In Response To Kcdad

[Munk]

Maybe you haven't figured out the RIGHT question to ask... not "why the christian god and not some other"...

but why do Christians call God "GOD" and not Yhwh, Ra, Allah or some other name like other people do.

You have to understand to them there is only one God. God is Allah is Yhwh is whoever...

WHen you asked that question it probably didn't compute with their preconceptions.

 

I bet they understand that some other religions worship the same God, (Catholics, Baptists, Jews, etc) though they do it differently.

It is not a big stretch for them to understand that non-judeo-christian religions do too.

 

baby steps... that is what learning is all about... until that light bulb moment when it falls into place... then Eureka!

 

(You also have to remember that your mother probably learned at a very young age that women are not supposed to think... that is the man's job.)

 

This is a continuance of a discussion on SWIM's Hell, an excessive punishment which was rightly closed due to severe deviation from its intended purpose. However, I cannot just let this be, so I'm starting this thread, and I hope it is in the right place. I didn't make this a PM since I personally don't mind if other site members join in as well, since IMO there are a few others here who are a bit miffed due to similar statements as the one above. If it is inappropriate I will gladly cease participating in this thread and switch to PMing.

 

Kcdad, I'm am becoming very sick of you explaining something to me that I experienced. I lived it for a good chunk of my life, you did not, yet you are somehow trying to tell me I am mistaken. Do not condescend to me about something you never went through. I feel I have said in plain enough terms often enough that I lived in this environment yet you feel the need to educate me on it. You have a right to your opinions, but do not treat them as facts when you have no personal experience with the situation.

 

Fundamentalists do not think all god worship is for the same god. They believe other religions are all forms of Satan worship whether the practitioners are aware of it or not. I know this because it was TAUGHT TO ME. Not everyone in the world is as "enlightened" as you.

 

As for calling god just god, it was always taught to be understood that god had so many names that the title god was suitable to encompass them all. And by many names no, I am NOT including those of religions outside of Judeo-Christian mythology, for using such names would be an insult to our true creator since we would be using names of man-made idols and false gods.

 

I'm becoming sick of your attitude and your telling me about my own religious past. Your attitude is no different from the religious leaders I dealt with while still christian. I'm sorry you cannot come to terms with the fact that there are gullible people out there who are happy to believe ludicrous things, but do not dare tell me I am mistaken about my own background since you have NO experience in fundamentalism whatsoever.

 

I speak only for myself, and quite honestly, your constant skimming over of my repeated assertions that i have been there done that is very irritating and really getting on my nerves. In a sense I admire your optimism, but as we southerners like to say, "the truth ain't always pretty". There are people, sadly, who are willing to settle for explanations that for more naturally curious people or people lucky enough to receive higher education are sub-par. Sometimes, even with collegiate level studies it still rolls right off and they twist science to support a 6,000 year old earth. I had one of these speakers come to my school and I attended his lecture.

 

My biggest issue with you is your seeming attempts to either completely ignore the fact that I was involved in this kind of lifestyle or to educate me on how I am mistaken about something I spent 15 years in with serious devotion.

[white_raven23]

I'm going to respond to this.

 

Thought I'd wait....but this deserves support.

 

Kcdad is rude, and I still cannot figure out why he's here....other than to tell us we are all wrong, and he is privy to Da Trooth.

 

Did I mention he's rude? His interpersonal communications could be outdone by a rhino with diarrhea.

 

Oh...by the way.....he's RUDE!

[Neon Genesis]

I agree that KC is rude and I get pissed off when he tells other members what they really think, like claiming what ex-c members hate is fundamentalism and not the bible, as if he somehow knows what ex-c members think better than ex-c members do. KC, what's the point of being a follower of Jesus/Yeshua/whatever the flavor of the month is if you're not going to at least try to not judge others lest you be judged, or is that another one of those verses that's conveniently metaphorical?

[MathGeek]

I will also say something. Coming from a fellow teacher, I think you are obliged to explain why everybody in your humble opinion is wrong. We are not a bunch of green college freshmen you can exploit with your presumed omniscience and vocal arrogance. As a teacher, I figured you'd at least be respectful enough to us to explain calmly and rationally why we are wrong in our opinions. I have to be that way because I teach math to high school students. The ones who don't or can't understand me get help elsewhere and I encourage that greatly. I personally think your arrogance is one of the reasons why a lot of students don't come back to you and the ones who do only do it because there is academic need for it. Maybe I am pissing into the wind here, but your methods of operation are not conducive to learning either here on this board or in the classroom.

