End Time Events

[GypsyMoon]

If you've ever been a Christian and read the book of Revelation (I think that makes almost all of us) You'll know that it explains what will happen in the end times.

 

Preachers these days are claiming that we are in that generation. Even "liberal" Christians are agreeing with that statement. Personally its enough to freak me out, and causing me to ask the all-important question - when it comes to this particular subject:

 

What IF the Bible is true?

 

Because if it IS true, and we ARE in the last generation, it means that I, for one, will end up in hell.

 

How do I deal with that question. I mean, I'm tired of a controling Xtianity, but I CANT buy into the liberal form, because its hypocritical and also contradicts the Bible.

 

I don't want to beleive the Bible.. because I've proved that it doesn't work, but if it IS true, I don't want to go to hell. Nor do I want to get caught in the 3 1/2 years of tribulation with the Mark of the Beast, Bride of Christ, and lastly the Second Coming of Jesus.

 

 

Maybe we should be dealing with it? Please don't get me wrong... I'm not a Christian, I just want to know what the truth is.

[par4dcourse]

If you've ever been a Christian and read the book of Revelation (I think that makes almost all of us) You'll know that it explains what will happen in the end times.

Have you read it? It explains nothing, like the previous 65 books. Horsemen and 7 seals and whores of babylon, yada, yada. It makes absolutely no sense until someone "interprets" it, and that's been done more ways than Paris Hilton.

Visit some of the more popular bible-is-bullshit sites. Revalations is considered by most to be either a case of bad mushrooms or too many poppies.

[florduh]

" . . . I've proved that it doesn't work, but if it IS true . . . "

You either proved it to yourself or you didn't. I have the feeling you have examined the Bible and its historical, scientific and internal errors and concluded it is bogus, but still suffer the effects of Christian brainwashing. The doctrine of Hell has been beaten to death here, and there are even conflicting verses in the Bible concerning hellfire. Trust your rational brain and common sense; don't let the fear instilled by superstition control you any longer.

 

The "signs of the end times" have been in existence throughout history. According to the fable, Jesus promised those present after his resurrection that he would return in their lifetimes. The floods, fires, earthquakes, wars and famines of the preceding centuries were all marked by believers as signs or the last days and the return of their saviour. Eventually, the prophets of doom will probably finally be right, but the end of life on Earth will have nothing to do with the Bible, Nostradamus, the Mayan calendar, or Hal Lindsey.

[GypsyMoon]

If you've ever been a Christian and read the book of Revelation (I think that makes almost all of us) You'll know that it explains what will happen in the end times.

Have you read it? It explains nothing, like the previous 65 books. Horsemen and 7 seals and whores of babylon, yada, yada. It makes absolutely no sense until someone "interprets" it, and that's been done more ways than Paris Hilton.

 

Actually the book of Revelation does explain SOME things if you take it literally... such as the mark of the beast. but I can see your point. My point is that if all this is going to happen, then I have reason to be scared about it.

 

And I'll be honest that I am.

[GypsyMoon]

" . . . I've proved that it doesn't work, but if it IS true . . . "

You either proved it to yourself or you didn't. I have the feeling you have examined the Bible and its historical, scientific and internal errors and concluded it is bogus, but still suffer the effects of Christian brainwashing. The doctrine of Hell has been beaten to death here, and there are even conflicting verses in the Bible concerning hellfire. Trust your rational brain and common sense; don't let the fear instilled by superstition control you any longer.

 

 

To be honest florduh, I don't know whether I've proved anything. The more I think about it the more fearful I get because I don't HAVE the answers I've been looking for.

[florduh]

Well, there may or may not be answers to everything, but the Bible certainly has proven itself to be useless as a guide to reality. Don't forget that the doctrine of Hell and a lot of the other bullshit that was derived from the Revelation symbols are rather recent additions to the religion of Paul. If someone hadn't explained what all those verses meant you never would have come to the conclusions you have by reading the book.

 

I feel badly because of the hold the cult still has on your mind. I wish I could help, but I'm not a deprogrammer or psychologist. I would, however, recommend professional help in freeing your mind if you can't let go through study and reason alone.

[Taphophilia]

Ah, Darby's Dispensation.

 

You have to understand these beliefs are not original to Christianity and started in the 19th century with John Nelson Darby. When you read older Christian writings like John Wesley or George Whitefield, they don't mention any of the "rapture" or "tribulation" stuff that abounds in Christianity today. It hadn't been invented yet.

