The People of Ex-C Vs God

[Merlinfmct87]

*sigh*

 

I just did something that was very, very stupid.

 

I was browsing through some websites earlier and came across some... very disturbing sites about the old bugaboos: the Inquisition, crusades, 'burning times,' etc. Well, foolish me read a little too much and right now I'm feeling very shaky.

 

I've tried to put it behind me... tried to to cover it up with some soft music and calm thoughts. Didn't get real far. All I had to do was look around at my very messy desk... my journal I've neglected lately, the book on Language, the Samurai Chess... the book on the finer points of critical thinking and reason my mum got me last week... AP World History study guide...

 

I don't think I have it in me to just let this thing rest.

 

So, I dive back in. Grab the NIN, crank up the volume and thank goodness for headphones and eDonkey... then go hunting for the truth. There's something in the bloodshed of the Crusades and the Inquisition that is a little telling... and I happily find that this thought is not an original one.

 

WHY SHOULD WE PLACE CHRIST AT THE TOP AND SUMMIT OF THE HUMAN RACE?

 

Was he kinder, more forgiving, more self-sacrificing than Buddha? Was he wiser, did he meet death with more perfect calmness, than Socrates? Was he more patient, more charitable, than Epictetus? Was he a greater philosopher, a deeper thinker, than Epicurus? In what respect was he the superior of Zoroaster? Was he gentler than Lao-tsze, more universal than Confucius? Were his ideas of human rights and duties superior to those of Zeno? Did he express grander truths than Cicero? Was his mind subtler than Spinoza's? Was his brain equal to Kepler's or Newton's? Was he grander in death -- a sublimer martyr than Bruno? Was he in intelligence, in the force and beauty of expression, in breadth and scope of thought, in wealth of illustration, in aptness of comparison, in knowledge of the human brain and heart, of all passions, hopes and fears, the equal of Shakespeare, the greatest of the human race?

 

If Christ was in fact God, he knew all the future. Before him like a panorama moved the history yet to be. He knew how his words would be interpreted. He knew what crimes, what horrors, what infamies, would be committed in his name. He knew that the hungry flames of persecution would climb around the limbs of countless martyrs. He knew that; thousands and thousands of brave men and women would languish in dungeons in darkness, filled with pain. He knew that his church would invent and use instruments of torture; that his followers would appeal to whip and fagot, to chain and rack. He saw the horizon of the future lurid with the flames of the auto da fe. He knew what creeds would spring like poisonous fungi from every text. He saw the ignorant sects waging war against each other. He saw thousands of men, under the orders of priests, building prisons for their fellow-men. He saw thousands of scaffolds dripping with the best and bravest blood. He saw his followers using the instruments of pain. He heard the groans -- saw the faces white with agony. He heard the shrieks and sobs and cries of all the moaning, martyred multitudes. He knew that commentaries would be written on his words with swords, to be read by the light of fagots. He knew that the Inquisition would be born of the teachings attributed to him.

 

He saw the interpolations and falsehoods that hypocrisy would write and tell. He saw all wars that would he waged, and he knew that above these fields of death, these dungeons, these rackings, these burnings, these executions, for a thousand years would float the dripping banner of the cross.

 

He knew that hypocrisy would be robed and crowned -- that cruelty and credulity would rule the world; knew that liberty would perish from the earth; knew that popes and kings in his name would enslave the souls and bodies of men; knew that they would persecute and destroy the discoverers, thinkers and inventors; knew that his church would extinguish reason's holy light and leave the world without a star.

 

He saw his disciples extinguishing the eyes of men, flaying them alive, cutting out their tongues, searching for all the nerves of pain.

 

He knew that in his name his followers would trade in human flesh; that cradles would be robbed and women's breasts unbabed for gold.

 

And yet he died with voiceless lips.

 

Why did he fail to speak? Why did he not tell his disciples, and through them the world: "You shall not burn, imprison and torture in my name. You shall not persecute your fellow-men."

 

Why did he not plainly say: "I am the Son of God," or, "I am God"? Why did he not explain the Trinity? Why did he not tell the mode of baptism that was pleasing to him? Why did he not write a creed? Why did he not break the chains of slaves? Why did he not say that the Old Testament was or was not the inspired word of God? Why did he not write the New Testament himself? Why did he leave his words to ignorance, hypocrisy and chance? Why did he not say something positive, definite and satisfactory about another world? Why did he not turn the tear-stained hope of heaven into the glad knowledge of another life? Why did he not tell us something of the rights of man, of the liberty of hand and brain?

 

Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

 

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.

 

(formatting mine)

 

You really have to love Robert Ingersoll. That, by the way, for those of you who aren't aware of him, is just one section in an entire article - Click here. It takes the Bible apart piece by piece... good, enlightening reading for all concerned.