 

If you find this message offensive, please feel free to disregard it.

[Legion]

... he tells other members what they really think...

If he is in fact doing this, then I think he should be watched very carefully. In my experience this is an indication of someone who has serious boundary issues.

[florduh]

Munk, I stopped reading his posts a while ago. I can recommend that tactic to you.

[white_raven23]

... he tells other members what they really think...

If he is in fact doing this, then I think he should be watched very carefully. In my experience this is an indication of someone who has serious boundary issues.

 

 

LOL!!!

 

Oh geez...that reminds me of an old Dilbert cartoon strip. The foreign guy (pre-Asok)....I think his name was Nardo or something....he was nose to nose with Dilbert and Dilbert ordered him to take his hands out of his pockets....and Nardo replies with "Oh...they are for your use only..right?"

 

 

Boundary issues.

[chefranden]

Munk, I stopped reading his posts a while ago. I can recommend that tactic to you.

 

Me too. Don't feed the troll.

 

I believe that it was Charlotte-Joko-Beck in Everyday Zen that told a story about being at a Zen retreat with just such a rude bozo. Anyway the rest of the group ganged up on him and drove him out. Upon finding out that the guy had left, the master drove off to find him and brought him back. He then admonished the group for their behavior and confessed that he paid this fellow to attend so that the students would have something to practice on. Webmaster is there something we don't know going on here?

[Robbobrob]

Peace be onto you, KCDad.

[Guest kcdad]

I agree that KC is rude and I get pissed off when he tells other members what they really think, like claiming what ex-c members hate is fundamentalism and not the bible, as if he somehow knows what ex-c members think better than ex-c members do. KC, what's the point of being a follower of Jesus/Yeshua/whatever the flavor of the month is if you're not going to at least try to not judge others lest you be judged, or is that another one of those verses that's conveniently metaphorical?

 

I have already, several times, explained why their issue is not with a collection of ancient writings, but with those prevailing interpretations of them that they have encountered. They can feel are martyred and insulted all they want. If it makes you feel better, pretend I insulted their mothers as well. (Although enough of you all have already done that)

 

If you think I am being rude, substitute your name every time you read "believer", "xtian" or "church" in your own writings. (Talk about the herd mentality and safety within the herd)

 

There are millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take The Bible literally, do not believe it is the transcribed word of God, have a sophisticated understanding of "inspiration" and do not think Jesus is, was or will be a deity in any sense other than we are all or can be.

So when you bitch about Christians and there fundamentalism, you are bitching about the fundamentalism, not the Christian.

 

How can lump Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, in the same category as Benny Hinn, or your aunt Martha?

 

Cut and paste one personal judgment I have made about anyone, that wasn't really a criticism directed at an opinion expressed. (If you think criticizing opinions is personal, you do not belong on a forum of discussing and debating issues.)

[RankStranger]

I have some really trollish tendencies on other forums, but I try to keep it in check around here because I respect people on this site.

 

But I gotta say, KCDad- if your trollish behavior is intentional, then my hat's off to you. Well-played, sir. I only WISH I had such talent.

 

On the other hand, if the majority of your posts were meant to be anything akin to discussion, fruitful debate, or genuine interaction... then you're an ass.

[Deva]

[snip]

There are millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take The Bible literally, do not believe it is the transcribed word of God, have a sophisticated understanding of "inspiration" and do not think Jesus is, was or will be a deity in any sense other than we are all or can be.

So when you bitch about Christians and there fundamentalism, you are bitching about the fundamentalism, not the Christian.

 

How can lump Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, in the same category as Benny Hinn, or your aunt Martha?

 

Cut and paste one personal judgment I have made about anyone, that wasn't really a criticism directed at an opinion expressed. (If you think criticizing opinions is personal, you do not belong on a forum of discussing and debating issues.)

 

You have shown repeatedly (or do you deny it?) that you have an overall low opinion of the intelligence of the people on this site, which is offensive. You do not discuss. You merely state your opinion as if it were a fact. You cannot prove that there are "millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take the Bible literally." You have shown (by your exchange with Munk) that you know absolutely nothing about fundamentalism.

 

You are a follower of Jesus, and this is a site for Ex-Christians. You are a troll.

[Guest Emerwen]

[snip]

There are millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take The Bible literally, do not believe it is the transcribed word of God, have a sophisticated understanding of "inspiration" and do not think Jesus is, was or will be a deity in any sense other than we are all or can be.

So when you bitch about Christians and there fundamentalism, you are bitching about the fundamentalism, not the Christian.

