Grasping And Aversion (aka "attachment")

[Guest dharma_dude]

I hesitate to write this because I don't want anyone to think, after their adverse experiences with other faith traditions, that I'm interested in converting them over to a new one, but I can't help noticing that "grasping and aversion" really do seem to be at the heart of a huge amount of suffering experienced by people who are disillusioned with Christianity. When I read things like "ex-Christians don't exist!" (from fundamentalists) and, OTOH, "My fondest dream is to see the numbers of Xians dramatically reduced before I leave this planet. (not through violence of course, but deconversion)" (from disilluioned former ones), I hear both grasping and aversion.

 

"Grasping" means holding on too tightly to a fixed concept, posession, idea, goal, etc. The truth is that every fixed thing in this world is impermanent. If we hold on too tightly to any fixed thing, whether it is a concept of ourselves or in ourselves, a fixed expectation of others, a material possession, and so on, we set ourselves up for suffering and disappointment exactly in the measure of the rigidity of our attachment to it. In Buddhism, this truth is referred to as the Second Noble Truth, the truth about "attachments."

 

Everything I've read here seems to further validate the essence of this truth.

 

I hope people who "deconvert" from Christianity are still able to see the positive aspects of their former faith, and continue to cultivate those, so that their aversion to the negative ones does not unduly cling to them and leave a lingering distaste and distortion in their minds and views. It seems that most people here are able to see their way past negativity, and to still see the truth and beauty in many aspects of Christ's message. That's a hopeful sign.

[Deva]

Dharma_Dude: Welcome. May I ask what your experience is with Christianity?

[florduh]

Welcome!

 

True, the nature of life is change, and the nature of our minds is to resist that change. If we train ourselves to "go with the flow" we will no doubt be happier with what life throws at us. We can cause ourselves less friction and emotional trauma if, like Cool Hand Luke, we "get our minds right."

 

Easier said than done, but sometimes a codified system such as Buddhism can help people to accept, let go, and just be more content.

[Guest dharma_dude]

Dharma_Dude: Welcome. May I ask what your experience is with Christianity?

 

My experience is mainly having discussions with Christians, many of whom were looking to "win me over"! The other experience I have had is working with people from progressive faith groups, like the Catholic Workers, whom I admire (and they never tried to convert me either).

[Deva]

I hope people who "deconvert" from Christianity are still able to see the positive aspects of their former faith, and continue to cultivate those, so that their aversion to the negative ones does not unduly cling to them and leave a lingering distaste and distortion in their minds and views. It seems that most people here are able to see their way past negativity, and to still see the truth and beauty in many aspects of Christ's message. That's a hopeful sign

 

That is an admirable motivation, but given your limited background with Christianity, I wonder if you have read, or would take some time to read some of the accounts in the "Testimonies of Former Christians." I think that would be helpful for you to understand what some of us have been through. What I am saying is that for some here, you may be asking too much.

[GraphicsGuy]

I hope people who "deconvert" from Christianity are still able to see the positive aspects of their former faith

 

I see no positive aspects of organized religion except for - possibly - the social network.

 

Organized Evangelical Xianity is a diseased organism as far as I'm concerned. The extremism is truly damaging; especially to those suffering from any form of mental illness.

 

And just so you know, I think that extreme Atheism is also not a particularly healthy mindset either. Though I do think it's better than talking to imaginary friends, belief in demons, and belief in *poof* type "everything's okay now" magic.

 

"Faith" (as a very general term) can be a wonderful thing.

 

Rabid belief is something else entirely.

[ghostchild]

I hesitate to write this because I don't want anyone to think, after their adverse experiences with other faith traditions, that I'm interested in converting them over to a new one, but I can't help noticing that "grasping and aversion" really do seem to be at the heart of a huge amount of suffering experienced by people who are disillusioned with Christianity. When I read things like "ex-Christians don't exist!" (from fundamentalists) and, OTOH, "My fondest dream is to see the numbers of Xians dramatically reduced before I leave this planet. (not through violence of course, but deconversion)" (from disilluioned former ones), I hear both grasping and aversion.

 

"Grasping" means holding on too tightly to a fixed concept, posession, idea, goal, etc. The truth is that every fixed thing in this world is impermanent. If we hold on too tightly to any fixed thing, whether it is a concept of ourselves or in ourselves, a fixed expectation of others, a material possession, and so on, we set ourselves up for suffering and disappointment exactly in the measure of the rigidity of our attachment to it. In Buddhism, this truth is referred to as the Second Noble Truth, the truth about "attachments."

 

Everything I've read here seems to further validate the essence of this truth.

 

I hope people who "deconvert" from Christianity are still able to see the positive aspects of their former faith, and continue to cultivate those, so that their aversion to the negative ones does not unduly cling to them and leave a lingering distaste and distortion in their minds and views. It seems that most people here are able to see their way past negativity, and to still see the truth and beauty in many aspects of Christ's message. That's a hopeful sign.

 

So... we're not meant to care that the abusive, violent, mind-controlling systems we fought to escape from still have millions of victims in their power? We're just meant to stick our heads in the sand, not think about it? People who claim they want to reduce or see the reduction of belief in the christian religions aren't grasping and aversive, they're trying to do a good thing and like any person who devotes their life to charity work, they care a lot about it. If this is what buddhism teaches, that caring is bad, then i don't really see much good in it.

 

The point is to care enough to act with your whole heart, but not so much that it takes over your whole soul. There's a balance, sure, but i see very few ex-christians crossing it, if any. Also, as a person who never went through this, you kinda don't know what you're talking about. Please don't tell us how we should view our abusers, especially when you seem to be saying "don't hate christianity too much or you'll not be able to be a moral person!."

 

Thanks.

[florduh]

still see the truth and beauty in many aspects of Christ's message

 

 

There are a lot of people who like to find some good in everything. Some think there must be kernels of Truth and Enlightenment in every religion just because they're, well, religions after all. Since most religions parrot each other on certain concepts, that may be somewhat the case.

 

What we get frequently here is the person who has "seen through" man's distortion of the great truths taught by Jesus. We have merely misinterpreted Christianity, while they have the correct understanding, of course.

 

That attitude can press a lot of buttons here. Religion has done some real damage to a lot of people. Tread lightly.

[Guest dharma_dude]

It's quite true, I don't have much specific insight into Christianity or personal experience with it. But on the other hand, although speaking as an outsider, I still see some universal truths that appear in these situations. One of the things I've noticed about Christianity is that it puts a premium on "justice." There are "scales" of justice, and there is a definite "Judgment Day" when those scales will be perfectly balanced. I recently heard a talk in which someone remarked on the hazards of this concept. There is another idea of "justice" within Hinduism and Buddhism called "Karma," or the law of cause and effect. The interesting thing about Karma is that it does not require the intervention of a specific being, divine or otherwise, to work itself out.

 

If one develops an understanding of cause and effect, action and reaction, then the nature of injustice becomes more transparent. No one ever really totally escapes from the wake left by harmful actions. Naturally, it's inappropriate to tell anyone who has suffered great cruelties and injustices at the hands of another to just "get over it" and leave things to "Karma". But at best, one can hope that we learn over time to be really thoughtful, and reflect on how one wrong often begets another, and vow to develop qualities within ourselves like patience and tolerance enough that we avoid unnecessarily contributing to the cycle of suffering by unskillful responses. Often the urge to "right the scales of justice" actually leads us to just continue perpetuating the wakes of injustice.

[florduh]

Dude, you just came from a New Age seminar of some sort, didn't you?

[Purple]

Buddhism or at least parts of it's philosophy were a big step to walking out of Christianity for me, and for that I'm truly greatful.

 

Are there good parts to xianity? Fundamentalist xianity I'd have to say no, if there was it is spoiled by the overwhelming fear and bigotry. More liberal forms may have some good to offer, but again there is a huge design flaw at the core. You speak of the "justice" in xianity, the thing is that justice is based on all human kind being bad from birth. Granted it puts us all in the same boat which would be good, except it's the boat of, "no matter what you do you're a filthy rag." It's a bad beginning premise, yes, some may rise above that to find some good, but to really do so you have to ignore the core.

[Guest dharma_dude]

Dude, you just came from a New Age seminar of some sort, didn't you?

 

No ,but I've turned towards doing a regular meditation practice over many years, after years of working as a leftwing social justice activist and discovering that I was just getting angrier and angrier. I could be wrong, but somehow I feel like I can relate to Christianity a little bit, in both its positive and negative aspects.

[Purple]

I could be wrong, but somehow I feel like I can relate to Christianity a little bit, in both its positive and negative aspects.

 

Why? or maybe I should ask how?

[florduh]

Dude, you just came from a New Age seminar of some sort, didn't you?

