Coming Out Over The Holidays

[Prysm]

My husband (who is a youth pastor at a large church) and I are planning to come out over Christmas. We feel we should talk to our families in person (at different times), and there is no other time that we would see them since they both live hours away. Both of our families are very proud of our position in the church, and they are deeply involved in their own local christian communities. On top of that, we're planning on talking to his boss this Sunday night to explain our change of perspective and negotiate moving out of employment at the church. We just can't wait any longer. I'm sure you all understand. Unfortunately, a job isn't just a job when you work in a church, but a matter of personal connection and friendship. Our entire social network of friends, family, community, and work is intimately connected to the christian worldview. We really don't want to ruin the holidays for anyone, and I'm afraid it's going to be unavoidable. Not to mention, this is probably the most difficult and uncertain time ever for us, as we are risking our financial security and support network.

 

So, for those of you who have experience with this, any advice? If you were visiting one family for five days, would you tell them right away, the day you were leaving, or sometime in the middle? We're working on a website to help explain our decision, since the news will probably travel much faster than we can personally explain it to everyone.

 

Also, a question for former church workers: how do you deal with those who previously looked up to you for spiritual advice and support? How do you respond if/when they solicit an explanation? We don't have any interest in anti-evangelizing, but we don't want to play coy games, either. We've had our share of dancing around issues. There are literally hundreds of people who saw us as spiritual leaders... how do we exit gracefully? I do realize that is like asking how to commit arson elegantly, but if it can be done, we're interested.

 

Thanks for creating this site. Maybe in a few weeks we'll be posting our stories.

[Etchison]

I am amazed. I am impressed. What you're doing is remarkable.

 

I realize you probably feel very bad about all the people you are going to hurt, but please feel assured that the pain you cause them might ultimately be to their benefit--and will far outweight the damage you are causing yourself and others by continuing to live a lie.

 

Now, as far as doing it elegantly? Your metaphor for arson is a good one. It's not easy.

 

This question is getting asked more and more on this forum. The response I usually give is this one: Keep your statements focused on how you feel. Because how you feel cannot be argued with, and it is always valid. If you say "I'm leaving Christianity because of all the factual inconsistencies in the Bible," you just opened yourself to ad nauseum debate. If you say, "I don't feel good about my faith anymore." You might still get some debate, but no one will tell you that you don't feel that way.

 

One thing I've used was that the Bible says "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." But if you aren't free, then logically ... you don't know the truth.

 

Your question about whether or not to make your statement at the beginning, middle, or end of a 5 day visit ... my first inclination is to make it a 2-day visit! But if you're stuck for 5 days, I would do it toward the end, but not at the very end. Doing it at the very end might send the message that you are afraid to talk about it or face them. But doing it at the beginning means putting a big wet blanket over the whole five days. YOU might feel better, but your family will feel bad. Maybe in the middle? I'm sure you have the wisdom to "couch" the statement with reassurance that you still love your family, etc. It might not help in the short run, but it will be remembered. No matter what you do, be prepared for some push-back.

 

Also, it's really great that you two are in this together, because the aftermath of a deconversion can leave a person feeling very isolated. Make sure you get out and find new secular friends. Get involved in something (anything!) that will keep you involved with other people.

 

Good luck. I was in a very similar place when I deconverted. If you want to talk privately, feel free to e-mail me at jim@etchison.com

 

Everyone here will probably really want to hear your story. I know I do ...

[white_raven23]

Oooh.

 

First, I want to say that I'm proud of you, and impressed that you and your husband are ready to take this step together. Good for you!

 

But Second,

 

While it makes all the sense in the world to come out when everyone is all together, unfortunately, you may want to take the holiday season into account. It won't matter what you say...your doing THIS to your families at CHRISTMAS (family horror emphasis)!!! And that is all your families will remember.

 

It doesn't matter that the religion adopted the holiday, most people believe christianity invented it. It don't matter it's supposed to be a time of peace, we've been to the stores...peace my ass! And it won't matter how heartfelt and honest you want to be with your families....you are dropping a bomb on nerves that are likely already frazzled to the max. Even small things can set people off irrationally during the holidays...and coming out about leaving your religion is certainly no small thing.

 

Not to mention...religious people can feel easily provoked enough by nonbelievers. Coming out at Christmas...they could view you as attention-whores going for dramatics no matter what you say. Regardless of your intent...you families may come to view this as the year "Bob & Judy" decided to ruin Christmas for everyone. Which will likely be kindling to the fire of their upset over your change in faith. Meaning the likelihood of them reacting worse than otherwise is increased.