 

How can lump Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, in the same category as Benny Hinn, or your aunt Martha?

 

Cut and paste one personal judgment I have made about anyone, that wasn't really a criticism directed at an opinion expressed. (If you think criticizing opinions is personal, you do not belong on a forum of discussing and debating issues.)

 

You have shown repeatedly (or do you deny it?) that you have an overall low opinion of the intelligence of the people on this site, which is offensive. You do not discuss. You merely state your opinion as if it were a fact. You cannot prove that there are "millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take the Bible literally." You have shown (by your exchange with Munk) that you know absolutely nothing about fundamentalism.

 

You are a follower of Jesus, and this is a site for Ex-Christians. You are a troll.

 

 

well said and every true Deva!

[Munk]

Munk, I stopped reading his posts a while ago. I can recommend that tactic to you.

 

Me too. Don't feed the troll.

 

I believe that it was Charlotte-Joko-Beck in Everyday Zen that told a story about being at a Zen retreat with just such a rude bozo. Anyway the rest of the group ganged up on him and drove him out. Upon finding out that the guy had left, the master drove off to find him and brought him back. He then admonished the group for their behavior and confessed that he paid this fellow to attend so that the students would have something to practice on. Webmaster is there something we don't know going on here?

 

Yes, you're right. But I just couldn't leave it lying. I said my piece, he responded as I expected, and now I'm just going to ignore him

[Munk]

[snip]

There are millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take The Bible literally, do not believe it is the transcribed word of God, have a sophisticated understanding of "inspiration" and do not think Jesus is, was or will be a deity in any sense other than we are all or can be.

So when you bitch about Christians and there fundamentalism, you are bitching about the fundamentalism, not the Christian.

 

How can lump Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, in the same category as Benny Hinn, or your aunt Martha?

 

Cut and paste one personal judgment I have made about anyone, that wasn't really a criticism directed at an opinion expressed. (If you think criticizing opinions is personal, you do not belong on a forum of discussing and debating issues.)

 

You have shown repeatedly (or do you deny it?) that you have an overall low opinion of the intelligence of the people on this site, which is offensive. You do not discuss. You merely state your opinion as if it were a fact. You cannot prove that there are "millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take the Bible literally." You have shown (by your exchange with Munk) that you know absolutely nothing about fundamentalism.

 

You are a follower of Jesus, and this is a site for Ex-Christians. You are a troll.

 

Thank you, Deva. I totally agree. It seems he's more interested in stirring up trouble than actually discussing anything.

[Neon Genesis]

I have already, several times, explained why their issue is not with a collection of ancient writings, but with those prevailing interpretations of them that they have encountered. They can feel are martyred and insulted all they want. If it makes you feel better, pretend I insulted their mothers as well. (Although enough of you all have already done that)

And this is what makes you come across as judgmental. You saying somebody who doesn't like the bible really just doesn't like a certain sect of Christians is like saying if somebody doesn't like the Harry Potter books, they just don't like the fans even if they really hate the books. It just makes you look like you're saying that we were just hurt by the church and fake Christians and it makes you look like you're trying to convert us to "true" Christianity.

 

If you think I am being rude, substitute your name every time you read "believer", "xtian" or "church" in your own writings. (Talk about the herd mentality and safety within the herd)

 

There are millions, perhaps billions of Christians who do not take The Bible literally, do not believe it is the transcribed word of God, have a sophisticated understanding of "inspiration" and do not think Jesus is, was or will be a deity in any sense other than we are all or can be.

So when you bitch about Christians and there fundamentalism, you are bitching about the fundamentalism, not the Christian.

When did I say I wasn't? I've never made broad judgments about Christians in general at this forum or do you just have short term memory and forgot about this thread I posted? http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=25632And when I use the word "xtians" to refer to Christians in my posts, I'm usually just being flippant about the word, which is why I use xtians when I'm referring to fundies but I spell the word Christian when I'm referring to moderate believers to distinguish between the two. It's sort of like when some people use the word "Trekkie" to distinguish the diehard fans from the moderate Star Trek fans but they might not always put the disclaimer notice on their posts that they're only referring to a certain group of fans. I'm simply saying that other people might not like the bible at all just like not everybody likes reading Harry Potter. Could you at least try to be more understanding of where people are coming from instead of painting us all with broad bushes and accusing anyone who disagrees with you as a fundamentalist?

 

 

How can lump Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, in the same category as Benny Hinn, or your aunt Martha?