 

No ,but I've turned towards doing a regular meditation practice over many years, after years of working as a leftwing social justice activist and discovering that I was just getting angrier and angrier. I could be wrong, but somehow I feel like I can relate to Christianity a little bit, in both its positive and negative aspects.

 

 

That post just seemed a bit preachy to me. I felt like I was expected to buy a book or some CDs in the lobby on my way out.

[woodsmoke]

I suppose it's been a while since we had the last condescending Buddhist stumble upon Dave's house and decide we're all ripe for the feast of Wisdom he has to offer. Must be that time again.

 

I don't mean to chase you off before you've had the chance to get to know us and decide whether you like it here, DD, but as Florduh implied, you'll find we don't much appreciate being preached at, regardless of the faith/philosophy of the preacher. You'd do well to follow Deva's advice, cool your heels for a while and hang out and read a bit before you start in with giving us The Answers.

[Guest dharma_dude]

I could be wrong, but somehow I feel like I can relate to Christianity a little bit, in both its positive and negative aspects.

 

Why? or maybe I should ask how?

 

In one sense, there's a utopian element to both Christianity (eg, the "Kingdom of God") and leftism (Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, etc). The danger with any sort of utopianism is that it runs the risk of alienating you from the "imperfect" present. Fundamentalists in particular often work themselves into a fury about things that deviate from their notions of traditional morality. Leftists often go around in a semi-permanent state of fury about current and historical injustices in our society. Personally I found it imperative to manage my own anger over "imperfection," while still not losing my aspirations to work for a better world. The practices that I've found involving meditation have been helpful to me. I don't claim they will necessarily be helpful to everyone. The one thing that does seem vital is to actually have a PRACTICE, as in a practical way of engaging with the world. We in this society are too caught up in words, philosophies, and mediated images of reality. What is the point of arguing continuously about what this or that person said thousands of years ago? Or even what Mr. Obama or Mr. Bush said on television yesterday? These things are largely alien and irrelevant to real life.

[Deva]

In one sense, there's a utopian element to both Christianity (eg, the "Kingdom of God") and leftism (Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, etc). The danger with any sort of utopianism is that it runs the risk of alienating you from the "imperfect" present.

 

You seem to be very unfamiliar with some varieties of Christianity. I am not sure what variety you are referring to, but where the type of Christianity I came from, not only is the present "imperfect", that is a gross understatement. It is a corrupted, fallen world ruled by Satan. Not only this world but the human nature itself.

 

We in this society are too caught up in words, philosophies, and mediated images of reality. What is the point of arguing continuously about what this or that person said thousands of years ago? Or even what Mr. Obama or Mr. Bush said on television yesterday? These things are largely alien and irrelevant to real life.

 

I wouldn't go too far in trying to push this parallel of fundamentalism and "leftists". I am not exactly sure what you mean by "leftists", but I doubt it holds up. Agreed we are too caught up in words and philosophies. I am not upholding Christianity by any means, but you seem to fail to realize how much Christianity (especially Protestant fundamentalism) depends on the accuracy of a book, which they refer to as "God's word". Therefore, what "this or that" person said thousands of years ago is totally relevant to them. I suggest you do some more in depth study of Christianity to discover why they may not consider arguing such matters "alien and irrelevant to real life," before trying to preach to those of us who escaped the trap. Again, I suggest you read the "Testimonies" section.

[Guest dharma_dude]

I suppose it's been a while since we had the last condescending Buddhist stumble upon Dave's house and decide we're all ripe for the feast of Wisdom he has to offer. Must be that time again.

 

I don't mean to chase you off before you've had the chance to get to know us and decide whether you like it here, DD, but as Florduh implied, you'll find we don't much appreciate being preached at, regardless of the faith/philosophy of the preacher. You'd do well to follow Deva's advice, cool your heels for a while and hang out and read a bit before you start in with giving us The Answers.

 

That is a perfectly understandable reaction. As I said, I hesitated to post anything because I cringe at the thought of coming off like some kind of "guru" with answers for anyone else. But I do see certain analogies and similarities between Christianity and my own experiences, and I have a certain kind of odd sympathy -- again, being involved with radical leftism can sometimes bear strange resemblances to fundamentalist Christianity.

 

The aspect of utopianism is present in both, the discomfort with moral ambiguity, and the quest to witness a final, epic resolution of the tension between "good" and "evil." Personally I don't totally reject utopianism to the extent that it provides purely positive aspirations. There are worse options for sure. It may be, however, that some people need stiff corrective medicine. Centuries of conservative stagnancy sometimes have to be punctuated by moments of destructive revolutionary zeal. (Not "have to" in the normative sense, but in the "karmic" one.) In the same way, some people may need a stiff dose of righteous antireligious atheism to undo the damage that fundamentalism has caused them. If so, far be it from me to begrudge them!

