Do You Still Feel You Have A "personal Relationship" With "jesus"?

[Phaceless]

Something I have tried to explain to a few people with no sucsess... am I crazy?

Maybe there are a few here who feel the same?

 

I deconverted about 10 years ago, I was about 25 years old, my background is Southern Baptist Fundy.

All through my christian exspereince, yes I did feel I had a "personal relationship" with Jesus/God.

 

Funny thing is I feel I have more of a "personal relationship with God" since rejecting dogma, religion and a belief in gods.

 

I define a " personal relationship with God" as feelings of spiritual unity/ connectivness with a "higher power", internal closeness, peace, joy, security, love, value, feelings of some sort of higher purpose/ reason for existing and so on.

 

The funny thing is these feelings are independent and constant, regardless of my belief or lack of belief.

 

I would call my self a soft athiest/ agnostic/ and probably a universalist unitarian.

I dont beleive in invisible worlds. I highly value materialism/naturalism and Reason/ Logic.

I find reading science journals gives me religous/ spiritual feelings

When I read about Relativity or Superstring Theory or Physics, and so on .. I feel these deeply spiritual connective feelings, like I am reading the bible or something.

I find preoccupation with the Afterlife as wasting precious time here in the Real World of physical reality.

 

Yet at the same time, no matter how happy sad, or angery my life is, I never stop feeling this internal spiritual connection with everything around me,

a higher power loving FRIEND GOD figure that is independent of any dogma,rituals, doctrine, or belief....

 

 

From an intillectual level, I am Atheist and Materialist.

I VALUE more than anything, the principles of Objective Empirical Evidence, the Scientiifc Method, which to me is the Highest Standard in determining a

"Truth"

This is why I value soft atheism/ agnosticism , because of this high standard.

I would first and foremost identify myself as soft atheist.

 

On an emotional level I am maybe a Universalist Panthiest?

 

Is it possible to be both?

 

 

About a year ago I discovered a poet named RUMI ( mideval universalist muslim poet).

And I was surprised to find how much I identified with RUMI, I read his writings and I feel like he understands exactly how I feel, yet Rumi is Muslim Mystic!

At the same time I feel confortable calling myself an soft-athiest.

I dont believe in a Invisible Authority Figure, or any religous dogma, I hate reading religous and spiritual books.

I beleive in Physical Reality and thats about it.

In fact I hate hanging around Thiests, they annoy me because they tend to de-value and demonize the Real World.

 

So the wierdest thing is this seems to be a contradiction and oxymoron, yet I feel no internal conflict about it.

It makes perfect sense to me, but I cannot explain it.

 

I can look in the mirror and say to myself "There is no God" and I can totaly agree with it.

I can look in the mirror again and say to myself "" God is here and I feel God all around me"

 

Is this a contradiction, or something beyond the ability of launguage to catigorize?

 

Am I crazy?

 

Are these feelings of closeness-to-God invalid because they are after all just emotions?

 

Anybody feel the same?

[par4dcourse]

I define a " personal relationship with God" as feelings of spiritual unity/ connectivness with a "higher power", internal closeness, peace, joy, security, love, value, feelings of some sort of higher purpose/ reason for existing and so on.

 

The funny thing is these feelings are independent and constant, regardless of my belief or lack of belief.

All normal human emotions, which religion preys on as "gawd's gift." You're having a personal relationship with your newfound freedom, and your real self.

[xandermac]

I know what you mean about having "spiritual feelings" when it comes to science and the universe. I can't really put it into words but when I look at something like THIS I get teary eyed. Carl Sagan's the Pale Blue Dot or just looking at the sky on a clear night. When I was a believer I never noticed these things. I never realized just how big the universe is and how small we are. Learning about these things made me realize that just one 2 thousand year old book couldn't begin to answer any questions for me. It's like you say in your other thread , the "not knowing" is much more of a comfort to me.

[Vigile]

I know what you mean about having "spiritual feelings" when it comes to science and the universe. I can't really put it into words but when I look at something like THIS I get teary eyed. Carl Sagan's the Pale Blue Dot or just looking at the sky on a clear night. When I was a believer I never noticed these things. I never realized just how big the universe is and how small we are. Learning about these things made me realize that just one 2 thousand year old book couldn't begin to answer any questions for me. It's like you say in your other thread , the "not knowing" is much more of a comfort to me.

 

I don't feel that I'm spiritual at all, but that video turns me into a weepy basket case every time.

 

That's the thing about spiritualism that I don't really get. The universe is so awesome by itself that there is just no need to make up things to feel inspiration. I find that deep field video so much more impressive than anything John Edwards can pull out of his bag of tricks.

[xandermac]

I don't feel that I'm spiritual at all, but that video turns me into a weepy basket case every time.

 

That's the thing about spiritualism that I don't really get. The universe is so awesome by itself that there is just no need to make up things to feel inspiration. I find that deep field video so much more impressive than anything John Edwards can pull out of his bag of tricks.

 

I guess I don't mean spiritual but I do feel something emotional that I USED to think was spiritual. I don't have any spirits in my life anymore. Just feelings. Some people may look at that video and say "How can you not believe in a god" but seeing that confirms my disbelief if that makes any sense.

[Vigile]

I guess I don't mean spiritual but I do feel something emotional that I USED to think was spiritual. I don't have any spirits in my life anymore. Just feelings. Some people may look at that video and say "How can you not believe in a god" but seeing that confirms my disbelief if that makes any sense.

 

Hi Xan, yeah, I understood you. Sorry if I sounded like I was disagreeing. I didn't write that very thoughtfully.

 

What I meant to say was I don't really have a need to feel spiritual like I know some others do. Even so, it's nice when something can pull those emotions out of me; I may not seek them out, but it can be really great when something does inspire.

[xandermac]

I guess I don't mean spiritual but I do feel something emotional that I USED to think was spiritual. I don't have any spirits in my life anymore. Just feelings. Some people may look at that video and say "How can you not believe in a god" but seeing that confirms my disbelief if that makes any sense.

 

Hi Xan, yeah, I understood you. Sorry if I sounded like I was disagreeing. I didn't write that very thoughtfully.

 

What I meant to say was I don't really have a need to feel spiritual like I know some others do. Even so, it's nice when something can pull those emotions out of me; I may not seek them out, but it can be really great when something does inspire.

 

Nah you're always thoughtful! I live out in the country and I can see the stars better than "city folk", I like to build a fire and just sit out there and gaze up at the stars. I also have a cheap but workable telescope that I use sometimes.

[Vigile]

Nah you're always thoughtful! I live out in the country and I can see the stars better than "city folk", I like to build a fire and just sit out there and gaze up at the stars. I also have a cheap but workable telescope that I use sometimes.

 

You're too kind.

 

There's a place in Idaho called Lowman. It's just a little hiccup on the road on the way to Sun Valley. In the winter it gets very cold in Lowman and the town is so far from city lights that when you stand outside you feel like you can touch the stars with your fingertips. It's amazing how many of them you can see. I think I'm not exaggerating when I say you can see at least 4 times as many stars in Lowman as you can see on an average clear night most elsewhere.

[Phaceless]

Yikes, I just realized I didnt spellcheck my post.... very sorry.

My English writing sucks..

[Phaceless]

Nah you're always thoughtful! I live out in the country and I can see the stars better than "city folk", I like to build a fire and just sit out there and gaze up at the stars. I also have a cheap but workable telescope that I use sometimes.

 

You're too kind.

 

There's a place in Idaho called Lowman. It's just a little hiccup on the road on the way to Sun Valley. In the winter it gets very cold in Lowman and the town is so far from city lights that when you stand outside you feel like you can touch the stars with your fingertips. It's amazing how many of them you can see. I think I'm not exaggerating when I say you can see at least 4 times as many stars in Lowman as you can see on an average clear night most elsewhere.

 

Small world isnt it? I live in Boise

[Vigile]

Nah you're always thoughtful! I live out in the country and I can see the stars better than "city folk", I like to build a fire and just sit out there and gaze up at the stars. I also have a cheap but workable telescope that I use sometimes.

 

You're too kind.

 

There's a place in Idaho called Lowman. It's just a little hiccup on the road on the way to Sun Valley. In the winter it gets very cold in Lowman and the town is so far from city lights that when you stand outside you feel like you can touch the stars with your fingertips. It's amazing how many of them you can see. I think I'm not exaggerating when I say you can see at least 4 times as many stars in Lowman as you can see on an average clear night most elsewhere.

 

Small world isnt it? I live in Boise

 

Great! I haven't lived there in years but grew up there and graduated BSU. Nice to hear from home!

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I guess what I feel is a more general spiritual feeling, rather than a "personal relationship with Jesus". I no longer feel constrained by the rules and guilt of Christianity, but I still think there is more to us than meets the eye, I just don't know what it is. I just finished reading Arthur C. Clarke's "2001: A Space Odyssey" (mostly because I wanted to understand the ending of the movie) as well as "2010" and "2061". Clarke has life springing up in unusual places and tries to describe some possible lifeforms that could exist. Interesting reading.

