How Do You Deal With Loose Ends?

[Kathlene]

I have a story to tell, and I would love some insight into it and advice. It is in regards to my former christian life, and now tying up the loose ends of it that are coming back to bite me in the butt.

 

I will try to keep the details short and to the point. My parents divorced when I was 2. I am a younger sibling of 4 children. My two older sisters went to live with my father and my brother and I were raised with my mother. My upbringing was a mangled mess, and honestly I don't know how I survived it. My mother married 4 times, and my father was an abusive alcoholic who also abused my sisters. Suffice to say, that by the time I was 10, my two sisters came to live with my Mother, step father and my brother and I. I never ever saw my father again. By the age of 22 I became a gunho born-again christian and started down the path of being cleansed and healed of every thing you can imagine.

 

Naturally I had some confusing thoughts about who this loving father god was supposed to be in my life now. I hadn't actually ever encountered a loving father so the notion was a little unsettling. By the time I was 25 I felt "led' by god to go and see my father, and hopefully lead him down the path of true repentance and righteousness. The experience was weird. I told him he needed to be accountable for his actions, repent and believe in Jesus, yada yada. I felt like I had this big promise from god that my family would be repaired of all the hurt it endured. Of course nothing came of it. I saw him a few more times over the years, and of course ranted on about god and forgiveness, etc... Eventually I stopped seeing him, as I thought god would just end up magically doing it all for me and make him repent and we could all get on with our lives. Fast track to now, where I am 35yrs old. My sister made contact with him, and then I did too. It is strange. He has asked if I am still into that born again stuff. I told him, no I am not. Now my problem is where do I go with this now? I have so many questions about it all. We are re-establishing contact again, and there is so much to say to each other. Is he still accountable for his actions 25yrs ago, and to who? I know he is to us children. But now I am not a christian anymore, I feel like this is biting me again. If I was a christian I would of said, hooray god is working the miracle out the way he said he would. Where do morals fit in all this. Is he now not accountable to anyone for his actions? Does he need to repent, and to whom. I feel so confused.

 

I feel like I am standing outside a maximum prison and life is all before me, but a part of me wants to run back into that prison because it was safer, and it made sense, and I could fit life and morals into a square box. Now I feel free with rational thought, and this heavy weight isnt pressing in on my brain anymore. I can make my own decisions now, and I am the only one responsible for it. Its scary facing the big wide world out there, having to make my own worldview. The christian worldview has had such a vicious grip in my brain for so long. What do I tell my father now? Its embarrassing to see people again that you have tried to convince to become christians, and now I have to eat my words, because I don't believe in it anymore. Sometimes life as a christian was easier, because here it is...you don't have to think, its all done for you. Wow. What a revelation that is to me. I don't even know why I am posting this. I feel like I am lost and aimless in this decoversion process. Its not as easy as anyone would think. How can you just walk away from longtime beliefs and shake your hands and move on. It is such a heavy grip. I want my own thoughts. I just want a bit of support from people who have gone through the process themselves. I worry about my morals now. Will I go on a wild rebellious streak now I am free? How do I define those morals now. Do I have to answer to anyone for them now.Aaagh so many things to realign in my brain. Sorry, I didn't mean for this to drag on so much. I would appreciate any thoughts or support or answers anyone would have. Cheers, Kathlene.

[pitchu]

Kathlene, here are some thoughts. Take what seems right and discard whatever doesn't fit.

 

Most deconverts go through a lot of muddlement over various issues, many times struggling to find the authentic framework for a moral and ethical view once xianity is discarded. This doesn't mean that all elements of moral "law" within xianity are necessarily wrong or no longer useful, but it may take a while to pick through what one has been taught and to re-organize old principles and new ones. You may want to take your time before coming on full-force with anybody (including yourself) regarding how you judge behaviors.

 

However, some behaviors are pretty clearly right or wrong within the framework of almost anybody's moral code, and abusing one's children is probably near the top of the list of clear-cut wrong behavior.

 

It's understandable that you might feel embarrassed and even apologetic about once taking a fundy tack with your father over his behaviors but, really, whatever tack you took then or would take now or would take in the future would have the same goal: to get him to come to a reckoning for the crimes he committed. His condemnation of your earlier words don't in the least outweigh the wrongness of his actions. So who has the greater responsibility to apologize and to start to set things right?

 

Sorting through the issues to find what's fundamental in one's family relationship(s) is key -- it keeps one from getting caught up in the kinds of superficial issues which controlling people love to use to sidetrack, avoid, and to relieve their guilt.

 

Not everything has equal weight in family interaction.

