MathGeek Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I just read over Piracy's recent thread and I dearly sympathize with him, yet I couldn't help but think from the obverse perspective. A less-than-kind Christian might say to him: "Well, you abandoned God and now you are paying for it. That is why you are feeling such despair." Before that, I had been pondering the topics of atheism and nihilism for what seems like the millionth time. I can't seem to find fault in the Christian logic that atheism (rejection of God according to Christianity) automatically leads to nihilism (the abandonment of every conceived topic ever developed by humankind). Even Bertrand Russell said that atheists should adopt "a philosophy of despair" because somehow rejecting "The God Hypothesis" will lead one away from meaning and happiness. I tried to think about it, and I included the ideas espoused in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=27322 If emotions really are thoughts, and somebody feels that life without God is a life without purpose, then where is that person wrong? I personally feel that the agent in question is allowed to make up their own meaning, and it seems to be that way since I've met people that espouse philosophy from divergent religious traditions. In some way, Christians are flawed when they bring this point of view, but I am trying to find that definitive answer that will assuage my doubt whenever I hear a Christian give me the "atheism to nihilism" line of reasoning again. Any thoughts will be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 8, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted January 8, 2009 That's an absurd concept. There are successful, happy atheists all over the world. Many people who have never heard of Jesus or Jehovah aren't living in despair and misery. Perusing this very site you'll see people saying that since they left Christianity they are happier, nicer, more fulfilled and more successful. To think Jesus, Jehovah, Zeus or Buddha is crucial to life having meaning negates the experience of most of the world. I just want to add that Christians whose whole world is wrapped up in Bible mythology will of course be unable to imagine a meaningful life without it. Once the irrelevance of Christianity to real life is realized, there are new opportunities to grow and prosper without blinders or shackles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Your argument is flawed. First of all, emotions are not thoughts. An emotion arises from a psychological and physiological state associated with a wide variety of feelings, thoughts and behaviour. While a thought can create an emotional response, the emotional response itself is not a thought. Thus, one can think of an emotion as a psychological response. That said, atheism doesn't necessarily automatically lead to nihilism. By definition, nihilism argues that existence is without meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. I am quite confident in my lack of belief in a god or gods, yet I am not a nihilist. I have been liberated from religious beliefs, which allows me to attribute whatever meaning I want to my life. Knowing there's no life after this one helps me to recognize the value in this life that I do have, so I attempt to get as much good out of it as possible. While the cosmos has nothing for nor against my existence, the fact is, I exist, and that is important to me. I am the god in my life, I am in control, so I cause things to happen (or not). It's fun; I get enjoyment out of learning and doing new things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Have to agree with DigitalQuirk, emotions are not thoughts. Can't survival and enjoyment of life be purpose enough? Why must there be something additional? It is religion that tells us there must be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Net Eng Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Have to agree with DigitalQuirk, emotions are not thoughts. Can't survival and enjoyment of life be purpose enough? Why must there be something additional? It is religion that tells us there must be something else. Religion and Disney movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMac Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Im sorry, what is Nihilism exactly? I know it comes from a Latin word but as far as this philosophy, I didnt want to get into too much deep reading tonight but I have heard the term many times and just never looked into it. TIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Im sorry, what is Nihilism exactly? I know it comes from a Latin word but as far as this philosophy, I didnt want to get into too much deep reading tonight but I have heard the term many times and just never looked into it. TIA From the message 3rd up from yours: By definition, nihilism argues that existence is without meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 It depends on what one means by "intrinsic" value. Christians generally try to argue either 1. that intrinsic value must be posited by a creator. or 2. that something does not have intrinsic value if it will cease to exist I.E. no afterlife == no intrinsic value. Of course I think both arguments are loads of dingo's kidneys, but as I said, it depends on how one wishes to define the term "intrinsic" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 It depends on what one means by "intrinsic" value. Christians generally try to argue either 1. that intrinsic value must be posited by a creator. or 2. that something does not have intrinsic value if it will cease to exist I.E. no afterlife == no intrinsic value. Of course I think both arguments are loads of dingo's kidneys, but as I said, it depends on how one wishes to define the term "intrinsic" From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Intrinsic value has traditionally been thought to lie at the heart of ethics. Philosophers use a number of terms to refer to such value. The intrinsic value of something is said to be the value that that thing has “in itself,” or “for its own sake,” or “as such,” or “in its own right.” As such, the intrinsic value of my existence relates to the value my existence has to myself. If a Christian argues that the value of one's existence must be posited by a creator, they are actually talking about Extrinsic Value and not Intrinsic value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 If a Christian argues that the value of one's existence must be posited by a creator, they are actually talking about Extrinsic Value and not Intrinsic value. What? you are expecting an apologist to worry about facts or dictionary definitions? 