 

Taph

[GypsyMoon]

Ah, Darby's Dispensation.

 

You have to understand these beliefs are not original to Christianity and started in the 19th century with John Nelson Darby. When you read older Christian writings like John Wesley or George Whitefield, they don't mention any of the "rapture" or "tribulation" stuff that abounds in Christianity today. It hadn't been invented yet.

 

Taph

 

Actually,

 

they preached AGAINST Dispensationalism. Ever heard of the Creative and Redemptive Week? That's the stuff I'm mixed up in.

[Taphophilia]

You mean this?

 

1 - Gen. 1:28 - Innocence

2 - Gen. 3:7 - Conscience or moral responsibility

3 - Gen. 8:15 - Human Government

4 - Gen. 12:1 - Promise

5 - Ex. 19:1 - Law

6 - Acts 2:1 - Church

7 - Rev. 20:4 - Kingdom

[centauri]

If you've ever been a Christian and read the book of Revelation (I think that makes almost all of us) You'll know that it explains what will happen in the end times.

 

Preachers these days are claiming that we are in that generation. Even "liberal" Christians are agreeing with that statement. Personally its enough to freak me out, and causing me to ask the all-important question - when it comes to this particular subject:

 

What IF the Bible is true?

 

Because if it IS true, and we ARE in the last generation, it means that I, for one, will end up in hell.

 

Considering that the opening lines of the Book of Revelation declare that the described events were to transpire shortly and later claims that Jesus would return quickly, I don't see much reason to trust it as an accurate guide.

As an aside, how do you know what "hell" is?

Are you trusting Christian advertising or do you actually know what it is?

Do you really want to go to heaven and live forever as a Borg drone, singing praises to Jesus and plucking the harp?

Maybe hell is freedom and heaven is slavery.

Have you ever read the sermons of "new age" preachers?

They, like Christian preachers, are experts in selling "truth".

Google keywords like "ascension", "2012", "star children", "higher vibrations", and you'll discover a whole world of pied pipers selling you their wares.

 

How do I deal with that question. I mean, I'm tired of a controling Xtianity, but I CANT buy into the liberal form, because its hypocritical and also contradicts the Bible.

 

I haven't seen any version of Christianity that doesn't contradict the Bible.

Would it bother you if Yahweh turned out to be real and Jesus was a false teacher?

If the Jews have it right, then Christians may be wishing they had never heard of Jesus.

 

I don't want to beleive the Bible.. because I've proved that it doesn't work, but if it IS true, I don't want to go to hell. Nor do I want to get caught in the 3 1/2 years of tribulation with the Mark of the Beast, Bride of Christ, and lastly the Second Coming of Jesus.

 

There are thousands of things to be afraid of and thousands of hucksters making money off of every one of them.

Maybe when you reach a point of fear factor fatigue, you'll no longer be afraid of it.

I can vouch that it is possible to reach a point of such disgust, revulsion, and fatigue with the sheer lunacy and malfunction that permeate life, that I no longer fear the neurotic speculations of anyone.

There's a great feeling of relief that comes when one reaches that point.

[OpheliaGinger]

If the Bible is real and we are living in the last generation (which seems to be every generation), I would much rather be in Hell then in Heaven with a douchbag prick of this so called God.

[Antlerman]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear it still holds the power of fear over you. The more I study the history of the Biblical texts, and understand the mindsets of all the various cultures who take these apocolyptic sayings as pertaining to them, and how that is but just one flavor of thought which goes way beyond just those books which were voted on in committees as "the word of God", so called, then you begin to see their appeal as one rooted in trends of groups within the framework of their society at the time, and hardly some divine message of prophecy of future events.

 

Try this one on for size. Rev. 11:15-17,

 

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

 

Now imagine you lived during the last great Roman persecution of the Christians, right before Constantine had his vision and went to battle to win and become sole Emperor. You heard all the stories of persecution and the martyrdom of your god, and the promises his kingdom would be established on earth and that Christianity would rule the world. Now you have the great Roman empire make your religion the official religion of the empire and fund the building of churches, the copying of Bibles, the promotion of the religion as the religion of the whole world! Wow, prophecy was fulfilled!