 

I assume you love and respect your family, and while it really is great you want to be honest with them all, I feel it would be wrong to just be like: "Hell yeah! Right on!" So perhaps we could brainstorm the best way to go about this...with your family's understanding of the holiday in mind. How do they go about it? Which ones of them emotionally have difficulties with the Holidays every year? How many family members are we talking about? How many kids? How do you traditionally celebrate? Do you open presents Christmas Eve or Day? When is Christmas Dinner?

 

All of these things become important considerations if you want to go about this during the holidays. So come back and tell us, so we know what is going on.

[Prysm]

Right, I should have clarified that. We will be seeing my family for five days over Christmas and his family sometime after New Years for a day or two. My family doesn't have any extended relatives that we see over the holidays and my brother already knows, so it's only my parents. They don't stress at all about holidays and this won't be any more public than any other time of the year. They're generous, loving people and I don't fear anger from them, only hurt.

 

My husband's parents are far more likely to stress over holidays, but we won't be seeing them right then. We will be talking to them early in January, and again, it won't be public. There will never be a good time to tell my MIL, as she has already hinted that I am leading my husband astray (it all started with Libertarianism and not wanting to reproduce). I'm most concerned that they will be in complete denial about my husband's part in our deconversion and will see me as the deceptive Eve in his life.

 

Honestly, the most difficult part of this will be Sunday night when we talk to my husband's boss and his wife. I don't want to ruin their Christmas but my husband can't put out his resume until they've done some negotiations about what the near future look like. I'm trying to see the upside to this, that everyone will have time off to process our news. We would love to avoid it, but I don't see another time that would work.

[white_raven23]

Right, I should have clarified that. We will be seeing my family for five days over Christmas and his family sometime after New Years for a day or two. My family doesn't have any extended relatives that we see over the holidays and my brother already knows, so it's only my parents. They don't stress at all about holidays and this won't be any more public than any other time of the year. They're generous, loving people and I don't fear anger from them, only hurt.

 

Okay...that's good. Where does Christmas fall during the 5 days? If you can wait until the day after, that would be best. You will have celebrated the holiday, shown your parents already that you do not look down your noses at their celebrations. If you can enlist your brother in this discussion, all the better. Talk to him about this beforehand...as the One-In-The-Family with prior knowledge of your deconversion, when and how you tell your parents becomes very important for him. You don't want him caught off guard. Even if he disagrees with you guys, it's the best idea. Gives you (and him) a chance to work out amongst yourselves HIS role in this. Whether or not he comes out knowing he had prior knowledge, or if he's going to make like this is the first he's heard of it (and that is important for you to know beforehand too, respect whatever role your Bro decides to play in this)

 

My husband's parents are far more likely to stress over holidays, but we won't be seeing them right then. We will be talking to them early in January, and again, it won't be public. There will never be a good time to tell my MIL, as she has already hinted that I am leading my husband astray (it all started with Libertarianism and not wanting to reproduce). I'm most concerned that they will be in complete denial about my husband's part in our deconversion and will see me as the deceptive Eve in his life.

 

Good. This will be post-christmas. And I have bad news for you. I hate to tell you this...but you are going to be the Jezebel even if your husband throws his virgin baby sister to the floor and starts fondling her. Somehow...it's your fault. They will ALWAYS be in denial about your respective roles in YOUR marriage. They will get less bitter...but you guys will have to be married about 40 years first. You have to accept that their being in denial is totally out of your power. What you and your husband do however, is not. You need to talk to hubby about this. It is vital that he support, and be supportive of you. You don't need him (or you) flying in the face of his family...but the understanding that when things get hot...the BOTH of you are walking out that door with HIM LEADING YOU must be established. Your husband has to know that he has to back you up, that you cannot effectively do so in this instance (you really cannot). He cannot just sit there silent while YOU drop the bomb. tT has to come from him, or you are prepared to accept they will be in ignorance for another year.

 

And this isn't about you being 'the girl'. It's because it's HIS family that is going to potentially create a rift. If it were YOUR family, I'd be telling you the ball was your responsibility.

 

Honestly, the most difficult part of this will be Sunday night when we talk to my husband's boss and his wife. I don't want to ruin their Christmas but my husband can't put out his resume until they've done some negotiations about what the near future look like. I'm trying to see the upside to this, that everyone will have time off to process our news. We would love to avoid it, but I don't see another time that would work.

 

The best way to deal with is to avoid all religious discussion. This is not about religion, or faith, or what anyone believes. This is about work. And make the discussion SOLELY about work. I know these people are your friends, and you want to tell them where you stand...but right now is about your husbands job. I would not tell these people anything about where you stand religiously for quite some time. At least...not until after your husband has a new job. Seriously...you do NOT piss off someone you plan to put on a resume! As for why he is leaving his job at the church? It conflicts with high paying work opportunities. And now is NOT the time to announce you are leaving the church entirely! Lots of people attend a church without being employees of the church, as far as his current Boss needs to know...this is all that is happening. Sure...it will be sad for the congregation...but sadder still if you guys become charity cases for your former church because your husband can't get a job (for SOME reason), and you've got self-righteous former friends preaching at you as they hand over much needed cans of Pork n' Beans.

[Prysm]

Honestly, the most difficult part of this will be Sunday night when we talk to my husband's boss and his wife. I don't want to ruin their Christmas but my husband can't put out his resume until they've done some negotiations about what the near future look like. I'm trying to see the upside to this, that everyone will have time off to process our news. We would love to avoid it, but I don't see another time that would work.

 

The best way to deal with is to avoid all religious discussion. This is not about religion, or faith, or what anyone believes. This is about work. And make the discussion SOLELY about work. I know these people are your friends, and you want to tell them where you stand...but right now is about your husbands job. I would not tell these people anything about where you stand religiously for quite some time. At least...not until after your husband has a new job. Seriously...you do NOT piss off someone you plan to put on a resume! As for why he is leaving his job at the church? It conflicts with high paying work opportunities. And now is NOT the time to announce you are leaving the church entirely! Lots of people attend a church without being employees of the church, as far as his current Boss needs to know...this is all that is happening. Sure...it will be sad for the congregation...but sadder still if you guys become charity cases for your former church because your husband can't get a job (for SOME reason), and you've got self-righteous former friends preaching at you as they hand over much needed cans of Pork n' Beans.

 

Good points about the families, thanks! As for the boss... we're more concerned about hurting him than making him angry. He's probably the least vengeful person I've ever met, and I know he'll think giving a bad reference would make our return to the faith less likely. We can't leave without saying anything, because no one will buy the "higher paying job" bit (we're planning to join the Peace Corps when I finish my graduate degree, it's out of character) and if we simply disappear, there will be hordes of well-meaning people concerned about us. There are only two things they would think: we are emotionally hurt and need compassion, or we have fallen into some horrendous sin. I'm pretty sure we would be rooted out eventually either way. Also, there are hundreds of teenagers prepared to launch a text message/email/facebook onslaught when their favorite youth pastor mysteriously disappears mid-semester. It's unavoidable. We would either have to continue living a lie, or face the truth shamefully after ineffectively trying to hide it. We've gone over all the scenarios.

 

We really haven't been hurt by the church at all, other than a few peripheral aggravations. Our friends aren't self-righteous or preachy, and many of them already know about our decision. The church staff is a supportive community and we're pretty certain they'll be far busier trying to win us back with love and affection than trying to drive us out or punish us through blackmail. This isn't a hellfire and brimstone, vindictive, aggressive place. We're more afraid of the imminent tears and mourning than lectures or sermons.

[white_raven23]

I must be missing something. Seems like joining the Peace Corps would be perceived as a highly approvable, even christian thing to do. Even if your faith were absolute, you'd STILL be leaving these people to join the Corps...right? And why would that be out of character? How long have you known all these people?

[Prysm]

The Peace Corps would be a very nice exit strategy, but that isn't happening for a long time, since I have to graduate and the application process takes forever. You don't quit a job a year and a half before you leave the country, and we simply can't stick around for any longer. Leaving would be even more questionable since they know our plans and would want to know why we wouldn't just stay at a secure job until then.

 

We really don't want to be under the table about this whole thing. It's not a small town, but is sure isn't big enough to get ourselves lost in and word is already getting around. We've known them for 4 years, some of them for 6. It would be out of character because my husband loves his job and is absolutely wonderful at it, and we were the ones who were nagging at the church to do more service and social justice (which is part of the Peace Corps decision). We really didn't want christianity to disintegrate before our eyes, and we tried our best to make it work. But, we can't change things to suit what we want. Our church experience wasn't traumatic and our deconversion wasn't terribly emotional. It isn't easy realizing that there is no loving god who cares, there is no "great plan" for your life, and heaven isn't waiting to welcome you into an eternity of bliss. However, if I only have one life, I'm not going to spend any more of it in a carefully constructed web of lies.