90% of apologetics is based around twisting the definitions of words to suit their ends. Apologists depends on the ignorance of their listeners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Im sorry, what is Nihilism exactly? I know it comes from a Latin word but as far as this philosophy, I didnt want to get into too much deep reading tonight but I have heard the term many times and just never looked into it. TIA FIRST MAN: Vee vant zat money, Lebowski. SECOND MAN: You sink veer kidding und making mit de funny stuff? THIRD MAN: Vee could do sings you only dreamed of, Lebowski. SECOND MAN: Ja, vee could really do it, Lebowski. Vee belief in nossing. DUDE: Jesus! DIETER: Vee belief in nossing, Lebowski! NOSSING!! DUDE: Jesus Christ! FIRST MAN: Tomorrow vee come back und cut off your chonson. DUDE: Excuse me? FIRST MAN: I SAY VEE CUT OFF YOUR CHONSON! SECOND MAN: Just sink about zat, Lebowski. FIRST MAN: Ja, your viggly penis, Lebowski. SECOND MAN: Ja, und maybe vee stamp on it und skvush it, Lebowski! FIRST MAN: Ja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmperorNortonII Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Whenever I'm feeling down and can't get tail, a steak and a beer will usually do the trick. Or, slaughter some Nazis/demons/aliens/zombies in a video game. Or hit the gym and improve myself physically. Maybe that sounds a wee bit hedonistic, but I don't think that a problem that comes from worrying about meaning in life is solved by simply thinking about it. You have to go out and get some short-term meaning, and THEN start worrying about it when you're in a state of mind that says, "Raw, red meat and sweet potato fries certainly make life awesome." EVEN if there is no intrinsic value in the world, subjective value works well enough for me. It's as easy as looking around here to see that atheism certainly doesn't prevent anyone from enjoying life- nor, really, does nihilism, for anyone who bothers to go and enjoy life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Let's see: Christian: I am a worthless slug deserving of nothing, not even pity. God can't stand my putrid smell so he covers me in his blood so that when he sees me he doesn't really see me, he sees Jesus, the epitome of everything that is not me. I am therefore slated to spend my life in hopeless pursuit of something called holiness. I will never achieve it. I will constantly fall flat on my face. I will always feel guilty for desires that I just can't seem to control; desires that almost seem innate and natural yet I know they are evil because god said so and therefore I am evil. I' so fucking happy and peaceful! Atheist: Be yourself. Like yourself or not. It's totally up to you. Do whatever you want and be happy. It doesn't matter as long as you don't hurt anyone in the process. You are free. Life is so meaningless I guess I should just go kill myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Atheist: Be yourself. Like yourself or not. It's totally up to you. Do whatever you want and be happy. It doesn't matter as long as you don't hurt anyone in the process. You are free. Life is so meaningless I guess I should just go kill myself. IMO, life is to be enjoyed since we probably only get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Well it's not that absurd of a concept, Mathgeek doesn't seem to think so. I would say more that atheism, a view of our own mortality and a good look at the world we live in leads to nihilism. Not to say you can't be a happy nihilist, things can just start to look empty and futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Life is only empty and futile if you somehow raise "meaning" to an elevated platform in your concept of reality. Life is whatever we choose it to be. I can be meaningless if you want that. It can be thrilling if you focus on that. It can be dull if that's your perspective. It just is. It doesn't have to be any of these things. It's all up to you. What I do know is that nihilists haven't figured out the ultimate meaning in life, ala that it is meaningless, for the concept of giving it meaning or not is in itself meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 If you have to have an outside force to give this life meaning, then since there is no outside force that gives God meaning, does that mean God is a nihilist? Actually, I think Christianity is more nihilistic than atheism is. Like this past Sunday at church, our preacher was preaching about the evils of atheism and how materialistic atheists are. He then started preaching about how if there is no god, then there is no point in focusing on what he thought were "higher things" and how we would all be materialistic and live life to the fullest because obviously being successful and happy in life is evil and wrong. Christians preach that this life is not important. That it's the afterlife that really matters, so we shouldn't feel any attachment or love for the things of this world. Jesus even says you're supposed to hate your life and family if you want to follow him, but Christians always conveniently skip that verse when they read the bible. It makes no sense to me that Christians will say this life has no meaning, but then turn around and say God gives their life meaning. Either life is meaningless and it's the afterlife that counts or God gives their lives meaning. I wish Christians would make up their minds which one it is because they can't have it both ways. As an atheist, I think life has more meaning because this is the only life we have. Since there could be no afterlife, then that's why we should live life to the fullest and cherish the precious moments we can share together. But I think this whole question of what the meaning to life is is a redundant question. It's like asking what's the purpose of breathing. Obviously, the purpose of breathing is to breathe and provide oxygen for the body. What you do with your breathing is up to you. Nobody stops and debate the philosophical meaning of what the purpose of breathing is, but for some reason people do with life in general. If life has any purpose to it at all, the purpose is to live. What you do with living is up you to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysealclubber Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I was something of a nihilist as a christian, and I remain one as an atheist. I've said it once before, I'll say it again. 'Nothing matters much, but it doesn't matter that it doesn't matter.' (Basically a pithy version of what Vigile said.) Philosophies are not mutually exclusive. One can accept solipsism, nihilism, existentialism, or whatever else. It's just a launching point, don't let one philosophy weigh you down to the point of immobilization or narrow-mindedness. That's what happened to me. I got all wrapped up in it, and it (among other things) caused me to sink into a deep depression. Don't worry about christians saying that atheism leads to nihilism. So what if it does? It's a stupid argument. Best of luck, seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 So very true. It's like the study of moral and ethics in philosophy, you kind of end up with allowing several methods or ideas exist simultaneous, instead of letting just one take dominance. To let Nihilism become a person's new religion, only means that the person went from one religion to the next. Don't take anything for granted, but keep an open mind and keep on researching and learn. Never stop for something as the "Ultimate, Final Answer," but just keep on going... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babysealclubber Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Actually, I'd like to expand my idea of 'Christian Nihilism.' The way I saw it, there was no real morality, because Jesus had forgiven our sins. You could do anything, anything you wanted without serious eternal consequences. You just had to believe, which never really made sense, but was somehow comforting. The way I saw it, the universe was immense, and we were just tiny specks of nothing. I didn't believe in the big bang, but it was pretty undeniable that I was pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. What difference could I possibly make if I couldn't move even one little star out of billions upon billions? Even if it was possible for me to move a mountain with prayer, what difference could that possibly make? I'm not sure if that's even remotely helpful to you mathgeek, but it helped me a bit to write it out. Must be my selfish, atheistic tendencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts