Wonderingbread Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 So I have a myspace and its nothing special but I do have a bill hicks qoute that i think is pretty awesome, here it is... "A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back, he ever wants to see a fucking cross? Kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on, you know." - Bill Hicks Anyways this christian friend of mine who's also really devout and charismatic left me a comment which reads: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18" followed by, "make sense?" Since i haven't offically broken the news to alot of my closest christian friends, this is one of the first reponses that i've got regarding my lack of belief. So in the spur of the moment i decided to write him back in a sort of letter explaining myself. He hasn't replied yet but I wanted some of you guys here to read it and see if make any sense and perphaps suggest something I could add or take out, Here it is: "Hey, glad you took an interest in my myspace, your not the first haha Let me try to understand what your saying here... The verse you qouted does makes sense in the sense that it explains that believers absolutely need faith to make everything they're supposed to believe in, "make sense" while people without faith (the perished) are free to scoff at those beliefs because they simply can't/won't make themselves believe, i.e cognitive dissonance. So far that part does make sense. But the verse you qouted explains just that. It doesn't really prove one position wrong or right, but explains the situation. If that was your point than i should say i've already thought about that. Your probably gonna ask why I have thought about such things and am where I am. And so i have to honestly explain myself now. Here's goes an attempt at the the short version. I no longer believe in christianity and i know it probably pains you to see a friend and someone as previously committed as i was to fall away, but i can't live a lie anymore. You might say I have always been a weak christian but even you never knew me just a few years ago. Those who did, I think would seriously have a heart attack. I know that i was truly 'saved' but i now know that it wasn't much more than mis-guided emotion, willful delusions, and most of all wanting it all to be 'real.' My emotions no matter how 'real' and 'fervent' they were (and its been hard to accept this) don't reflect reality. Most religious people seem to think that emotions somehow do... What i mean is: A person can realize god has saved them the only parking lot at wall-mart on the 23rd of Dec during the rush of x-max shopping. Just like that person I would have gotten a eurphoric feeling that god had saved it for me. And boom! it acts as further emotional assurance that not only is my god real, but he's also watching out for me. This is a petty example and i have countless serious 'revelations' but i'm keeping the tone light You see (the person's name which i chose to leave out), i don't see human feelings as inclinations of truth because isn't faith just the feeling/thought that something is right or is going to happen despite the evidence? That is also why I think emotions have alot to do with building up the faith. After all, don't muslims have the strongest emotional assurance about their beliefs? I mean man you can't even draw a cartoon of mahommed without a death threat and cmon' it takes a hell of a lot of spiritual assurance to blow yourself up. To be truthful, I have been doubting the bible, christ, virgin births, all the magical miracles of the bible for quite sometime now. I don't mean that in an insulting way but that's exactly whats happened. I can't believe in talking snakes, donkeys, magical fruit, magical places, giants, creation stories that fly in the face of logic and science, and countless physics-altering-divine-interventions if I can't even observe then in a tangible way. Instead, i'm forced to read them in a book as if that constitues a miracle or much less 'proof of it.' If faith is supposed to be the bridge between doubt and belief than it no longer works for me. To be honest, I'm tired of doing mental gymnastics for god. I'm tired of having to make excuses for him in order for him to still maintain that perfect image that my parents drilled into my head when i was five. So why have I rejected my previous beliefs? Well if something can't be taken on its own merits, i can't believe it. Heck if I can't take it on fact, reason, logic, sight, or any of my other five senses, then i probably won't even take it seriously. Why should I? Better yet how can I? This is just a part of my journy of de-conversion. I think I will write a full de-conversion testimony at somepoint that i can just hand out like candy when people ask me what in the hell has happened to me. This has probably been a shocking read to you so let me just say that as long as you respect me for my choices and my decision to not believe then i have no problem returning the favor. After all I wanna build bridges not burn them. I hope we can continue to see eye to eye. If you have any questions i'll do my best to answer them. -Roman" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. And an admittedly foolish message it is indeed... mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Of course the Bible doesn't make sense. The Bible itself admits as much by conceding from the outset that it is senseless apart from "faith." Only a converted mind can understand how cruelty is justice, goodness is evil, up is down, yes is no, and black is white. You need a totally regenerate heart to perceive how foolishness is wisdom. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobrob Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Wish your friend had made sense with such postings. to assume that you should know what he meant is arrogant on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 Of course the Bible doesn't make sense. The Bible itself admits as much by conceding from the outset that it is senseless apart from "faith." Only a converted mind can understand how cruelty is justice, goodness is evil, up is down, yes is no, and black is white. You need a totally regenerate heart to perceive how foolishness is wisdom. Read up on some of the "wholly babble is bullshit" websites, then tell any xians that they may discuss any point with you they wish, but that you don't think the babble is any more than a collection of myths and fairy tales and that no verse contained within proves anything. They're at a loss with out their cherry picked verses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Wish your friend had made sense with such postings. to assume that you should know what he meant is arrogant on his part. ya i'm not quite sure what he meant but i think its supposed to be a big "well duh! here's the verse to explain your problem," like that proves much.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Of course the Bible doesn't make sense. The Bible itself admits as much by conceding from the outset that it is senseless apart from "faith." Only a converted mind can understand how cruelty is justice, goodness is evil, up is down, yes is no, and black is white. You need a totally regenerate heart to perceive how foolishness is wisdom. wow you really put it into perspective right there. I'll keep it mind because it rings so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. And an admittedly foolish message it is indeed... mwc Well then shouldn't god have gone the logically way and made the message understandable by everyone and not just the deluded? Seems messed up that god would decide to make a half-assed 'foolish' message that doesn't make sense to begin with. God obviously isn't keen on converting everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosy_mary Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. And an admittedly foolish message it is indeed... mwc Well then shouldn't god have gone the logically way and made the message understandable by everyone and not just the deluded? Seems messed up that god would decide to make a half-assed 'foolish' message that doesn't make sense to begin with. God obviously isn't keen on converting everyone. Well sure, otherwise what would he do with all that extra fire and brimstone lying around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I don't think that your friend's reply was all that arrogant considering that until now you've given him every reason to believe that you were also a Christian. If this is someone you no longer care about and just want him out of your life because of his Christianity, the response you've written is fine. However, if you want to give him a chance to understand where you're coming from, with hopes of remaining friends even if he doesn't deconvert, I think you should make your answer more personal and less abrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Well then shouldn't god have gone the logically way and made the message understandable by everyone and not just the deluded? Seems messed up that god would decide to make a half-assed 'foolish' message that doesn't make sense to begin with. God obviously isn't keen on converting everyone. The rest of the passage is about how the foolishness of "god" is so much more wise than the wisdom of men. I wasn't aware that "god" could be foolish but that's for Paul to explain I guess. The point being that even "god" at his most retarded is still more wise than the wisest man ever. And the stuff Paul is spewing just happens to be that very foolishness. Not human foolishness but "godly" foolishness. It's so far beyond our understanding it just seems like nonsense. I think Paul and his group are getting high and he says some shit and they're all "Wow man you just like totally blew my mind." Then he goes on to explain how the truly foolish stuff is the wisdom of men because it's obviously inferior to whatever "god" is capable of thinking. It's a relative thing. So if you have the "spirit" telling you stuff then you'd "get" the "foolish" message of "god" and understand how mind blowing it really is. How really and utterly beyond the wisdom of man this shit is. You know? "God" is talking down to us and it's still way over our heads. Whooosh! Like, this should be totally blowing your mind man. Okay, I don't know Paul was a hippie but the concept sure sounds like some hippie shit. Personally I think lots of things went over Paul's head and philosophers laughed at him a lot. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocketAces Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 So I have a myspace and its nothing special but I do have a bill hicks qoute that i think is pretty awesome, here it is... "A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back, he ever wants to see a fucking cross? Kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on, you know." - Bill Hicks Anyways this christian friend of mine who's also really devout and charismatic left me a comment which reads: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18" followed by, "make sense?" Since i haven't offically broken the news to alot of my closest christian friends, this is one of the first reponses that i've got regarding my lack of belief. So in the spur of the moment i decided to write him back in a sort of letter explaining myself. He hasn't replied yet but I wanted some of you guys here to read it and see if make any sense and perphaps suggest something I could add or take out, Here it is: "Hey, glad you took an interest in my myspace, your not the first haha Let me try to