[PocketAces]

My husband (who is a youth pastor at a large church) and I are planning to come out over Christmas. We feel we should talk to our families in person (at different times), and there is no other time that we would see them since they both live hours away. Both of our families are very proud of our position in the church, and they are deeply involved in their own local christian communities. On top of that, we're planning on talking to his boss this Sunday night to explain our change of perspective and negotiate moving out of employment at the church. We just can't wait any longer. I'm sure you all understand. Unfortunately, a job isn't just a job when you work in a church, but a matter of personal connection and friendship. Our entire social network of friends, family, community, and work is intimately connected to the christian worldview. We really don't want to ruin the holidays for anyone, and I'm afraid it's going to be unavoidable. Not to mention, this is probably the most difficult and uncertain time ever for us, as we are risking our financial security and support network.

 

So, for those of you who have experience with this, any advice? If you were visiting one family for five days, would you tell them right away, the day you were leaving, or sometime in the middle? We're working on a website to help explain our decision, since the news will probably travel much faster than we can personally explain it to everyone.

 

Also, a question for former church workers: how do you deal with those who previously looked up to you for spiritual advice and support? How do you respond if/when they solicit an explanation? We don't have any interest in anti-evangelizing, but we don't want to play coy games, either. We've had our share of dancing around issues. There are literally hundreds of people who saw us as spiritual leaders... how do we exit gracefully? I do realize that is like asking how to commit arson elegantly, but if it can be done, we're interested.

 

Thanks for creating this site. Maybe in a few weeks we'll be posting our stories.

 

i really don't know what to say.

 

it is bad taste to wait till the holidays to tell your family you don't believe in Christianity anymore. that doesn't show too much respect, care, or for lack of better word, discernment to the family members. if it is such a need of importance, you'd tell them already. over the phone, or on a visit that is not for the holidays. you'd use the best measure that you can with your situation to tell them, not wait for the holidays to come just because it is convient because you'll see them.

 

but this is just me. i live hours away from my mother. i told her in person on her last visit. only because she asked me about it. because instead of laying it on her fully, i gave her signs that i've changed. mentioned The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins that i bought and love. mentioned about an atheist forum i was going to at the time(different than this one). mentioned feelings and thoughts i have towards religious beliefs that have affected our family life in a certain way with something that we're going through currently. see my sister was raped for years by her grandfather and we found out last year. so my mother called up the grandmother and asked about this. the only thing the grandmother could say was, "well i have to do what my pastor says, forgive him so i can go to heaven." needless to say, i had a hay day with that and i went off. reason for bringing that up is just more ways that i gave my mother signs that i've changed. so when she asked me about this change, she had reason to and it was easier to tell her.

 

my father on the other hand, we just started talking again. not over this. but he lives about an hour away from me. as far as i know he doesn't know but he showed signs that he knew. he said to me, "i didn't know you had a facebook account?" how he found out i don't know but on my facebook account, it says atheist for religion. the he goes on talking about the bible with a topic he brought up, and he then said, "i won't get into the Bible with you Joe." so i'm thinking he knows, accidently, but i'm not 100 percent sure.

 

holidays are coming up, i'll be spending time with him and the last thing i'm getting into is the change i've been through. i don't get to see him that much. i don't want to start up an argument, or make the holidays bad. i feel in no way that i'm lieing to him because you ought to hear me talk. i for sure don't have godly language, and two, i'm critical of the church religious beliefs and i can be very verbal about it, if certain topics come up. and the holidays to me, are meant to be with your family and those you care for, be it your lover or your friends. you cook good food, open up gifts and have a holiday time. its not a time to sit down and take the risk of disappointing someone. now if it comes up, i would never lie, and i'm not advising to lie here. but i would advise to not make an effort to tell them and just wait. if they ask you about it, then yea, answer the truth, but there's no reason in my opinion to specifically bring it up over the holidays out of convience. you have a telephone, pick it up and call them and tell them. the telephone is amazing for this because, you can give subtle signs, and hints, and leave it to them if they are that curious to bring it up. are the holidays the ONLY time out of the whole year you see your family?

 

i'm not meaning to be a prick here so i hope your not taking my post in that kind of manner. but if you don't see your family that much for whatever reason, do you really want to leave those few times that you get to spend with them, possibly leaving it on a bad note just simply because you don't believe in some jew or in some god idea anymore? is telling them, on the holidays really worth it, when this may be the last time you see them for a long time again and if your fears come true, you tell them, and it goes bad, your leaving them on a bad note and is it worth it? (sorry to repeat the worth part but its my main point.) with distance between you and your family, i'd advise to tell them over the phone. let that give them time to let it sink in, that way, you lower the chance for them to react overly emotional in person and then in person, you just may have a better time of explaining it to them. they are going to look at you different, that's a good thing in my opinion. they are looking at a different person, so they need look at you differently and just let it all sink in while apart. i just highly advise to not start it over the holidays.

