Love Yourself - Hate Yourself - Huh?

[PatrickB]

The main commandments that Jesus gave people (according to a book) was to:

 

Mark 12:29-31

29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

 

Give me some Christian responses to the questions these verses pose.

 

1. We don't live in Israel in the first place, so what's with that?

2. How can we love anything with our heart? It pumps blood, the last time I checked.

3. Love God, an invisible entity with no real proof of existence, with our "soul" which is also invisible and not proven to be real.

4. Love God, the invisible entity, with all my mind? That means there would be no possibility for other thoughts to go on in my mind.

5. Love God, the still invisible entity, with all my strength? That will leave me physically lifeless, as well as already being mentally lifeless.

 

AND THE BIG QUESTION:

6. How in the real world can you love your neighbor as yourself, when you aren't supposed to love yourself?

 

This one opens a huge can of worms. The bible teaches that everyone is inherently evil, and that thoughts are evil, which then falls into hating or disliking oneself because we aren't up God's standards and never will be. Where is the love in this? You can't love someone as yourself, because your own SELF is wicked and awful.

 

I'd actually like to hear a Christian's responses to this. Or if you could come up with apologetic answers to these, it could be fun.

 

When I was a Christian, it posed an unsolvable dilemma for me. I hated myself, died to myself, and feared everyone that wasn't a "true" Christian. Then I had to repent all of the time for having those feelings. *scream*

[Looking4Answers]

I'm no longer a Christian, but I can try to tackle this (to some degree).

 

Q. 1. We don't live in Israel in the first place, so what's with that?

 

A. Jesus is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4. While the Deuteronomy verse was spoken to Israel, it became the cornerstone of Judaism and its belief in monotheism. Jesus is merely referencing this verse and, as such, it does not necessitate one living in Israel or being a part of the people of Israel to understand it.

 

Q. 2. How can we love anything with our heart? It pumps blood, the last time I checked.

 

A. Even in our culture we use the word "heart" to mean several things. When we say something like, "Let's get to the heart of the matter" we are obviously not talking about the blood pump. Instead, we are using the word "heart" to talk about the "core" or "center" or the most important part. Thus, the verse you reference is using "heart" in this manner.

 

Q. 3. Love God, an invisible entity with no real proof of existence, with our "soul" which is also invisible and not proven to be real.

 

A. A Christian would believe there is proof of god's existence and that of the soul as well. But the concept of what is being said is easy to understand. People are being asked to love god with all that they are, including even the "soul". The soul was considered to be that which sets the human apart from the animal kingdom. There was the body (and animals had that). There was the life force (and animals had that, too) and there was the soul (which many believed the animals did not have). The soul has been understood, by some, to be where a man reasoned. As such, using the word "soul" here is like reiterating the word "heart".

 

Q. 4. Love God, the invisible entity, with all my mind? That means there would be no possibility for other thoughts to go on in my mind.

 

A. No. This would mean that every thought would have to be one that would align with loving god. It would mean that if I watched a program, for example, that I would not choose to watch a program that would cause god to be unhappy. Think of it this way, if I knew that my wife hated opera, I would not sit down with her and force her to watch opera with me. Why? Out of love. The concept here is the same.

 

Q. 5. Love God, the still invisible entity, with all my strength? That will leave me physically lifeless, as well as already being mentally lifeless.

 

A. Again, no. This simply means that every endeavor should have god at its core ... its center. The believer is to spare no strength in doing that which demonstrates his love for god. He or she is to fashion the very existence of their life after those things that please god and refrain from those things that displease him.

 

Q. 6. How in the real world can you love your neighbor as yourself, when you aren't supposed to love yourself?

 

A. The Bible does not say to not love yourself and it does not say that you should hate yourself. It says that others are to be loved more and the interests of others are to be placed ahead of your own.

 

To sum up the verse in question:

 

Basically what is recorded in the verse you quote is a summation of the 10 commandments. To not murder is to love your neighbor as yourself because you don't want to be murdered, right? So don't murder someone else. To not steal is to love your neighbor as yourself because you don't want to have your things stolen, right? The first three commandments deal with god and they are placed first. This is the "love god" part.

 

Now, I am not a Christian, but I walked in those circles for a long time, taught the Bible, etc and that is why I tried to answer your questions from a somewhat Christian perspective. I agree, we should not pour our love into a god that is not real. I was not trying to say that god is real, but only trying to show you how Christians may deal with your questions.

[PatrickB]

Hmm, nicely put.

 

Those were similar rationalizations I used to make. But they are all circular in nature and made me literally so mindless that I would walk around in circles, unable to function.

 

I still think that a person has to jump through way too many hoops just to understand simple sentences. But, I the "love your neighbor as yourself" thing used to really get at me. Still does.

 

I understand fully that the bible does not explicitly tell one to hate oneself. That's a given. But I couldn't help it when I was a Christian. In any case, according to the bible, you aren't supposed to love yourself. Breaking the word "love" down into something basic like not wanting someone to kill you, therefore you wouldn't kill them, is pretty far out there. There's no love in that whatsoever. Not wanting someone to starve to death isn't love, either. Verbally abusing others with the fear of hell and Satan being isn't love. So much anti-love in the bibley. *screams louder*

[Neon Genesis]

A. The Bible does not say to not love yourself and it does not say that you should hate yourself. It says that others are to be loved more and the interests of others are to be placed ahead of your own.

What about Luke 14:26?

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

There's one thing though about this verse about the greatest commandments. If the greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor as yourself, wouldn't these commandments trump all the other commandments in the bible as being insignificant in comparison as long as we love our neighbor and love God?