 

I had a dream this morning of singing a hymn while getting ready for a shower, and then getting frustrated with myself for belting out a philosophy that I no longer believe. So in some ways this ongoing feeling of spirituality is the result of years of conditioning that will not be easily changed. In other ways, it is my mind continuing to look for meaning and belonging. And there may be something that we all are part of without realizing it. I've been poking around a reincarnation forum recently and they have some interesting stories about children having vivid memories of past lives. On one hand this is fascinating, but on the other hand I can't test this anymore than I can test the veracity of the gospel writers (well, maybe it is a bit easier to test the more recent stories). I would have to trust that the stories are true and that the researchers they quote really exist, etc. But even some on these forums have mentioned encounters with people they knew that had recently died, so maybe there is something more.

 

The reincarnation idea is found in Judaism, Hinduism, and other religions. Some think we come back to learn something, others feel we come back because we failed to live up to some spiritual code of conduct and have to try again, others say they don't know why we come back. I'm not sure that we do come back. I have the desire to continue, but wish I could keep my learning and wisdom. One way or another I'm going to find out when I die. But at least I don't need to fear the molten sulfur pit of Christianity.

 

One other thing I used to do to relax deeply was on rainy days to put on a raincoat, go out in the back yard and lie down on the grass and close my eyes, and just listen. I'd try to hear each puddle, rock, and tree just by the sound of the rain on the surfaces. It was very calming (at least when no cars were driving by). I don't know that this was particularly spiritual, but it was nice, and perhaps meditative while keeping my mind active. Maybe spirituality is where you find it, or what you choose to make of it, rather than something given to you in a prefab belief system.

[Taphophilia]

It just got to the point where I started to feel like I was doing all the work in the relationship, so Jesus and I decided to see other people. Then I had "the talk" with him. "It's not you, it's me". Translation, "It's definitely YOU!".

[noob]

I think the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus is one of the reasons that I found myself questioning my faith.

 

Ever since childhood, I have loved being outdoors and I have always been a major sun worshiper. I spent hours out in the sun as a child (and I now have the skin cancer scars to prove it) and even today, I prefer to be outdoors and sweaty over being indoors in the air conditioning. I feel happy, serene, and yes, even spiritual when I am enjoying nature.

 

I also love music and when I am listening to music I feel joyful and able to endure almost anything – even cleaning the house!

 

And, my point is? There was never anything at church that came even close to the feelings I get sitting in a park or listening to one of my favorite CDs. Oh I admit, I could get a little teary-eyed during some of the hymns and I almost always cried when someone went forward to be baptized. (Now I wonder if I was just feeling sorry for them.) But, overall, I just never felt that connected.

 

There is a woman who goes to church where I still attend services on Sunday morning. (My church attendance was covered in my testimony and so far, I have not taken steps to resolve it. But – I do have a plan!) If Christ of the bible was real, and if he could be seen in someone, this woman would be it. She glows, she oozes love and kindness, she cries when she talks about God’s love. Oddly enough, knowing her made me feel so inadequate when it came to having a personal relationship with Jesus. I wondered what I would have to do to channel God’s love the way she does. But no matter how I tried, I could not connect. Too often, I found myself listening to the stories and the sermons and going, huh? I really wanted to believe and I wanted to have that relationship, but my mind would just never let me go there.

 

So, in a very wordy way, I guess I am saying no. I do not feel I “still” have a personal relationship with Jesus. Because even before I admitted that I did not believe in God, I did not have that type of relationship with him.

[R. S. Martin]

I define a " personal relationship with God" as feelings of spiritual unity/ connectivness with a "higher power", internal closeness, peace, joy, security, love, value, feelings of some sort of higher purpose/ reason for existing and so on.

 

The funny thing is these feelings are independent and constant, regardless of my belief or lack of belief.

All normal human emotions, which religion preys on as "gawd's gift." You're having a personal relationship with your newfound freedom, and your real self.

 

In my opinion, what all of the posts (referring to this topic and not hometowns lol) are discussing is what Michael Persinger is researching. I think the OP describes it exactly. I also think Rudolph Otto describes it exactly with his description of the "numinous" in Idea of the Holy. Otto believes it is the divine. I think this is the core of all religions and spiritualities. Sam Harris says in the Four Horsemen that he distinguishes between the numinous and the supernatural.

 

In my opinion, Persinger has located the organ (or whatever is its scientific name) via which humans experience this feeling. We experience this feeling with this special organ just as we experience taste with the tongue, odor with the nose, and vision with the eyes. Anthropology of religion tells us that we experience this feeling (more commonly referred to as an "altered state of consciousness"; it's my idea that this is the feeling that is meant) is brought on by ritual such as dance, music, chant, or other repetitive sound, movement, or behaviour.