understand what your saying here... The verse you qouted does makes sense in the sense that it explains that believers absolutely need faith to make everything they're supposed to believe in, "make sense" while people without faith (the perished) are free to scoff at those beliefs because they simply can't/won't make themselves believe, i.e cognitive dissonance. So far that part does make sense. But the verse you qouted explains just that. It doesn't really prove one position wrong or right, but explains the situation. If that was your point than i should say i've already thought about that. Your probably gonna ask why I have thought about such things and am where I am. And so i have to honestly explain myself now. Here's goes an attempt at the the short version. I no longer believe in christianity and i know it probably pains you to see a friend and someone as previously committed as i was to fall away, but i can't live a lie anymore. You might say I have always been a weak christian but even you never knew me just a few years ago. Those who did, I think would seriously have a heart attack. I know that i was truly 'saved' but i now know that it wasn't much more than mis-guided emotion, willful delusions, and most of all wanting it all to be 'real.' My emotions no matter how 'real' and 'fervent' they were (and its been hard to accept this) don't reflect reality. Most religious people seem to think that emotions somehow do... What i mean is: A person can realize god has saved them the only parking lot at wall-mart on the 23rd of Dec during the rush of x-max shopping. Just like that person I would have gotten a eurphoric feeling that god had saved it for me. And boom! it acts as further emotional assurance that not only is my god real, but he's also watching out for me. This is a petty example and i have countless serious 'revelations' but i'm keeping the tone light You see (the person's name which i chose to leave out), i don't see human feelings as inclinations of truth because isn't faith just the feeling/thought that something is right or is going to happen despite the evidence? That is also why I think emotions have alot to do with building up the faith. After all, don't muslims have the strongest emotional assurance about their beliefs? I mean man you can't even draw a cartoon of mahommed without a death threat and cmon' it takes a hell of a lot of spiritual assurance to blow yourself up. To be truthful, I have been doubting the bible, christ, virgin births, all the magical miracles of the bible for quite sometime now. I don't mean that in an insulting way but that's exactly whats happened. I can't believe in talking snakes, donkeys, magical fruit, magical places, giants, creation stories that fly in the face of logic and science, and countless physics-altering-divine-interventions if I can't even observe then in a tangible way. Instead, i'm forced to read them in a book as if that constitues a miracle or much less 'proof of it.' If faith is supposed to be the bridge between doubt and belief than it no longer works for me. To be honest, I'm tired of doing mental gymnastics for god. I'm tired of having to make excuses for him in order for him to still maintain that perfect image that my parents drilled into my head when i was five. So why have I rejected my previous beliefs? Well if something can't be taken on its own merits, i can't believe it. Heck if I can't take it on fact, reason, logic, sight, or any of my other five senses, then i probably won't even take it seriously. Why should I? Better yet how can I? This is just a part of my journy of de-conversion. I think I will write a full de-conversion testimony at somepoint that i can just hand out like candy when people ask me what in the hell has happened to me. This has probably been a shocking read to you so let me just say that as long as you respect me for my choices and my decision to not believe then i have no problem returning the favor. After all I wanna build bridges not burn them. I hope we can continue to see eye to eye. If you have any questions i'll do my best to answer them. -Roman" that's a fair response, but i would respond, "if you want to discuss religion with me, you will first stop your pathetic attempt to instill fear in me of perishing." i would respond that way only because, that verse simply states to me, if you believe, you won't perish, if you don't believe, you will consider the Gospel foolishness because you are perishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 I don't think that your friend's reply was all that arrogant considering that until now you've given him every reason to believe that you were also a Christian. If this is someone you no longer care about and just want him out of your life because of his Christianity, the response you've written is fine. However, if you want to give him a chance to understand where you're coming from, with hopes of remaining friends even if he doesn't deconvert, I think you should make your answer more personal and less abrupt. ya im thinking it may have been too abrupt but i don't know how to fix the situation from here since i haven't heard from him yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 Like, this should be totally blowing your mind man. Man, we ain't into shit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 Man, we ain't into shit! I'm trying to rap about the whole groovy scene that Paul was trying to lay on people. Dig? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderingbread Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 Man, we ain't into shit! I'm trying to rap about the whole groovy scene that Paul was trying to lay on people. Dig? mwc Totally. I's well into dat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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