[mwc]

What about Luke 14:26?

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

There's one thing though about this verse about the greatest commandments. If the greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor as yourself, wouldn't these commandments trump all the other commandments in the bible as being insignificant in comparison as long as we love our neighbor and love God?

The apologetic answer is that the verse uses the word "miseo" which can mean "to love less." So in that verse it doesn't mean "hate" in the plain sense but simply love "jesus" more than these others and even yourself. If you're not prepared to do that, well, then "jesus" doesn't want you. Isn't that a kick in the pants? Sure is. Even the "nice" interpretation is crappy when you really think about it. You will alway come in 2nd (at best) to an imaginary friend.

 

Moving on with apologetics the answer gets "better" (depending on your point of view). The word is "miseo." It has a number of different uses. One does, in fact, mean "to love less" and it's based on context. It's used as the antithesis of a word for love. The verse in question doesn't use that word so the point becomes moot. Right? Well, that's not so easy. It's down to interpretation. Does the author intend for the word "hate" to be the antithesis of the word "love" here? If he did then "to love less" is the proper way to interpret this. If not then "hate" is the way to go. The surrounding verses all have to do with "completion." Getting things done. Taking up crosses. Making plans. Going to war against greater armies. Giving up all your possessions. Seeing things through to the end. And then there's this verse about "hate." Something standing in your way. That thing is their family and even their own life. It seems to me that with the surrounding examples this isn't about being the antithesis of "love" but truly "hate." You must choose. And if these obstacles are in your way then they must be dealt with. Ultimately to the point of being a martyr. This isn't a nice section about being a humble little servant but giving everything, up to and including your own life, for this cause. However, xians want to have a nice, friendly, "jesus" who keeps families together (despite saying he came to divide) and so it simply means "to love less" in spite of the context.

 

Additionally, and non-apologetically, every other NT use of the specific form of that word found in Luke 14:26 is translated as "hate" (or some tense) and it means "hate" usually in a very strong sense of the word. It's only in this verse in Luke that people try to wiggle out of both the context and the other uses of that identical form of the word. These verses all have the same word form if you want to look for yourself John 3:20;7:7,15:18,19,23; 1 John 3:13 (they may also contain other forms as well if they state the word more than once but I didn't feel like quoting them all for just this point).

 

mwc

[PiracyOfTheHead]

Hey Patrick, my friend. How are you faring these days???

 

I wanted to point something out, that I think may help. I hope it does.

 

I think you are really trying to grapple with the contradictions and apparent contradictions in Xtianity and it is obvious you suffered from self hatred because of things the bible stated, things you were told that may or may not been true or even some personal misunderstandings, but rightly so, the bible is a complicated web that its own adherents cant agree on.

 

So you are correct, a firm case for anti humanism can be built on scripture alone, and then there are verses that claim you should love yourself....it is very confusing and i know the pain you are speaking of, I hope you are breaking through it in this thread.

 

One thing I have noticed though, about myself is I will get fired up to fight with Xtians then later realize I just want to break down and weep because I am simply sad that god let me down, and that jesus isnt carrying me in his arms down the beach.....and all the heartache that we have all felt.

 

YOU know YOU better than anybody, you do what you have to do, but I feel a kinship with ya my brother and sometimes I feel like I know whats going on with you and i dont understand that because Im not that smart. I just say shit and hope it helps you because I care about you....youre a great guy and youre fucking suffering and it pisses me off and I want to do more to help....but I also dont want to intrude and be bossy, Im really working on my communication skills, they suck.

 

I just see you working out this issues and you're trying so hard, A+ for effort, seriously, you've confronted your mother, you've confronted your pastor, you have been open and honest with all of us here, you're one of the most sincere people I have ever come in contact with.

 

You still got my back right???? Ive been making mistakes left and right lately, getting all defensive or saying snappy things at people, I wasn't living the love and I am tring to remedy that, I kinda regressed to the attitude of my Xtian days of apologetics and having that 24/7 defensive-know it all attitude, thank the stars some of my friends on here kicked me in the ass a few times and showed me the error of my ways....I wish you were on more to talk with you have been gone a lot.

 

Well tell me how its going, I think this topic was answered very well by the previous posters, I cant add anything to it, I know where you are coming from and I also know the Xtian answers...every damned one of them I think.

 

Take care brother, PM me too, I have a couple links I want to send you anyways.

 

Peace

[Neon Genesis]

The apologetic answer is that the verse uses the word "miseo" which can mean "to love less." So in that verse it doesn't mean "hate" in the plain sense but simply love "jesus" more than these others and even yourself. If you're not prepared to do that, well, then "jesus" doesn't want you. Isn't that a kick in the pants? Sure is. Even the "nice" interpretation is crappy when you really think about it. You will alway come in 2nd (at best) to an imaginary friend.

I love how fundies claim to follow the bible literally, yet this one verse they claim is metaphorical. They should either follow the bible literally or not, but if they're going to follow it literally and proclaim that every word is the perfect and literal word of God, they can't just turn around and say any verses that are inconvenient to accept is metaphorical. And if fundies believe this verse is metaphorical for putting Jesus first, why is it that they still follow this verse literally anyway, just that they cherry pick when they want to? Accepting this verse as metaphorical doesn't stop the xtians from hating any of their family members that's not a xtian or even hating other xtians who don't agree with their beliefs. So, xtians do take this verse literally contrary to their claims. They just pick and choose which of their family members they want to hate when it's convenient for them.