 

And on and on and on and on and on it could go. No, today is no different than any other which saw things that seemed to fit. I have a book written before this latest Dispenstaionist doctrinal crap began, and it's fun to see how most everything in Revelation is seen to be fulfilled within the Roman Empire 2000 years ago. It should, considering it was written talking about Rome. Seven hills upon which the woman sits, Rome. The number of the name 616 (earliest texts), Nero's name. As so forth.

 

Ask yourself this, if God is real, and God is love, what's all this fear crap for? Sounds to me like they're not quite sure what they believe. God is love, God is dreadful, God is love, God is dreadful... yikes. That's what they get for seeing it all as one single directly delivered text, as opposed to layers upon layers of differing schools of thought compiled together into some supposed "divine revelation".

 

Knowledge, the key to opening the doors of fear and exposing the emptiness inside.

[Japedo]

Actually the book of Revelation does explain SOME things if you take it literally... such as the mark of the beast. but I can see your point. My point is that if all this is going to happen, then I have reason to be scared about it.

 

And I'll be honest that I am.

 

 

Welcome to Ex-C, I'd like to ask What do you know about the "Mark of the beast" outside of Christian dogma?

 

 

 

Did you know that in the Torah (or Old Testament as you may know it) it speaks of where it as a sign on your forehead and hand? It has nothing to do with any mark. The more you know the original meaning of Messiahs, laws, and customs the more you will educate your fear away. Knowledge is power.

 

Deuteronomy 6:8 (KJV) And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

 

Deuteronomy 11:18 (KJV) Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

 

Exodus 13:9 (KJV) And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt

 

Exodus 13:16 (KJV) And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

 

 

These verses have to do with Jewish Law, Romans and Greeks in attempting to rewrite Jewish law sought to attach some sinister/ evil meaning to it. Only in studying what the original meaning of things are will the fear begin to subside.

 

I was traumatized with the endtimes bullshit as a child/teenager. I was forced to watch movies of Christians happy they were being beheaded, and other things that have screwed my mind up. The only thing I could cling to was where did everything start. My search at the beginning to was to find "God" find the "One True" path. Clinging to the verse of knowing them by their fruits was a key thing I held on to in my search. If people had rotten fruit, I knew they were passing me garbage so to say. I studied Judaism who started the writing of the bible,for a few years and even wanted to convert at one time. They welcomed open discussion, and questions. I wanted to know facts of whys and what for's. Rabbi's encourage you to disagree and think for yourself, You, after all have your own path to finding god. The environment and facts were nothing of what I was told they were. I keep on seeking god and looking for answers until I eventually evolved into being an Atheist. I'm a weak atheist but one never the less. I don't believe nor do I disbelieve. I'm open waiting for answers still.

 

Anyways... On to the head and hand stuff...

 

 

Remember, the "Writing" of the NT was to do away with the "Law". It was written by both Greeks and Romans who wove their already existing Pagan story's into the Jewish Prophecy. The Jews were never waiting for any godman, they were waiting and still wait for a great leader like Moses. A regular full human with no super powers, just a guy.

These Torah laws (Commandments or as the Jews say Mitzvahs) above have to do with the Tallit and Tefillin Which are bound on the arm/hand and Forehead. They carry important verses of the Torah, (Bible)

 

 

To view directions how to put them on you can go here. Judaism 101

 

To read more about signs and symbols you can go here Judaism 101

[mwc]

the book of Revelation ... it explains what will happen in the end times.

It does?

 

What IF the Bible is true?

What if?

 

Because if it IS true, and we ARE in the last generation, it means that I, for one, will end up in hell.

You'll possibly end up in Hades. Ultimately you'll end up in the <spooky voice>Lake of Fire</spooky voice>. Doesn't matter what "generation" you are.

 

I don't want to beleive the Bible.. because I've proved that it doesn't work, but if it IS true, I don't want to go to hell. Nor do I want to get caught in the 3 1/2 years of tribulation with the Mark of the Beast, Bride of Christ, and lastly the Second Coming of Jesus.

You don't want to believe the bible. Are you saying you have to believe the bible? Are you saying you're being forced to believe the bible? Just what is it you are saying?

 

Maybe we should be dealing with it? Please don't get me wrong... I'm not a Christian, I just want to know what the truth is.

Feel free to ask me all the questions you want about this whole "Revelation" thing. It comes around so often that a couple/three weeks ago I started looking into it (the main "vision"). I've gotten through it pretty thoroughly though I admit I've still got a lot of ground left to cover (and a number of things to research and/or reconsider based on that research). But overall I've got a pretty good feel for it. I don't go into the modern doctrines.

 

Define those things you said above if you really want to discuss them. The "3.5 years of tribulation" will need to be narrowed down (since several 3.5 year periods are mentioned). The "mark of the beast" will have to be put into some meaningful context (ie. what do you mean by it/what is the issue). The "Bride of Christ" simply doesn't exist in the Revelation (the bride of the lamb does but the lamb is not the christ). And what do you mean by "Second Coming of Jesus?" (this is something else that does not exist in the Revelation).

 

mwc

[Deva]

I have heard preachers talking about the end times since the 1960s. One of their standard lines would be "I believe Christ is going to return in my lifetime; this is the last generation." Well, these same folks are old now, and many of them are dead, I am sure. The older I got, the more ridiculous it seemed.

 

I think they liked to say things like this because it would get more people to come forward at the altar call. Then they might get "saved" and start chipping in some money to the ministry. Think I'm cynical? On this subject, you bet your life.

 

I was personally threatened by my father once, who asked me in a severe tone, "Don't you believe in the Judgment?" This was a method he used for child rearing. Not one I would recommend.

 

My point is that the end-times/hell/rapture stuff is used as a means to control people. There is not a scrap of evidence to support it in reality, but it is an effective scare tactic to get people to do what the controller wants them to do.

[mwc]

My point is that the end-times/hell/rapture stuff is used as a means to control people. There is not a scrap of evidence to support it in reality, but it is an effective scare tactic to get people to do what the controller wants them to do.

Oh yeah? Well, who was laughing when that preacher-saurus was begging for the dinos to repent and none of them would? Then one fateful day...WHAM! Godosaurus-rex sent that meteor. Judgment had come. What a terrible day that was and none of the chosen mammal tribe learned a thing. Evolving into sinners. Heed this warning cockroaches. You're next.

 

mwc

[Vigile]

If you've ever been a Christian and read the book of Revelation (I think that makes almost all of us) You'll know that it explains what will happen in the end times.

Have you read it? It explains nothing, like the previous 65 books. Horsemen and 7 seals and whores of babylon, yada, yada. It makes absolutely no sense until someone "interprets" it, and that's been done more ways than Paris Hilton.

 

Actually the book of Revelation does explain SOME things if you take it literally... such as the mark of the beast. but I can see your point. My point is that if all this is going to happen, then I have reason to be scared about it.

 

And I'll be honest that I am.

 

It explains nothing my friend. Modern day "prophets" that want to sell books created a paradigm about the end times. They hunted and pecked and data mined bits and pieces of esoteric Daniel and Revelation to form the paradigm. You know the paradigm well so when you read certain verses that discuss marks of beasts and such they fit neatly into the little paradigm. Question the foundation of the paradigm itself and it all falls apart.

 

For example, a 3-headed beast could be an Apache helicopter, or it could just be a post bronze age allegory. Which one do you think is more likely?

[Antlerman]

For example, a 3-headed beast could be an Apache helicopter, or it could just be a post bronze age allegory. Which one do you think is more likely?

I think its the doctrine of the Trinity, myself.

[florduh]

I think the three-headed beast is the executive, legislative and judicial branches of our government. Or maybe Larry, Curly and Moe. Possibly Fox, CNN and Oprah.

[GypsyMoon]

Its taken me a while to read through all the threads here, and in some respects its making me more confused.

 

I think i'm going to have to explain what I've been taught in respect to this.... and I think its pretty obvious that I'm still trying to free myself from it.

 

As I understand it, there are passages of Scripture throughout the Bible that interpret the book of Revelation. And there are hundreds of different opinions out there as to how its all going to happen.

 

I was told that there is no such thing as the rapture. That we are NOT just going to be "taken out" all of a sudden. Instead there will be the ultimate fullfillment of the Day of Atonement, which is forshadowed in the Old Testament in type. When this occurs, just before the 3.5 years during which God's wrath will be poured out on the unbeleiving in the form of "seven trumpets" which trigger off "seven curses", the church becomes fully perfected. (I'm missing heaps of details out, just so I don't sound like I beleive it). At this stage the "marriage of the lamb" occurs, and, btw, mwc, according to my pastor, the sacrifice of a lamb in the Old Testament forshadowed Christ's death on the cross. Therefore that type is carried over to Revelation, where the lamb typifies Christ. So then Christ marries the church. After this there is a period where the gospel is carried out for the very last time. During this time there is a "womb" of 144,000 virgins, whom by the Holy Spirit concieve a son each. When they give birth the bride is taken out into the wilderness and there she remains for the 3.5 years.