When did I ever say I did? What about you tossing everyone who disagrees with you as being "fundamentalists?" Don't you think that makes you just as bad?

 

Cut and paste one personal judgment I have made about anyone, that wasn't really a criticism directed at an opinion expressed. (If you think criticizing opinions is personal, you do not belong on a forum of discussing and debating issues.)

How about just now when you made a false claim about something I never said and then proceeded to tell me what I really think? The bible says you will know who Christians are by the fruits they make. What fruits have you made other than your judgmental attitude? I tend to agree with many of the points you bring up in your posts, but I just think you need to work on how you're delivering it as you act like you're only here to teach, not to discuss, and you act like you're somehow superior to everyone else here because you have the "truth" and everyone else is just ignorant.

[Naiya]

I don't want to comment on any members here...really haven't seen enough of Kcdad to think anything any which way at all, but thought I'd chime in on a point the OP made:

 

MANY Christians, especially ones I find on Christian boards, do in fact believe that if you are not worshiping the Christian God, you are worshiping Satan whether you know it or not. This idea has had a very strong history, and while the more moderate and liberal Christians have done away with it, the fundamentalists still strongly believe it.

 

I was recently on another board and we got into a big debate over whether or not Muslims worship the same God Christians do. Apparently a lot of Christians believe that Muslims don't worship the same God they do, despite the fact that Islam is an Abrahamic faith and in its own book claims to worship the same God the Jews and Christians do.

 

I believe the idea they were trying to get across was, if you do not worship Jesus, you don't worship their God. Because their God IS Jesus (A lot of fundamentalists make no distinction between the Father and Son, you must worship Jesus because Jesus is God, don't ask me why, they just do). So if you are worshiping Allah, Allah is not Jesus, and therefore is not the same God the Christians worship.

 

Ergo: you worship an entity that is not God, so that entity must either not exist or be demonic in nature.

[white_raven23]

Kcdad denies that large numbers of fundamentalist christians exist Naiya. I don't know where he gets his figures from....as Deva pointed out, it's not like he verified proof of them.

[Vigile]

I have some really trollish tendencies on other forums, but I try to keep it in check around here because I respect people on this site.

 

But I gotta say, KCDad- if your trollish behavior is intentional, then my hat's off to you. Well-played, sir. I only WISH I had such talent.

 

On the other hand, if the majority of your posts were meant to be anything akin to discussion, fruitful debate, or genuine interaction... then you're an ass.

 

I'd say in either case he's an ass.

[Kuroikaze]

How can lump Martin Luther King, Jr., for example, in the same category as Benny Hinn, or your aunt Martha?

 

I don't think anyone is saying this. I'm not anyway. However, I get the feeling you are suggesting that the "Martin Luther King Jr.'s" are the rule and the "Benny Hinn's" are rare exceptions.

 

I don't think either is the rule. Most people are neither, but unfortunately most people are kinda stupid and as such like simple answers, and Fundamentalism offers easy answers.

[Guest kcdad]

Kcdad denies that large numbers of fundamentalist christians exist Naiya. I don't know where he gets his figures from....as Deva pointed out, it's not like he verified proof of them.

 

Ok.. let's get empirical

1)http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html this data is probably a little old

2)http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor90.htm what is meant by fundamentalist varies... here are two types

"Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones…I am an evangelical. I'm not a member of the religious right and I'm not a fundamentalist ...Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America."

3) http://www.copernicusmarketing.com/about/r...n%20study.shtml what ever the figures liberalism is growing faster

There is the breakdown by region

Only in the South do fundamentalists number more than 30 % (and if you cross reference that with age and education you see most of them are older with less education... duh.. the South) By sex, women are slightly more likely to be fundamentalists.

 

Let's agree then that 1/3 of Christians in America are fundamentalists. (I think you will agree America is the center of Christian fundamentalism)

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.html total number of Christians in America 225,000,000 that leaves 75,000,000 fundamentalists, 30 million of which are in the South.

 

Is 75 million a large number? it is about 25% of out total population. (305,795,357)

The United States represents about 4.5 % of the world's population.

 

So, is that a large number? I don't know. I don't think so.

[Guest kcdad]

How about just now when you made a false claim about something I never said and then proceeded to tell me what I really think? The bible says you will know who Christians are by the fruits they make. What fruits have you made other than your judgmental attitude? I tend to agree with many of the points you bring up in your posts, but I just think you need to work on how you're delivering it as you act like you're only here to teach, not to discuss, and you act like you're somehow superior to everyone else here because you have the "truth" and everyone else is just ignorant.