 

Good luck to you!

[R. S. Martin]

A basic principle I learned is: You can do whatever you like so long as you don't hurt yourself or anyone else.

 

Given that I care so much that the people around me are happy and that everyone is treated fairly, I find this to provide the basis for a comprehensive moral system. Some people disagree that it works for them.

 

When I was preparing for a critical meeting with a church leader regarding my deconversion, I was at the same place you are. I had been taught that there would be no morals to guide me. But I found a core value impressing itself on my consciousness. This core value was that: No matter what happens I want to be respectful. I have not always lived up to that in all times and situations since but I think I did for that meeting. I agree with pitchu that you will find your own values with time.

[florduh]

Forgive your father for your own sake. Beyond that, people, family or not, must earn love and respect. He was an unfit parent who did terrible things. You might be best served by just moving on with your life. You can never create the bond you didn't get in childhood.

[chefranden]

I would agree that it would be easier to confront your father as a Christian, because you can lay the anger off on God. You don't have to say, "Hey, I'm pissed because you hurt me and the rest of the kids." Now you have to be direct, and that is not so easy. I'd wait for a bit if I were you.

 

This deconversion isn't instant. Remember "it's not a religion its a relationship"? Well it's sort of true. You don't step away from relationships without wounds and tears. You've got to give them time to heal. In addition to the confusion you will probably experience the stages of grief especially the anger.

 

There is no magic pill for this. There is only sucking it up and moving on.

 

Don't worry about going off on some immoral spree. If you didn't do that as a Christian, you won't do it now. There is nothing magic about Christianity that kept you from being a bad person. If you weren't then you aren't now, because it was you all along.

[Kathlene]

Chefranden,

Don't worry about going off on some immoral spree. If you didn't do that as a Christian, you won't do it now. There is nothing magic about Christianity that kept you from being a bad person. If you weren't then you aren't now, because it was you all along."

 

 

Sorry, I am new at all this copying, pasting, quoting stuff. Anyway, I want to thank you so much for that encouragement. It hit me to the core reading that, and I realised it was true. I was so afraid that I would unleash this wild beast from within me concerning my morals, but now I think you are so dead right. It had been me all along for those years. If I did it then, I can still be that person now, and I get to pick and chose now what I want to keep or throw away. I am my own person now who can make decisions for myself concerning my life. I can trust my own brain to make them too. Thankyou everyone, your words were so encouraging.

[Guest DuWayne]

Hey Kathlene -

 

I am so with you, though my own experience is very different.

 

I met my biological father for the first time when I was eighteen. That was also the first time he ever laid eyes on me. He was still married, though separated, when he knocked up my mom, then cheated on her, when she was pregnant with me. The greatest "blessing" of my life, that. My dad adopted my half brother and I, when I was two, just before he married my mom.

 

By the time I met my genetic donor, I had been an extreme fundie, had fallen into sex and drugs, then moved back into fundie territory, though I was a very strange, pro-gay rights fundie by then. When I met my genetic donor, I did much the same thing, trying to get him to relinquish his pandering and accept Christ. I should note that as well as having a day job, he was the drummer in a top-forty band (his lifelong occupation). Because he lived in small town Kansas, even though he hated the music, it meant that he was in a top-forty country band.

 

The night that I made it into town, he was playing a gig in a dive bar. There was a very attractive waitress, about my age, who I was chatting up most of the evening. When he finished for the night, he got into chatting up the same girl. Had it not been my first time seeing him, I would have tried to go home with her. I quickly realized that it was only for the same reason that he wasn't trying to do the same. Worse, if it came down to it, I think he would have gotten her before I did. That's my genetic donor.

 

Where it really starts to differ, is that my genetic contributor decided that he should try to be a dad with me and I had rather serious objections to that, given that not only did I already have one, I had a really good one. And since then, the couple of times I wanted to try again, he seemed to want to play that role - so I finally gave up.

 

Its not as easy as anyone would think. How can you just walk away from longtime beliefs and shake your hands and move on. It is such a heavy grip.

 

Trust me, I know how you feel. I still have these moments of fear on occasion. I have moments when I just want the assurance I felt. I want the community I was a part of to still accept me the way they did. I want friends to trust me around their children, trust my child with his friends. I want the respect I garnered as a leader in my church. I want them to stop sending me emails and letters, explaining that I just need to do this, or try that and everything will be fine again. Most of all I want that certainty I felt, knowing the shape my life was to take, knowing that it was all a part of my god's plan. The last I really crave, as I am dealing with the very worse experience of my life right now.