 

As for the Second Coming, which you claimed was not mentioned in Revelation, Jesus came to earth once, and died. Down this end he is to return, this time to take vengance. Therefore "The Second Coming of Christ".

 

You also have to consider that the Creative Week during which God created the world in 6 days, which are 1,000 yrs each according to Psalm 90:

 

 

LORD, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

 

and

 

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

Can also be a type of the Redemptive Week, in which God is working to redeem mankind to himself.

 

That is how I understand it. Most people don't beleive this, and my pastor constantly told us that this view is often unheard of.

 

And no, I don't have to beleive the bible, but what i'm saying is, if it is true, then why shouldn't I beleive it? Fear is a big factor for me in all of this, and I'm wanting to know what really is the truth. Thats if it can even be found.

[GypsyMoon]

For a bit more of a Theologocal Explanation: http://www.triunelastdays.org/creative_redemptive.htm

 

http://www.triunelastdays.org/day_atonement.htm

[florduh]

I for one am familiar with the verses and various interpretations. I found the whole thing to be lacking in logic and evidence of veracity.

 

Perhaps you could try a dialogue with some of the serious answers rather than posting more Bible verses and their interpretations. It looks as if you are trying to make yourself (and maybe us) believe the bullshit. Most of us understand full well what you are afraid of and can logically address the absurdity of it all.

 

Though you stated you proved the unreliability of the Bible to yourself, you still wonder "what if it's true?" I ask you, what if Mohammed spoke the truth? Why couldn't L. Ron Hubbard have discovered the truth and explain it all in Scientology? There is as much reason to believe those scenarios as there is to believe the Bible has a corner on truth. It's just the mythology you are familiar with, and has no more evidence or logic going for it than the texts of any other religion or cult.

[Antlerman]

And no, I don't have to beleive the bible, but what i'm saying is, if it is true, then why shouldn't I beleive it? Fear is a big factor for me in all of this, and I'm wanting to know what really is the truth. Thats if it can even be found.

What if. You realize you could be going to hell because you're not believing the Koran? What if Mohammad is right? Again, if fear is the best these Christians have to offer, then I'd say it's time for you to give them the holy middle finger since that's a pretty awful God to peddle to you, wouldn't you say? "Worship me or I'll burn you in HELL!!", says the God of Love. Pure rubbish.

 

So as to all these so called foreshadowing things your pastor has been taught exist in the OT... frankly they're laughable. The sacrificial lamb of the OT, is not meant to be some divine foreshadowing of Jesus. That's simply the take on it from the followers of Jesus who developed a whole mythology about the death of their teacher, years after his death to try to explain it. It's not even good OT scholarship. This is true of the Virgin Birth story as well. It's based on an ignorant reading of a mistranslation of Isaiah where the real world is supposed to be "a young woman", and that young woman was Isiah's wife and the prophecy was fulfilled in 700 BC. As far as that lamb again... what the OT sacrificial lamb was, was essentially a carry over from their early Cannanite origns where they sacrificed a spring lamb in the spring as part of their pagan religion! Just like the Catholics Christianized pagan gods into Christian Saints and the like, the whole sacrifice of the lamb was a pagan practice - and Christianity takes the death of Jesus and layers that on it.

 

So... the short of it, it's easy to make a prophecy out of an ill-informed, ignorant reading of ancient literature, and make loose statements or "predictions" look fulfilled in however way suits your needs. It's no different than the power of a fortune cookie! Do you fear them?

[GypsyMoon]

If the Koran's not true, then the Bible's not true, and that settles it for me. Even though I know I'll have a billion questions from here.

 

 

But even then, its pretty hard to pull myself away from what I've lived for. I have to start again.. from scratch. What am I meant to live for?

[Ouroboros]

But even then, its pretty hard to pull myself away from what I've lived for. I have to start again.. from scratch. What am I meant to live for?

For you.