[Amethyst]

Welcome.

 

Just so you know, this sub-forum is meant to be a safe place to vent freely without fear of judgment by Christians around them, losing their job for saying non-politically correct things, etc. Hence you will see things you probably consider negative. Being able to let off steam is much needed in the anger phase of deconversion, which nearly everyone goes through.

 

There is a sub-forum here that may interest you called Ex-Christian Theism or Spirituality, for people to discuss alternative belief systems.

[Dhampir]

The thing about religion is that NOTHING good that comes from them can't be found elsewhere. So why bother trying to see the good if one doesn't already?

[Guest dharma_dude]

The thing about religion is that NOTHING good that comes from them can't be found elsewhere. So why bother trying to see the good if one doesn't already?

 

Quite right:

 

Ultimately, "religion" is just a word that has enormous elasticity in meaning. It can be a life affirming tool for some. If it's a tool that is useful to you then use it. If it's not, don't. But above all, human tools of all kinds should serve human beings and life in general, and not vice versa. Religion, however, is certainly not the only example of a human tool or institution that has a history of taking on a life of its own and making people serve it -- even to their own detriment sometimes -- instead of vice versa.

[Neon Genesis]

Leftists often go around in a semi-permanent state of fury about current and historical injustices in our society.

You mean people aren't supposed to feel pissed off at injustice in society? What, are we supposed to be happy and grateful for it? Yeah, I can see you going up to a black person and telling them that they shouldn't feel pissed off at racial injustice. Why don't you go try doing that if you honestly believe that?

 

Or even what Mr. Obama or Mr. Bush said on television yesterday? These things are largely alien and irrelevant to real life.

Since when? What reality did you crawl out of?

[Purple]

I could be wrong, but somehow I feel like I can relate to Christianity a little bit, in both its positive and negative aspects.

 

Why? or maybe I should ask how?

 

In one sense, there's a utopian element to both Christianity (eg, the "Kingdom of God") and leftism (Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, etc). The danger with any sort of utopianism is that it runs the risk of alienating you from the "imperfect" present.

 

I suppose, but what I see as the problem, I'm not sure I'd use the word danger, with fundamental xianity is the flip side. They go to Heaven, everyone else goes to Hell. I quickly find xians devide people into 2 camps one being the "us" camp the other being the "others" camp. The "others" are only good in so much as they can be made into "us". If they cannot be brought over onto the "us" side they are barely even human. A person can justify all manner of evil they do if they do it to an "other" that isn't even human.

 

Fundamentalists in particular often work themselves into a fury about things that deviate from their notions of traditional morality. Leftists often go around in a semi-permanent state of fury about current and historical injustices in our society. Personally I found it imperative to manage my own anger over "imperfection," while still not losing my aspirations to work for a better world.

 

What, to you, is a "leftist".

 

The practices that I've found involving meditation have been helpful to me. I don't claim they will necessarily be helpful to everyone. The one thing that does seem vital is to actually have a PRACTICE, as in a practical way of engaging with the world.

 

What do you mean by a "practice"? We all need a practical way of dealing with the world, ok, but a practice? I don't think I have a "practice" yet I deal with the world just fine. I'm not walking around pissed off all the time at injustice.I think the recent passage of prop 8 here in california was unjust. I did what I could to try to see it defeated, and I continue to do so, but I am not walking around pissed off about it's passage, or doing anything illegal or violent. I don't have to go meditate to deal with it, or do anything else. Are my actions always perfect, and do I never lose my temper? NO, but then I've yet to meet anyone, who pratices anything that has reached that perfection.

 

 

We in this society are too caught up in words, philosophies, and mediated images of reality. What is the point of arguing continuously about what this or that person said thousands of years ago? Or even what Mr. Obama or Mr. Bush said on television yesterday? These things are largely alien and irrelevant to real life.

 

A debate or argument on things that are irrelevant is not nessicarily bad. If you do not work yourself up into a tizzy it can actaully be a fun engagement of the mind. What Mr Bush, and Mr. Obama say can have a HUGE impact on real life though.

 

What was written 1000 years ago is largely alien to my life. Yet, it can infringe on my life if others decide to make laws using thousand or 2000 year old text to make laws. When that happens I don't think it should go unchallenged.