 

Rituals are present in all religions I know of, organized and otherwise. Otto observes that the numinous can be experienced when in the presence of something awe-inspiring. It's been a long time since I read his book, but I take it a mighty course of water or mountain or tree can do it. In my personal experience, so can the heavy roll of thunder. Or a certain slant of the sunlight on a pleasant autumn afternoon.

 

To get back to what Sam Harris said, and the two quotes at the top of this post. In my opinion, the feeling described in the OP is the numinous and it can be called spiritual but it is based in the physical brain and has nothing to do with the supernatural. Christians argue that it makes sense that God gave us the means by which to experience him. I find that to be a strange thing to say because this feeling causes people to worship so many different gods, goddesses, spirits, etc. No offense to anyone; it is my opinion that it is the same feeling that causes this and I have no way to prove it.

 

The interesting thing is that the Christians claim all the other gods are false but their own is exclusively correct--they can feel it; they just "know" it. Yet they fail to provide any evidence that their own feelings differ qualitatively in any way from the feelings of any worshipper of any other deity. Or of the atheist who experiences the numinous or feels overwhelmed with love for no explicable reason.

[agnosticator]

You ain't crazy Phaceless! I feel it when experiencing nature and music, primarily. But it seems to me that people who are deep thinkers and those who appreciate the aesthetics feel it moreso than the rest. Many people I have come across lack passion and appreciation for the reality that surrounds us. Truth (with a lower case "t") and beauty are the bomb!

[noob]

It just got to the point where I started to feel like I was doing all the work in the relationship, so Jesus and I decided to see other people. Then I had "the talk" with him. "It's not you, it's me". Translation, "It's definitely YOU!".

In other words, you were just not that "into" him, hmmmmm?

 

Your post cracked me up!!!

[Taphophilia]

In other words, you were just not that "into" him, hmmmmm?

 

Your post cracked me up!!!

 

Actually, he had way too high an opinion of himself. He expected everyone to believe that he was god's gift to mankind and that he could walk on water.

[Phaceless]

I define a " personal relationship with God" as feelings of spiritual unity/ connectivness with a "higher power", internal closeness, peace, joy, security, love, value, feelings of some sort of higher purpose/ reason for existing and so on.

 

The funny thing is these feelings are independent and constant, regardless of my belief or lack of belief.

All normal human emotions, which religion preys on as "gawd's gift." You're having a personal relationship with your newfound freedom, and your real self.

 

In my opinion, what all of the posts (referring to this topic and not hometowns lol) are discussing is what Michael Persinger is researching. I think the OP describes it exactly. I also think Rudolph Otto describes it exactly with his description of the "numinous" in Idea of the Holy. Otto believes it is the divine. I think this is the core of all religions and spiritualities. Sam Harris says in the Four Horsemen that he distinguishes between the numinous and the supernatural.

 

In my opinion, Persinger has located the organ (or whatever is its scientific name) via which humans experience this feeling. We experience this feeling with this special organ just as we experience taste with the tongue, odor with the nose, and vision with the eyes. Anthropology of religion tells us that we experience this feeling (more commonly referred to as an "altered state of consciousness"; it's my idea that this is the feeling that is meant) is brought on by ritual such as dance, music, chant, or other repetitive sound, movement, or behaviour.

 

Rituals are present in all religions I know of, organized and otherwise. Otto observes that the numinous can be experienced when in the presence of something awe-inspiring. It's been a long time since I read his book, but I take it a mighty course of water or mountain or tree can do it. In my personal experience, so can the heavy roll of thunder. Or a certain slant of the sunlight on a pleasant autumn afternoon.

 

To get back to what Sam Harris said, and the two quotes at the top of this post. In my opinion, the feeling described in the OP is the numinous and it can be called spiritual but it is based in the physical brain and has nothing to do with the supernatural. Christians argue that it makes sense that God gave us the means by which to experience him. I find that to be a strange thing to say because this feeling causes people to worship so many different gods, goddesses, spirits, etc. No offense to anyone; it is my opinion that it is the same feeling that causes this and I have no way to prove it.

 

The interesting thing is that the Christians claim all the other gods are false but their own is exclusively correct--they can feel it; they just "know" it. Yet they fail to provide any evidence that their own feelings differ qualitatively in any way from the feelings of any worshipper of any other deity. Or of the atheist who experiences the numinous or feels overwhelmed with love for no explicable reason.