 

Getting back on track... that's obviously an argument for atheism. How can a loving God not correct the obvious and fatal errors in the Bible? How could he send the book containing his philosophy - "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" with flaws and contradictions that would allow such horrors? If that was the case, he would be responsable for the torture, murder, rape, and destruction of knowledge and learning that resulted from the crusades and inquisition...

 

Imagine that! Our Lord God being guilty of crimes against humanity. Obviously he can't exist... I mean, how can a just, loving God have that crime on his shoulders? We thought Atlas had a heavy burden!

 

But let's give the Christians what they want, here.

 

Let's assume that BibleGod exists as we all know him. He saw what would happen, how people would use his words and, for whatever reason decided he couldn't be bothered with correcting*ahem* clarifying his words.

 

That would mean he was, at the very least, guilty of depraved indifference - and that's the nice interpretation!

 

Why, do you ask?

 

Because he saw what would be done in his name, in his honour, FROM HIS WORDS AND GUIDANCE(by 'guidance' I mean the idea that the bible was divinely inspired... if God didn't hold the pen Himself, he dictated, or so the idea goes) and did nothing to stop it. He didn't clarify. He didn't write a commandment against it. He didn't specifically condemn it, which is what any sane person would have done.

 

OK, fine, so God's a genocidal maniac. But the true evil lies deeper...

 

Christians are often held to task for the crimes of the past - those being the Inquisition and the like - to which the common replies range from "Well, that was the Protestants, you see..." to "They were mistaken and I hope they begged God for forgiveness" to "Obviously they were misguided by Satan, it's hardly fair to blame Good Christians for the actions of the Lord of Darkness, is it?"

 

They are trying to separate the fruits of the Bible from the Bible itself...

 

Now, ordinarily, you can excuse someone for reckless actions without foresight. A programmer forgets a semicolon and causes a hard drive failure down the line that managed to slip past Quality Assurance... someone forgets to lock the gate and that results in a theft of a car. The person who dropped the semicolon and didn't lock the gate was negligent, not malicious. We're all human, after all, we have all done stupid things that resulted in harm. We can't go back and change it, we can't write a post-it dated "Three hours ago!," send ourselves a note, and fix the problem. We're stuck with our mistakes. Our skill and strength lies in rising above them and learning from them.

 

But...

 

We can't excuse God with mortal excuses. For one thing, he's perfect - literally, figuratively, and metaphorically, he makes no mistakes. He has no flaws. No action of his happens without full, total, and(you guessed it) perfect knowledge of what will happen as a result. Even Satan can't fool or beguile him, much less act without his authority. He is truly the Lord of this existence. Nothing happens without his knowledge and active consent.

 

"Fine, we know that, what's your point?"

 

My point is... The Bible was written by GOD. Every letter, every colon, every single last detail was planned and crafted by Him with full, total, and perfect knowledge of what it would do.

 

In other words, the Bible, with all of it's hateful destructive writings, was shipped complete with bugs and trap doors. God WANTED those things in there... so that they would cause the destruction they did.

 

In short: You cannot say that 'You can't blame God for the actions of a mere man. He is perfect, we are not."

 

Yes, well, perfection, like infinity itself, has no limit. It doesn't mean he's immune from prosecution, it means he's claiming he is in no way vulnerable to it.

 

In other words, if you were to hold him on trial, there would be NO POSSIBLE CASE AGAINST HIM.

 

You also can't use the excuse of Free Will, either. That excuses the actions of men independent of his guidance. If man acted without his guidance, he is not responsable for it. Period. Nothing he would allow do to influence him, by the rules of engagement he set upon himself. He could always appear in front of him and say "Yo! It's me, God!" but, for some reason, he decides not to.

 

But...

 

The Bible is the living word of God. It's his sole direct action on this world... and therefore the one we can hold him accountable for.

 

He crafted it himself. He knew exactly how it would effect the people it touched, and acted - not despite that knowledge, but in view of it.

 

"Suffer not a witch to live."

 

"I come not to bring peace, but the sword"

 

On...

 

and on...

 

and on.

 

He knew how these lines and more could be twisted and perverted from their presumably original(and very, very hidden...) motive to spread love and compassion, and yet did nothing to clarify(or better yet, remove) them.

 

Why, God? Why?

 

Merlin

[dogmatically_challenged]

Damn Wizard. Outstanding post! Thank you! This all goes in my files!

[a midnight star]

without realizing it, you stated why I hate him. More for personal reasons and things that he allowed than the "burning times" etc.... The sentiment is the same.

[trashy]

without realizing it, you stated why I hate him. More for personal reasons and things that he allowed than the "burning times" etc.... The sentiment is the same.

I would too, but then I don't believe that God or Jesus ever existed.......