 

 

you asked what do you do when they solicit an explaination, well to me its simple. if they ask you about it, and you answer, and then they ask for a reason, you give it to them. my opinion is one better be careful what they ask for. this is another reason why i don't just lay it fully on people. i let people ask about it, or i give signs of changes. because then, if they are offended by my responses, its their own fault. if i would just blatantly lay it on them for no reason, then its my fault for offending them and i don't want to be the one that is to blame for offending anyone, ESPECIALLY my family. but if they ask, well, they get what they asked for. if you they don't like the answer, then all i can say is, they should have never asked.

 

just my thoughts on the matter, and i hope your not offended in any way.

[hereticzero]

If you are going to reveal your beliefs in public, I would let my family know in advance so they do not feel neglected. There will be strong resistance so be prepared.

[Prysm]

If you are going to reveal your beliefs in public, I would let my family know in advance so they do not feel neglected. There will be strong resistance so be prepared.

 

 

This is exactly why it has to be over the holidays. If we don't talk to them NOW it will only be weeks, if that, before they find out from another source. A pastor can't leave a job and church then just "drop hints" that he's lost faith and hope people pick up on them. It sort of has to be public. Are there any former pastors or clergy who have any experience with this?

 

It sounds like everyone else here has had terrible experiences talking to their parents. I really cannot see my parents acting out. When I was sixteen I told them I didn't like god and didn't want to go to church anymore, and if they left me alone I might go back. They left me alone and I did go back. Granted, that was me as a whiny teenager, but still. There were no hysterics the first time and I don't foresee anything crazy this time. They've always placed the utmost importance on communication and being open, and I think the worst possible thing I could do would be to leave them to hear it from another source or just give them a phone call right after we leave. They'll probably cry and pray for us after we've left, but at least I'll be able to hug them and tell them that we are still good people and love them, and we'll have as long as we need to talk. Besides, they believe "once saved always saved" so there's no hellfire involved in this. They're definitely of the persuasion that you can "love people into heaven."

 

PocketAces, don't worry, no hard feelings. All you can do it give advice from your experience and hope it works for mine. I get that. I feel terrible for anyone who thinks they won't go to heaven just because they haven't forgiven someone. Who could ever make it? It sounds like your environment is much harsher. I hope your sister doesn't believe the same thing, I can't imagine what that would to do someone suffering from sexual abuse.

[william]

Just my two cents

 

Since you are a pastor, you'll know more about the reactions when you make it public. But I was wondering though if the want of change of enviroment qualifies as a reason, to change jobs? Surely your boss has less to object about, as oppose to you losing faith. Furthermore, use the reasoning 'that by gaining more experiences, in the outside world, you can bring more wisdom, when you come back to the church.' Since this is about a job, then keep it that way. I am not trying to tell you to lie, so to speak, but just a more gentle exit. I read that your boss is very good to you, or you care about him as a friend. I really believe that this is the most graceful exit. Besides you're going to join the Peace Corps, at least use that as a leverage for leaving the church job and learn more about the 'outside.' Just say you want to 'explore' before you join.

 

But then again, I'm not particularly qualified to say much, becaus my deconversion was unemotional, though the coming out was kinda sour. Even then the coming out was via email with a particular relative. So my case is nothing in comparison

[mwc]

over the phone

I can tell you that blurting it out over the phone is about the worst way possible to do this. You probably didn't mean "blurt" when you said this but since that's how I did it I can say from experience that this is a horrific way to do this. Well, unless you want your mom to break out in sobbing and start going on about hell and all that...then it's quite brilliant. I found it lacking on many levels. Sadly, there's no "undo" in life.

 

I broke my own "rules" (as I don't have any hard and fast rules) for this type of thing. One major thing is that you (the generic "you" not you specifically) has had plenty of time to think and adapt to the current state of affairs. The deconversion has had to time sink in. Blind-siding someone just sucks. It's unfair. Especially since, for some reason, we then expect them to take it all in and go on as if nothing has changed. Like they've had the same amount of time, and information, to deal with it as we have. To turn to us and just throw open their arms and say "Good for you! How about a hug?" As xians we would never do such a silly thing. We'd react with shock and horror. Just as they do but we don't allow them that response. We want acceptance. And when it doesn't come (in most cases) we're upset. How unrealistic. We at least need to be prepared to give answers even if they're to questions we don't want to answer since that's what would happen if the situation were reversed. It's really to diffuse the situation a bit more than anything. Just look how xians get treated here when they drive-by. Now imagine that in your own house. Same type of thing.

 

Anyhow, I didn't mean to type all this here since it's not directed at PA but more to the OP and it's not very well thought out at that (not that many of my posts are ).

 

mwc