 

Thank you Martin..that is very informative and Ill find out more about Rudolf Otto

[Ixchel]

Sometimes I do. I still battle with my imaginary friend, even though I know better.

[Kathlene]

I have only recently deconverted, so yes I am still battling every day the thoughts going round my head. I need to get that voice out! Some days I feel absolute confusion and terror, and other days I feel free. I am making decisions that are definately non-christian now and I still feel that god is haunting me tracking me down to try and stop me. How long does this last? This guilt, this trapped feeling.

 

I don't pray anymore, read my bible or listen to christian music, but still the presence still lingers in me. When I am out in nature or listening to beautiful music I appreciate it now for what it is. It has been interesting to me to find out I still get emotional responses from music that isn't christian. That makes me think being a christian is total emotional delusion, wrapped up in making you think you've got this wonderful thing going with god, when in reality it's your own brain molding those responses and attributing them to something 'out there'.

 

When I was a christian I felt like I had a very close relationship with Jesus. He was inside my head every minute. Now I have walked away I am viewing the world totally different, and I realise it takes time to stand on new legs and new ideals about life. Its so nice to think many of you out there still struggle with this. I thought I was the only one struggling. I thought there was something wrong with me that I couldn't just completely banish it all out of my head. It has such a huge impact on every aspect of your life.

[shantonu]

I feel exactly the same way. What the heck are we supposed to do? It's a very lonely feeling.

 

Jesus is still real to me. Even though I don't believe in God. I still love and respect Jesus.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I have only recently deconverted, so yes I am still battling every day the thoughts going round my head. I need to get that voice out! Some days I feel absolute confusion and terror, and other days I feel free. I am making decisions that are definately non-christian now and I still feel that god is haunting me tracking me down to try and stop me. How long does this last? This guilt, this trapped feeling.

 

I don't pray anymore, read my bible or listen to christian music, but still the presence still lingers in me. When I am out in nature or listening to beautiful music I appreciate it now for what it is. It has been interesting to me to find out I still get emotional responses from music that isn't christian. That makes me think being a christian is total emotional delusion, wrapped up in making you think you've got this wonderful thing going with god, when in reality it's your own brain molding those responses and attributing them to something 'out there'.

 

When I was a christian I felt like I had a very close relationship with Jesus. He was inside my head every minute. Now I have walked away I am viewing the world totally different, and I realise it takes time to stand on new legs and new ideals about life. Its so nice to think many of you out there still struggle with this. I thought I was the only one struggling. I thought there was something wrong with me that I couldn't just completely banish it all out of my head. It has such a huge impact on every aspect of your life.

 

Hi Kathlene,

Before I became a Christian, when I was about 12 years old or so, I had a "counselor" that had a distinct Scottish brogue. Due to this accent I became very interested in Scotland and all things Scottish. I listened to bagpipe music and studied Scottish history. But eventually the voice in my head got too controlling and I didn't particularly like it anymore, but still felt it had some kind of authority or wisdom. We "spoke" to each other regularly, so breaking up with this voice was emotionally troubling and I was at least somewhat afraid of being without guidance. But I didn't like the way it assumed authority over me, so I told it to leave me alone. It said, "If you do this, I won't be back." I said, "I know." And that was that. It was almost like Gollum in the Lord of the Rings where he argues with his dark side until it leaves him for a while. I didn't realize until recently that the "Holy Spirit" was much the same thing, just my own mind compensating for the lack of a real voice.

 

I deconverted in the last few months, so I'd like to encourage you to keep walking on your own two feet, and realize that it takes time to change years of behavior and expectation, especially after other humans helped form the perceived reality of this spirit and God.

[jfraysse]

Hey Phaceless:

 

Personally, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to want to hang on to the “good things” you found in Jesus or Christianity. Let’s be honest – they are not without virtue! And if you associate this as a continuing “relationship with the Jesus”, so be it. I see no harm in that either.

 

Most of Christianity is based on the interpreted theology and doctrines according to Paul. So Christianity should have been more accurately referred to as “Paulianity”. Thus, honoring Jesus’ teachings and life doesn’t have to be “Christian” in an orthodox sense.

 

In my opinion, life is too short and difficult not to celebrate virtue and personal peace, no matter where you find it as long as it is not harmful to others. You don’t seem to be forcing your “truth” on others and threatening them will eternal hell if they don’t accept it. You also don’t seem to be involved in doomsday cults, child abuse, panhandling, faith healing or snake handling. As such, I see no harm in your form of spirituality but ultimately this decision is yours and yours alone.

 

Good Luck on your Journey!

 

Grace & Peace, John