[a midnight star]

I am still not sure whether or not he existed. But I do know that I hate him with all of my being. I figure that even if he didn't exist I still have my outlet. Maybe when I am not so raw, I won't need it, but until then..... I will continue to hate him real or not.

[Merlinfmct87]

D_C, Midnight Star, Thankful trashy... thank you so much. I was really taken aback at the utter brutality I saw... I'm glad I was able to strike a chord with you.

 

I'm very tired right now, so I'll head off to bed and post an intelligent(hopefully ) reply tomorrow.

 

To Midnight Star/Trashy: See, that's the thing. I don't hate 'God.' I don't hate whatever created this universe/reality we live in at all. Why would I? No, I'm royally pissed off at Christianity for attatching something so vile to something which it truly has no knowledge of. Any divine force that exists and the God of the Bible are vastly different things...

 

Merlin

[a midnight star]

I feel betrayed by the one "person" who claimed that he loved me and would take up for me, and will revenge me.

[Checkmate]

Wonderful post, Merlin. I LOVE Robert Ingersoll's works.

 

And sorry to say, but THIS is precisely why Ingersoll is one of my favorite critics of Xianity. His insights and truths are crystal clear and disturbing. You cannot help but be even further pissed off when Ingersoll writes about religion/Xianity. Because what you dimly suspected before, he now makes a painful reality, and you begin grinding your teeth in anger and agreement.

 

I wish there were some way to force Xians to READ Ingersoll. Maybe then they would comprehend our disgust with Xianity and religion.

 

But somehow, I doubt it.

[Reach]

Any divine force that exists and the God of the Bible are vastly different things...

And I would have to ask of this "divine force" if he existed, Why haven't you taken care of this God of the Bible?

[Cerise]

I think one of the reasons why the Greek Gods and the Egyptian Gods, maybe every culture with multiple divine beings to worship, did not push the burden of being "omnibenevolent" or even "omnipotent" on their gods and goddesses is this basic problem of evil.

 

If there are going to be gods, then the state of this present world tells us that they must either be bigger representations of humans; gods who feel lust and jealousy and anger and vanity, gods who are sometimes petty and sometimes negligent, gods who are concerned more with themselves then the little humans they sometimes interfere with; or they must be absent, removed gods who no longer have anything to do with the small planet earth and its inhabitents.

 

The ways of this world could make sense with a score of petty, waring gods. The ways of the world could make sense with an absent, faceless god. But an all-loving, all-powerful father watching carefully over his children? In this world? With these sad occurances?

 

Not possible.

[Dio]

Merlin, that was just ... excellent.

 

Your inquiry sounds a bit like Job, trying to reconcile what he understood about God, with what he actually witnessed in the world around him. His buddies give him the pat religious answers, but they do not satisfy. Then God Himself appears. Unfortunately, He too simply has pat religious BS answers that satisfy not. The end of Job is a major cop out. 'God is God; how dare you question?'. Then all of Job's fortunes are restored and they live happily ever after. Unfortunately, this is a fairy tale and real life seldom (never?) serves up such a tidy result.

 

Sorry to ramble, but it was Job and it was the questions which you raise here which led to deconversion for me. Thanks for putting it out there so well.

[Cerise]

The things is, who more then us has a right to question god? Surely someone's children have more right to question their father then a stranger? Isn't that part of a father's job? To answer questions?

 

I know my dad had a couple of headaches dealing with my "why is that man so short?" and "what makes the little bubbles in Aero chocolate bars?" questions. Why should god get out of it just because he has numerous children? An all-powerful being could easily find both the strength, time, and resources to answers all questions offered to him.

[Merlinfmct87]

And I would have to ask of this "divine force" if he existed, Why haven't you taken care of this God of the Bible?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No clue, Reach. No clue. Goodness knows I would if I could. Shit, isn't that what I'm trying to do here?

 

I think one of the reasons why the Greek Gods and the Egyptian Gods, maybe every culture with multiple divine beings to worship, did not push the burden of being "omnibenevolent" or even "omnipotent" on their gods and goddesses is this basic problem of evil.

 

If there are going to be gods, then the state of this present world tells us that they must either be bigger representations of humans; gods who feel lust and jealousy and anger and vanity, gods who are sometimes petty and sometimes negligent, gods who are concerned more with themselves then the little humans they sometimes interfere with; or they must be absent, removed gods who no longer have anything to do with the small planet earth and its inhabitents.

 

The ways of this world could make sense with a score of petty, waring gods.  The ways of the world could make sense with an absent, faceless god.  But an all-loving, all-powerful father watching carefully over his children?  In this world?  With these sad occurances?

 

Not possible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Another thought I came across was the idea that humanity wasn't the reason for creation... that a greater purpose was being served. Pain, hurt, evil, it's all needed notes in the whole musical score as it were.

