Justin Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 This deals with the prohibition of the Ammonites and Moabites from entering into the kingdom of God as described in Nehemiah and Deuteronomy of Ammon and Moab hireing Balaam to curse the Israelities. The contradiction lies with Christ himself being of Moabite decent if, as the Bible states, his blood line comes from David. Very interesting read. http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Blake Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Finding contradictions in the bible is a bit like finding water in a pond. How stupid must anyone be to think the bible is infallible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Finding contradictions in the bible is a bit like finding water in a pond. How stupid must anyone be to think the bible is infallible? Thanks for stating the obvious. Any feedback on the subject now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Interesting. So by God's command, Jesus heritage is condemned and will never enter Heaven. And God is Jesus, so Jesus outlawed himself... Sounds like the biggest F-up in history! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PandaPirate Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 LMAO. That's a good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I used to scoff at these websites that listed contradictions and said that most of them were so laughable I couldn't take them seriously. But now that I no longer have the mindset that the bible is the infallible word of God I can see there really are huge numbers of contradictions. But what I have found out now is that such sites as we see on the net are only scratching the surface. You just have to see debates involving Christians to see what contradictions there are. One Christian has one view and backs it up with scripture while another has an opposing view and also backs it up with scripture. It's just crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Interesting. So by God's command, Jesus heritage is condemned and will never enter Heaven. And God is Jesus, so Jesus outlawed himself... Sounds like the biggest F-up in history! Yep, sounds rational. My thought: jackpot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I've read this contradiction a few times over the past couple of days and have reviewed all of the cited text in the KJV and it's all there. This has gotten me to think about following the lineage of Mary back to the beginning and see what all is there for her. Any bible believer would easily say like he even points out in the contradiction that David was actually the 10th generation and that Joseph wasn't even his real father so it doens't count. But it would have to count because prophesy says that the messiah will come from the davidic bloodline. hmm.... I need to read more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 This deals with the prohibition of the Ammonites and Moabites from entering into the kingdom of God as described in Nehemiah and Deuteronomy of Ammon and Moab hireing Balaam to curse the Israelities. The contradiction lies with Christ himself being of Moabite decent if, as the Bible states, his blood line comes from David. Very interesting read. http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html hmmm... never heard of this one! Very interesting find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 How stupid must anyone be to think the bible is infallible? uh ... thanks. Well, many people -- including me and several other members of this board -- thought the bible is infallible. I may be stupid, but a lot of the other ex-c's aren't -- they're brilliant people, and all of us, for whatever reason, fell for a scam. We believed a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I was told once that the lineage in Luke was that of Mary instead of Joseph, but it clearly points to Joseph. I learned later that some people think this because Jehoiakim is included in Luke's geneology of Jesus and there is a curse given in Jeremiah 36:30 "Now this is what the LORD says about King Jehoiakim of Judah: He will have no heirs to sit on the throne of David. His dead body will be thrown out to lie unburied- exposed to the heat of the day and the frost of the night." They conclude that since it is clear that this would exclude Jesus as a possible king of Israel that the geneology has to be Mary's and not Joseph's. But Luke makes it clear that this is not his intent when he says "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat..." So either way, there is a problem and the scripture is not infallible as is often stated. The above argument is more cognitive dissonance to try to make the Bible story work when it clearly does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathGeek Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I will read the link later, but here is my theory. Since the discovery of DNA, doesn't ANY kind of bloodline argument become moot? If the Jews really are a race of people, don't they carry a specific genetic sequence that makes them seperate from say the Asiastic peoples or the European people of our geneological past? Furthermore, since Mary was a jew, wouldn't Jesus have carried that genetic sequence with him? Since both lines (Joseph and Mary are jews) and there is a significant amount of inter-breeding in the Jewish population, wouldn't this claim of rightful lineage be kind of pointless? I know my reasoning seems strange, but I am surprised that I haven't heard a Christian apologist take up this sort of argument, but yet they'd need the body of Mary and the body of Jesus to ensure such a genetic test could be performed and a trained geneticist would need to be skilled enough to find such genetic markers. Point is, this very issue may strike at the very heart of Christianity itself and since the bodies of Jesus AND Mary were taken to Heaven, that may be the perfect excuse. If I made no sense here, this is what happens when my mind runs wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Didn't the Jews do a little outbreeding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Justin -- I can't stop thinking about this. Am going to rewrite/edit for brevity and focus, and show it to my husband, and our daughter and son in law and some other fundies, for their response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Justin -- I can't stop thinking about this. Am going to rewrite/edit for brevity and focus, and show it to my husband, and our daughter and son in law and some other fundies, for their response. I had already started to but if you're going to then please do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think I will ask a fundie too, but I will disguise it by asking what his thoughts are