 

But that certainty will never be there, no matter what I do. It was inconsistencies and my inability to reconcile what I know, with revealed religion that brought me here. I spent years trying to desperately hang on, finding everything I could that might make it all come together in a way that made sense, but I finally had to accept the hard truth - it doesn't make sense and never will.

 

So I focus on the good of it. I am no longer terrified that people I love and billions I don't, are going to suffer eternal damnation. Not because they're not decent people, but because they don't worship the right god, or don't worship the right god properly. I don't feel the drive to devote my life to helping save as many of those people as possible, from such a horrific fate. I am no longer prepared to give my life for bullshit.

 

And the really great thing I've discovered, is that I can still hold onto the very best that my faith made me. I can still walk in love towards the people around me. I can still help my neighbor and help a stranger on the street. I can still give myself to my community, both in microcosm and macrocosm. And the absolute best things about this aspect of who I am now - I can accept the credit for being who I am and the things that I do for others. I don't feel good for being a decent Christian, I feel absolutely wonderful about being decent human being who cares about others, simply because they're there.

 

I can happily say that I really care about you, because you're hurting. I wish that there was more I could do, than giving you these words and the time it's taken me to write them. But I have the hope that these few words will help, even if just a little. I know that some very dear strangers have had a few kind words for me, in what is the darkest point in my life and those words really have helped.

 

Even though there is no god to love you, I am a real, living person who does. And really, isn't that a bit more comforting than love from an abstraction? I mean in a sense, I'm an abstraction too, but I am actually sitting here - smiling, because I always smile when I have somebody else to love and care about.

[Kathlene]

DuWayne,

 

Thankyou so much for your reply. I understand your reasons for deconverting because they are the same ones I had. Nothing really added up. There were too many inconsistiencies, loop holes, cherry picking and whatever anyone wanted. I also feel like that burden has been lifted, worrying about all the billions of people who hadn't heard the "good news" yet. What a relief eh?

 

I hope you are ok going through this worst experience of your life stuff. Keep coming in here, reading how other people have pulled through, it helps. I am still in the process of working out a time to see my father. I know he will bring up the fact I am no longer a christian and have a good laugh. I still stand on the morals of a human being and whatever he did, he owes it to himself and his family to seek forgiveness. I won't hold my breath on that one though. It has been wonderful that people can come in here and encourage others who are going through the same process. I feel heaps better about my deconversion. There were some days that I too craved the familiarity of praying, listening to worship music, etc. Then I realised its okay, I can live my life without that stuff. I am me, and I can discover more of who I am without all that silly stuff anyway.

 

Once again, thanks. Cheers, Kathlene.

[Amethyst]

As far as morals, I live by a sort of modified version of the golden rule.

 

As long as it doesn't harm anyone, do as you wish. Of course, the definitions of "harm" and "anyone" can be debated to no end. But there's a lot of obvious things that can be considered harm. I figure as long as you don't do anything that might lead you to jail, you're okay.

[PocketAces]

I have a story to tell, and I would love some insight into it and advice. It is in regards to my former christian life, and now tying up the loose ends of it that are coming back to bite me in the butt.

 

I will try to keep the details short and to the point. My parents divorced when I was 2. I am a younger sibling of 4 children. My two older sisters went to live with my father and my brother and I were raised with my mother. My upbringing was a mangled mess, and honestly I don't know how I survived it. My mother married 4 times, and my father was an abusive alcoholic who also abused my sisters. Suffice to say, that by the time I was 10, my two sisters came to live with my Mother, step father and my brother and I. I never ever saw my father again. By the age of 22 I became a gunho born-again christian and started down the path of being cleansed and healed of every thing you can imagine.

 

Naturally I had some confusing thoughts about who this loving father god was supposed to be in my life now. I hadn't actually ever encountered a loving father so the notion was a little unsettling. By the time I was 25 I felt "led' by god to go and see my father, and hopefully lead him down the path of true repentance and righteousness. The experience was weird. I told him he needed to be accountable for his actions, repent and believe in Jesus, yada yada. I felt like I had this big promise from god that my family would be repaired of all the hurt it endured. Of course nothing came of it. I saw him a few more times over the years, and of course ranted on about god and forgiveness, etc... Eventually I stopped seeing him, as I thought god would just end up magically doing it all for me and make him repent and we could all get on with our lives. Fast track to now, where I am 35yrs old. My sister made contact with him, and then I did too. It is strange. He has asked if I am still into that born again stuff. I told him, no I am not. Now my problem is where do I go with this now? I have so many questions about it all. We are re-establishing contact again, and there is so much to say to each other. Is he still accountable for his actions 25yrs ago, and to who? I know he is to us children. But now I am not a christian anymore, I feel like this is biting me again. If I was a christian I would of said, hooray god is working the miracle out the way he said he would. Where do morals fit in all this. Is he now not accountable to anyone for his actions? Does he need to repent, and to whom. I feel so confused.