 

Merlin, that was just ... excellent.

 

Thanks... I can't take all the credit though... the websites mum found really(to make a grizzly pun) put a fire under me... plus she has been writing her book for the past year, so that has given me a lot of insights in and of itself...

 

A lot of the credit goes to her. The thoughts may have been mine, but she has been getting me to think about it... chew on it... you get the idea. If she wasn't around, well, I wouldn't be at Ex-C to begin with.

 

Your inquiry sounds a bit like Job, trying to reconcile what he understood about God, with what he actually witnessed in the world around him.  His buddies give him the pat religious answers, but they do not satisfy.  Then God Himself appears.  Unfortunately, He too simply has pat religious BS answers that satisfy not.  The end of Job is a major cop out.  'God is God; how dare you question?'.  Then all of Job's fortunes are restored and they live happily ever after.  Unfortunately, this is a fairy tale and real life seldom (never?) serves up such a tidy result.

 

Sorry to ramble, but it was Job and it was the questions which you raise here which led to deconversion for me.  Thanks for putting it out there so well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're welcome... it was my pleasure. I'm thrilled you could relate.

 

And from that one tiny little scripture, comes the rally cry of Christianity... "Who are you to question god?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who are they NOT to? He's perfect... he has nothing to fear from questions...

 

Merlin

[♦ ficino ♦]

Omigod (just a figure of speech!), Merlin. I wish I were an AP history grader so I could get a shot at grading your AP essays! Ingersoll is pretty cool, too. You've piqued my interest in reading him. I just can't see my family thinking he's cool, unfortunately.

 

Didn't some Jews put G-D on trial after or during the Holocaust? Course if we put God on trial, we sort of imply we think he exists. I sure as hell join you in putting the tradition on trial.

 

I'm waiting for some Christian to answer you with blab from the bible. Or else to dress up TAG as some sort of answer. Or to say we cannot comprehend God because his ways are beyond our ways etc. etc. etc.

 

I think one of the reasons why the Greek Gods and the Egyptian Gods, maybe every culture with multiple divine beings to worship, did not push the burden of being "omnibenevolent" or even "omnipotent" on their gods and goddesses is this basic problem of evil... The ways of this world could make sense with a score of petty, waring gods. The ways of the world could make sense with an absent, faceless god. But an all-loving, all-powerful father watching carefully over his children? In this world? With these sad occurances?

I agree, Cerise. Polytheism makes more sense to me, if there have to be some divine something at all. Or else an amoral creator forcefield of some kind.

[Merlinfmct87]

Omigod (just a figure of speech!), Merlin.  I wish I were an AP history grader so I could get a shot at grading your AP essays!  Ingersoll is pretty cool, too.  You've piqued my interest in reading him.  I just can't see my family thinking he's cool, unfortunately.

 

Look at my first post - Infidels.org has his whole catalogue on file. Online. In other words, if you can read Ex-C, you ran read Ingersoll.

 

Didn't some Jews put G-D on trial after or during the Holocaust?  Course if we put God on trial, we sort of imply we think he exists.  I sure as hell join you in putting the tradition on trial. 

 

Wel, that's the thing ficino... if he does exist, if we give all the assumptions the christians ask us to, the verdict only gets worse.

 

I'm waiting for some Christian to answer you with blab from the bible.  Or else to dress up TAG as some sort of answer.  Or to say we cannot comprehend God because his ways are beyond our ways etc. etc. etc.

 

Yes, I'm anxiously awaiting to hear the reason God is not able to see the concequences of his own actions...

 

I think one of the reasons why the Greek Gods and the Egyptian Gods, maybe every culture with multiple divine beings to worship, did not push the burden of being "omnibenevolent" or even "omnipotent" on their gods and goddesses is this basic problem of evil... The ways of this world could make sense with a score of petty, waring gods. The ways of the world could make sense with an absent, faceless god. But an all-loving, all-powerful father watching carefully over his children? In this world? With these sad occurances?

I agree, Cerise. Polytheism makes more sense to me, if there have to be some divine something at all. Or else an amoral creator forcefield of some kind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Merlin

[♦ ficino ♦]

Yes, I'm anxiously awaiting to hear the reason God is not able to see the concequences of his own actions...

 

 

 

"And God saw the consequences of His actions and saw that they were good. And Satan asked, 'good for whom, God?' And that's when all the trouble started."

[dogmatically_challenged]

The wise Wizard said "Yes, I'm anxiously awaiting to hear the reason God is not able to see the concequences of his own actions..."

 

If god were actually real then the verdict does indeed only get worse.

 

Silly xers.

[Merlinfmct87]

"And God saw the consequences of His actions and saw that they were good.  And Satan asked, 'good for whom, God?'  And that's when all the trouble started."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

 

Merlin