wolfwing Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Heh my mom, and sister are semi fundemental, not huge or overly bad in many ways, but still hold to stuff like no evolution *even to the point of dogs didn't come from wolves, though that may just be lack of knowing the evidence even creationist don't dispute*. But my sister has three kids now, and would love to teach them some of the things I know, but worried that they get too angry if I try to teach them too much about evolution or such. When I do find things that might be considered evolutionary, I usually find myself adding things like, "The video does explain how whales evolved from wolf like creatures, but the animals the show are real, just how you interpet them might be different.." even though I don't agree as a way to balance. But what I would like and hope to do is show my mom why the bible is wrong, and or at least why evolution is true, but seems to be a upward struggle. My mom is a bit strange at times. She holds to many of the more strictor beliefs, like gay/athiest agenda a bit, though not too vocal. When I asked her if my town had anything for Darwin day she called it a " athiestic agenda". But at the same time, she doesn't like the direction the church and Christianity in my town and world is going, it's too occultish she says, with all this stuff with the charismatic movement and stuff that is closer to some of the 60 hippy cults then truen Christianity *She did show me a video that shows some of this, though I'm not convinced how widespread it is* but...just unsure how to talk to her about it. I've tried pointing out how the cannon was disputed right up till around 700 CE or so, with revelations going in and out of it alot, but she said the usual stuff, "The bible's cannon was accepted since early times of Christianity and was never reallly in dispute, that the gnostic and other books were more fringe then anything else. and then comes up with Isreal being a nation and things like that to prove that the bible is true. Any tips/suggestions or questions? I'm sure I missed some stuff but put down what I could remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Family are often more bitter over family members deconverting than your church members. They may see it as a personal failure in themselves. You could answer their questions with your own questions, if they ask you about God, ask them what God looks like so you will know what to look for. They will say he is invisible. You then ask them if they believe in invisible unicorns? They will say 'no'. Ask them how they can believe in an invisible God? Ask in what year did people quit speaking with snakes? Ask them where the unicorns, satyrs, and cockatrices are in the old translations from the Hebrew text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 The only "tip" I have is to not do it. State your opinion and leave it at that. Debating is Xians is useless unless you are getting some cathartic enjoyment from it. If it's stressing you out, don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Yeah, that way madness lies. If people ask me questions I do the best to answer, I don't go looking for these pointless debates though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfwing Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 Yeah, that way madness lies. If people ask me questions I do the best to answer, I don't go looking for these pointless debates though. Heh I guess...I just worry about my sisters kids, and what they will grow up to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 See if you can talk to the kids directly and ask leading questions, like "Why did God think it was ok to kill all the kids in the world in Noah's flood?" "Why did God kill all those Egyptian kids?" "What kind of daddy would burn his children for disobeying him? God doesnt sound very good to me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I don't think it's your job to teach her kids anything. It's up to them when they're older to find their own way in life. Yeah, it sucks to see them being immersed in the cult teachings, but you're not the one raising them. Plus, your sister won't appreciate it and you could end up alienating yourself from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfwing Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 I don't think it's your job to teach her kids anything. It's up to them when they're older to find their own way in life. Yeah, it sucks to see them being immersed in the cult teachings, but you're not the one raising them. Plus, your sister won't appreciate it and you could end up alienating yourself from them. heh why I've been careful about it, and appealing to ways they can or might accept, the second who's 2 right now is into a real dinosaur phase, and yes it's early, but already they are taking them to sunday school and such, It's not so much I want them not to learn the Christian stuff, but with how cool real science and stuff is, hate to not be able to show them the real wonders of the world. Heh to me discovering what is really out there is more exciting then reading some dusty contradictory 1400-2500 year old books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKR Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Heh my mom, and sister are semi fundemental, not huge or overly bad in many ways, but still hold to stuff like no evolution *even to the point of dogs didn't come from wolves, though that may just be lack of knowing the evidence even creationist don't dispute*. But my sister has three kids now, and would love to teach them some of the things I know, but worried that they get too angry if I try to teach them too much about evolution or such. When I do find things that might be considered evolutionary, I usually find myself adding things like, "The video does explain how whales evolved from wolf like creatures, but the animals the show are real, just how you interpet them might be different.." even though I don't agree as a way to balance. But what I would like and hope to do is show my mom why the bible is wrong, and or at least why evolution is true, but seems to be a upward struggle. My mom is a bit strange at times. She holds to many of the more strictor beliefs, like gay/athiest agenda a bit, though not too vocal. When I asked her if my town had anything for Darwin day she called it a " athiestic agenda". But at the same time, she doesn't like the direction the church and Christianity in my town and world is going, it's too occultish she says, with all this stuff with the charismatic movement and stuff that is closer to some of the 60 hippy cults then truen Christianity *She did show me a video that shows some of this, though I'm not convinced how widespread it is* but...just unsure how to talk to her about it. I've tried pointing out how the cannon was disputed right up till around 700 CE or so, with revelations going in and out of it alot, but she said the usual stuff, "The bible's cannon was accepted since early times of Christianity and was never reallly in dispute, that the gnostic and other books were more fringe then anything else. and then comes up with Isreal being a nation and things like that to prove that the bible is true. Any tips/suggestions or questions? I'm sure I missed some stuff but put down what I could remember. Yeah, here's a tip. Don't bother. Coming from a guy who has a fundy family, you have about a .00001% chance of convincing them of anything. They are willfully ignorant, so trying to use logic on them is worthless. There's really nothing you can do to convince people who simply don't even want to be educated about reality. I know how you feel concerning your sister's kids. My sis has 4, and they are going to be as brainwashed into the fundy mentality as she is, and I'm sorry, but you're probably not going to stop it. If you push it, your sister will probably just remove you from their lives. Right now, maybe stay close to them, but don't push your views until they're older. Once they're older, let them know you're their for them if they have questions they don't feel comfortable asking Christians. I wouldn't hide my atheism from them, but if you start dogging their religion, your sis isn't going to have any of it. Unfortunately, once they're old enough to talk to, they're also old enough to be deeply brainwashed, but I don't see how you really have a choice in the manner. I see from your last post that you've been careful about it, and I think as long as you nonchalantly give them real facts when it's relevant to the conversation without aggressively telling them how screwed up their religion is, you might put little seeds of doubt in their head that will grow undetected by their mother, but just watch yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I know exactly how you feel. Except in my situation it is my daughter that I worry about. My ex wife is really active in her church and my daughter went to a xian preschool and is going to church with her mom. I have to challenge my daughter to think without being overtly critical of xianity since I'm still in the closet. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 30, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted March 30, 2009 I think the best you can hope for is mutual respect and an agreement to disagree. You're not going to change their minds, but you can, must, insist that they respect your right to your own beliefs, even if they differ from theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Don't Do It!!! 1 - You are more likely to alienate your family. For some folks maybe that doesn't mean much, but I'd like to think in most cases (instead of least), family is the one human element in the world that can be relied on. 2 - Did anyone deconvert YOU? I bet they didn't. I bet you came to this point the same way most of us did. Introspection, unanswered questions, and a personal quest for factual evidence and reality. Don't preach at your family! They get that enough at church. Leave conversion behaviors to the religious. That doesn't mean don't answer questions. Answer them. But resist elaborating your way into an impromptu sermon. Make your references available...but never actually hand them to anyone. Think coffee table books. Consider the urge to deconvert others a leftover of your religious life. No one is going to Hell if you don't deconvert them. Living a good life and answering the occasional question is example enough for the young members of your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Florduh's siggie says it all: If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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