on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think I will ask a fundie too, but I will disguise it by asking what his thoughts are on it. Oh yes... I could in no way just drop this on his desk and say - "alrighty, prove it different!" But instead have to tactic of, "Hey guy....I've been studying religion, You know I'm torn about what to do - and well here's some questions I've put together and I was hoping maybe you could help me out with them. I mean you know the bible inside and out! If there is a guy in this area that I could come to about understanding the Lord that would be you right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Justin -- I can't stop thinking about this. Am going to rewrite/edit for brevity and focus, and show it to my husband, and our daughter and son in law and some other fundies, for their response. I had already started to but if you're going to then please do... Oh, I would totally appreciate comparing notes so to speak. I'm still in the reading / thinking stage anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafutopia Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I think I will ask a fundie too, but I will disguise it by asking what his thoughts are on it. Oh yes... I could in no way just drop this on his desk and say - "alrighty, prove it different!" But instead have to tactic of, "Hey guy.... Good ideas. I haven't decided how to ask my husband and family members about it, but intend to approach the preacher and some other church people from the angle of the Israel versus Arab conflicts -- beginning with, "who were the Moabites and the Ammonites, and what does the Bible say about them". All the fundies I know personally insist that the KJV or New KJV is "the only faithful version of the Bible" so first off I need to look up the Bible passages listed at the OP link (which uses the RSV bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html) Update -- after catching up on this thread, I decided to go ahead and stop procrastinating on this interesting little project! Am editing out all the comments about discrepancies, contradictions, Holy Spirit, etc. Just focusing on the actual Bible verses re the Maobites / Ammonites curse and then will wrap it up with the Jesus genealogies. Would like to get the whole thing down to one page, easy to read and very focused, clear, and non-ranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think I will ask a fundie too, but I will disguise it by asking what his thoughts are on it. Oh yes... I could in no way just drop this on his desk and say - "alrighty, prove it different!" But instead have to tactic of, "Hey guy.... Good ideas. I haven't decided how to ask my husband and family members about it, but intend to approach the preacher and some other church people from the angle of the Israel versus Arab conflicts -- beginning with, "who were the Moabites and the Ammonites, and what does the Bible say about them". All the fundies I know personally insist that the KJV or New KJV is "the only faithful version of the Bible" so first off I need to look up the Bible passages listed at the OP link (which uses the RSV bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html) Update -- after catching up on this thread, I decided to go ahead and stop procrastinating on this interesting little project! Am editing out all the comments about discrepancies, contradictions, Holy Spirit, etc. Just focusing on the actual Bible verses re the Maobites / Ammonites curse and then will wrap it up with the Jesus genealogies. Would like to get the whole thing down to one page, easy to read and very focused, clear, and non-ranty. Please post your findings here when you're done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I am thinking that they might say something along the lines of: Jesus was Moabite in order to clear the way to the kingdom of heaven for Moabites... ...or something like that. That is the first answer that came to my head. It would kinda mesh with the idea that Jesus became human in order to share in our condition and to take on our sins and save us...you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, Jesus being Moabite was part of the plan for the redemption of Moabites. I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyHypatia Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think apologists would say Ruth converted and turned away from idols. Still not a great argument as the Bible makes no exceptions for foriegners who convert. There is a passage I'm thinking about where a soldier can take a wife from those he conquers. She has to have her head shaved. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I am thinking that they might say something along the lines of: Jesus was Moabite in order to clear the way to the kingdom of heaven for Moabites... ...or something like that. That is the first answer that came to my head. It would kinda mesh with the idea that Jesus became human in order to share in our condition and to take on our sins and save us...you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, Jesus being Moabite was part of the plan for the redemption of Moabites. I dunno. That is probably what my friend will come up with, but that would be like God flooding the world again to stop global warming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I am thinking that they might say something along the lines of: Jesus was Moabite in order to clear the way to the kingdom of heaven for Moabites... ...or something like that. That is the first answer that came to my head. It would kinda mesh with the idea that Jesus became human in order to share in our condition and to take on our sins and save us...you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, Jesus being Moabite was part of the plan for the redemption of Moabites. I dunno. That is probably what my friend will come up with, but that would be like God flooding the world again to stop global warming. Yeah, also really redundant. Seeing as Jesus died once for all, it seems like it wouldn't be necessary for him to be specifically Moabite. Like, the Moabites would be considered in the "all". Then again, Jesus had to come from somewhere. And seeing as God is God, he can make Jesus *also God) be descended from wherever and whomever he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Well, the Christian deity being racist isn't exactly news, but I hope this makes people think. And it directly contradicts Christianity's core belief that anyone who converts can get into heaven. Surely there are Americans who are descendants of these people and who are also practicing Christians...has any research ever been done on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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