 

I feel like I am standing outside a maximum prison and life is all before me, but a part of me wants to run back into that prison because it was safer, and it made sense, and I could fit life and morals into a square box. Now I feel free with rational thought, and this heavy weight isnt pressing in on my brain anymore. I can make my own decisions now, and I am the only one responsible for it. Its scary facing the big wide world out there, having to make my own worldview. The christian worldview has had such a vicious grip in my brain for so long. What do I tell my father now? Its embarrassing to see people again that you have tried to convince to become christians, and now I have to eat my words, because I don't believe in it anymore. Sometimes life as a christian was easier, because here it is...you don't have to think, its all done for you. Wow. What a revelation that is to me. I don't even know why I am posting this. I feel like I am lost and aimless in this decoversion process. Its not as easy as anyone would think. How can you just walk away from longtime beliefs and shake your hands and move on. It is such a heavy grip. I want my own thoughts. I just want a bit of support from people who have gone through the process themselves. I worry about my morals now. Will I go on a wild rebellious streak now I am free? How do I define those morals now. Do I have to answer to anyone for them now.Aaagh so many things to realign in my brain. Sorry, I didn't mean for this to drag on so much. I would appreciate any thoughts or support or answers anyone would have. Cheers, Kathlene.

 

i'll give you my point through my own story.

 

my parents divorced back in 1990. my dad is on his 5th wife, and my mom has married 1x after they divorced in 1990, but went through who the fuck knows how many men since then and even before her 2nd marriage. my dad and i had a pretty rocky relationship when i was younger due to a lot of problems he had at the time. the law had to be called quite a few times on things he did, he grew drugs in the house my mother and him lived in, it was a mess for quite a few years. now that i'm older, i can look back at the rough situations my mom did inadvertantly put me through. the big one i remember when i was a young kid, how we went to this party of a friend of her's, and i distinctly remember laying on the couch scared because i was young and in a new place while my mom and her friend went and slept with a guy they had they knew. then some other things that happened to me when i was 13, mixed to how my sister was raped by her grandfather for roughly 4-5 years during visits, needless to say things on the family side have been, well, not the worst, or as bad as other people, but there were some very fucked up situations.

 

i remember coming to religion solely on the premise of "God the Father". all the years, i had a strong disdain towards my father. it took me till last year to finally wake my pathetic self up and realize that my dad is a great and wise man. i now hold such a high regard for the man. but for years prior, it was "God" or basically me in a way...a god defined by what i didn't have as a father, or wanted at the time as a father. that belief left me long before my faith left, but after that belief left, everything started not making sense with the idea of God to say the least. now, i just wish so much that i could go back in time and see my father for who he is, was.

 

my best advice is, for me, i remember quite well all the stupid bullshit that happened when i was younger. i can't change it, and it'll never go away, but its over and done with. and, letting go of views that create illusions for you to intoxicate yourself with, is dangerous to your mental and emotional well-being and dare i say growth.

 

for me atheism showed me how i was an irresponsible human being and thus i think it opened up my eyes to rational, logical and free-thinking and to basically fix up the mess that i let get the way it did, meaning with how i dealt with things, how i was emotionally, the way i dealt with my past etc. etc. for me life as an atheist is much simpler. because everything is on my head, and shoulders. i'm the one responsible. if i make a mistakes, its on me. there's no superficial rationalization of why sometimes we fuck up. sure there are things that i can't answer, big unknown stuff, but it was the same as when i was a Christian. there was no revelation to me in Christianity. just because some jew died on a cross for some sympathetic reason, just because some book taught ideas and views, that never fixed anything. i still sinned, i still didn't find a way to deal with my past, i still didn't find anything. no matter what idea of God i could either one create for myself or grab and hold on to, it never fixed anything. it reminds of the days i abused alcohol. it replaced the problem with an addiction which eventually will always become a problem within itself. to let that go, and to see clearer, of if you will "soberly", has been worth any kind of "loose end" that i may have now. my loose ends now are simply, where to take my worries? before, prayer was my key source to relieve my worries. now? i just deal with them, the way all of us should in my opinion and not run our problems to the creation of our own minds.

 

so don't fret. and if you have to tell your father you no longer believe you just tell him, and stand your ground respectfully, and don't worry about it. what's the worst that can happen? he be mad or upset? i suppose there's a price to pay if the time would come that one must be honest. my mother still doesn't like to hear how i'm atheist now, but she seems accepting to it, or at least i'm delusional to believe so. but don't pressure yourself to tell him, or even worry about it. is our deconversion story worth preaching about to people who believe be it family members to where it becomes a burden on us to talk about? i don't think so personally. its only worth telling if someone else wants to know and please know i'm meaning with this people that know you and are close to you and remember, your deconversion story is a story of how you became happier and honest. there is nothing to be ashamed or worried about to tell anyone, family or not. if they don't like it, they should have never asked in the first place right?

 

be honest with yourself, and i think that helps out the most with the beginning stages of deconversion. the biggest reason for me why i even became an atheist is because i had to be an honest to myself. of course there are multitudes of reasons why i'm atheist, but this is the foundational. there was no security that Christianity offered, no hope that Christianity offered that will ever again make me commit such an immoral autrocity against myself, as to lie to myself ever again. and i've wondered if i'd ever go back to believeing before. kind of like your analogy of getting out of a maxium prison, and you have your life looking ahead but your tempted to go back to the prison because its all you know. in this case, the only way i could go back is to lie to myself and delude myself into what i consider nonsense now. i can't lie to myself, so i think that's something, at least for me, has been the biggest thing to make my own deconversion process/story or whatever, actually pretty damn easy.

[Kathlene]

Pocket Aces,

 

Thankyou so much for your thoughtful reply. I agree with your sentiment that going back would be lying to yourself. I know too much now, and the fact is christianity is based on so much airy waffle. Nothing is sure and solid with it. I think that's why it messes up your head so much. Who can qualify that god is really speaking to them? And then apply that to other people? I only just realised how wonderful it is to make your own life, and like you said to be responsible for those actions. I sometimes get irrational thoughts that I won't be able to do a better job with my life than when I was a xtian. I know thats not true though, because all the time I was following god I was a confused mixed up mess. Now I am wholly responsible for myself. It's a little terrifying, but I realised all these millions of people out there who don't follow god have managed pretty well so far, so can I. I think that it the fear behind the so called relationship with god. I put so much of my entire life supposedly in his hands, that I forfeited my brain in the process.

 

Its been fabulous that people halfway across the globe have gone through the same thing, and they can understand all my thoughts now, because they have been there. I have just realised it is a nicer place to be in when you have no judgements on people and what they do. Having said that, I still think my father is responsible for his actions. I don't mean in a vengeful retribution way. He needs to acknowledge his own actions to his children and apologise. I let go years ago all the hurt and drama of my upbringing. The thing I struggle with now is the emptiness of not knowing what a loving father is. I am hoping we can repair our relationship and go from there. Get to know each other again. I would like to know who he is now I am an adult, and can view him as an adult. Not as a child absolutely terrified of him.

[PaulQ]

At times, it is necessary to break the ties that bind. If there is someone you can live without, then do so.

[Spiderwire]

Well, first of all, who am I? I am no one. So take that for what it's worth.

 

You've found yourself at a place where nothing makes sense. Now you're wondering what to do with this information and this realization. You can quit. That's an option. You can quit and no one would blame you for doing so. So that's choice Number One.

 

Choice Number Two is to keep moving forward. That's the shitty one.

 

You're not responsible for what your father did. Period. You're only responsible for the decisions you make and the choices that you've chosen. How does that hit you? You've probably made some really good ones in the past and you've, no doubt, made some that you regret. So keep moving forward. That's my advice to you. Keep rolling. Stay in the fight.

 

Life would be so good if we could rely on some magical cure. Life would be so good if we could rewind it and make it be like we wanted. But life isn't that way. It hurts to realize that it isn't. I can't imagine the hours and days that you've experienced... the heartache that you've been FORCED to endure. But that's the way it is. How wonderful it would be if it could be erased and for things to be as you want them. But that's not the way things are, is it? No.

 

That can be a crushing life event for you or it can be a light on the horizon. That's your choice! It's all up to you. Words on a screen are what I am to you, but I tell you to keep going. In spite of it all, keep going. Keep trying. The past is done. Over! It can't be rewound or undone. It is as it is. There's a lot of good life ahead of you. Seek it. Find it. It's there. Don't let your past - especially a past that you had nothing to do with - rule you. Set your standard. Follow it. You'll see that shit happens and we must go on. There is a lot of happiness awaiting you. Move toward it.

 

Best of luck to you. Above all else, hang in there.