 

Neon Genesis- If you think being on a forum thread is a personal and private conversation between you and I, you better think again. That is what the PMs are for. Unless I preface a remark with a direct reference to your screen name I am writing to EVERYONE. There is not time nor reason to personalize most responses ... especially when there are 10 people attacking me... when I write "you" I am meaning the general sense of "gee ain't I been mistreated" by them awful Christians... as if every Christian is the world is the same as every white person, every step father, every Democrat, every CEO, every drug addict, every employer, every everything.

 

I am not here to lead any one anywhere near any religion. I don't care about what fruits you think I may or may not be bearing. I am only pointing out that most of the anger and hatred on these forums is misdirected and therefor not helpful or healthy. You can't be angry and hate all christians when only a small percentage of them are the ones that you are upset with. And yes, you (you all) do lump Martin Luther King, Jr, Oscar Romero, Mother Theresa, Albert Schweitzer, William Boothe and many others in the same category as your fundamentalist antagonists. They are Christians too. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Paine were all Christians, too. Lincoln, Darwin, Galileo, Copernicus, Gutenberg, Watt, Whitney, Edison... all Christians. None of them were fundamentalists.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_atheists

Here is an interesting list I came across after seeing a news program about Joe Ezterhas, the Hollywood screen writer who converted to Catholicism.

His latest book, "Crossbearer: A Memoir of Faith," was published on September 2, 2008 by St. Martin's Press. The release tells the story of his spiritual conversion and his newfound devotion to God and family.

This was his first book:

http://www.writersstore.com/product.php?products_id=3169 (Devil's Guide to Hollywood)

[Guest kcdad]

I don't think either is the rule. Most people are neither, but unfortunately most people are kinda stupid and as such like simple answers, and Fundamentalism offers easy answers.

 

And you people think I think that the people on these forums have low intelligence?

 

I wouldn't even consider writing something like that.

 

I believe people do take short cuts, not because they are "stupid", but because they are not AWARE. I am trying to bring awareness to your rants about xtians and xtianity.

I know because I experienced the same initial reaction... "Throw out the baby with the bathwater!" (Kind of appropriate, eh?)

 

How is an ex-xtian's rabid anti-xtian- fundamentalism based on half truths and generalizations any different than the xtian's rabid xtian- fundamentalism based on half truths and generalizations?

 

How is this forum not another fundamentalist site... like Stormfront, or CF or CARM or any other?

[Ouroboros]

How is this forum not another fundamentalist site... like Stormfront, or CF or CARM or any other?

The difference is that this website does not have a purpose to try to find The Truth™ or lead or guide anyone to any particular worldview of belief, but it is a place for those who just recently came out of religion, specifically Christianity, to rant, release the built up pressure, argue, say what they feel and think, without having to make logical or reasonable excuses for feeling or thinking that way. This website does not have the purpose of being the philosophical truth forum, neither building the bridge between faiths forum, or lets all be buddies and try to be nice, but it is the forum for the ones who can't say what they feel in other places. They might be wrong, they might be right, but that isn't the principal idea here. The idea is to provide a soap-box where they, the members who need it, can express themselves. If you want to stop that, then unfortunately you don't fit in. We try to keep the freedom of speech here as much as we can, but the emphasis will be, if you like it or not, to allow the Ex-Christians to get the first and final word. So we're not talking about a free-for-all, neither a lets come to an agreement, but really it is let the Ex-Christians speak their mind.

[GraphicsGuy]

And you people think I think that the people on these forums have low intelligence?

 

You've implied such thoughts numerous times. Your choice of wording makes it seem so.

 

I believe people do take short cuts, not because they are "stupid", but because they are not AWARE. I am trying to bring awareness to your rants about xtians and xtianity.

I know because I experienced the same initial reaction... "Throw out the baby with the bathwater!" (Kind of appropriate, eh?)

 

Awareness of what? That there is philosophical value in the Bible and Xian teaching? No shit, we know that. Most of us just don't fucking care. Xianity was bathing a dead baby...out it goes...

 

We're not here to discuss philosophy (generally). Been there, done that, most of us are sick of it. We want to discuss LIFE. What affects us now. How we feel, what we do, where we're going from here.

 

Fuck Xianity. Don't want it. Don't need it. Want nothing to do with it.

 

That said, I have friends that believe in "God". My parents are Xians. My counselor is a Xian. I validate their feelings and they understand my position and why I'm there. It's not as if I just attack everything around me that has anything to do with Xianity.