Why do we go to Hell?

[Guest Son of Belial]

Okay, this sort of stems from the Free Will article. I've been thinking about this for a few days, and I'd really like a Christian to try to explain it.

 

I've asked this before, and this is how the conversation usually goes. If you can explain it any better than people before me have, try it.

 

---Why does God send people to Hell?

 

Because they have to be punished.

 

---Isn't just killing them enough?

 

No. They have to suffer. (I swear to fuck I got this answer before.)

 

---Okay... well, if God wants to punish people, isn't there some way other than burning them? A time out or something? I mean, why eternal torment?

 

Because we can't argue with His will. He died for us, and we have a chance to be saved.

 

---Yeah, but why can't he just, like, have us suffer a little bit and then let us go?

 

Because you can't be forgiven of sins after you die.

 

---Why not?

 

Because the Bible says so.

 

---I know, I mean, why can't he forgive us after we die?

 

Because He can't.

 

---But why?

 

Because He already said you have to be forgiven when you're alive.

 

---So why didn't he just make up a different rule? Why did he decide he couldn't forgive us after we die? He doesn't have the power to stop us from going to Hell?

 

He has the power, you have to believe in Jesus.

 

---No, I mean, you said that he doesn't want us to go to Hell. But we do anyway. If we go, it must mean he wants it, right?

 

No. He created Hell for Satan.

 

---If he created Hell for Satan then why do WE go there?

 

Because he has to have a place to send the sinners.

 

---So why doesn't he just destroy them?

 

Because God loves people so much that he won't destroy a soul.

 

---Eternal torment is better than being destroyed?

 

(The Christian always thinks for a moment here, fumbles, and says something like "Yes," or "I guess," or "He knows better than I do.")

 

---I don't understand how you say that he doesn't want us to go to Hell. He sends us there.

 

No, he created Hell, but you choose to go there.

 

---But he allows it, so he must not have a problem with it or he'd stop it.

 

He can't stop it though.

 

---Are you saying that's something that God can't do? He's powerless?

 

Well, see Satan wants us there.

 

---So God lets Satan take us to Hell?

 

Yes.

 

---Then God wants us to go to Hell.

 

No!

 

---Either God wants us to go to Hell and lets Satan take us there by his own express permission, or Satan takes us without God's permission meaning Satan is more powerful than God. Which is it?

 

 

 

At this point in the conversation(which I've had a half dozen times) the Christian always changes the subject. I've never gotten past this point. I still can't get an answer as to why God sends us someplace he doesn't want us to go. If he doesn't want us to go somewhere, and he's all powerful, then we can't go there. If we do go there, then he wants us to. How hard is this to fucking comprehend?

[John]

I too have never received an answer for justification of eternal torture (of course, there is none). The environment and genetics shape someone’s personality (no one has control over this). My point is that these people were destined to fail (there are no/few practitioners of the Christian faith in numerous countries). Besides, the Bible is in the language of 90% (why aren’t Christians using the gift of tongues?) of the world’s population (seven billion is the world’s population). Also, more than 2.5 billion copies of the Bible have been sold since 1815 (alas, not enough).

[Guest kychristian]

Ok, best way I can see to go about this is to go through and replace previous answers you have gotten with what I am saying.

 

 

---Why does God send people to Hell?

 

God created earth. It was a paradise. Then he put man in it. We could have lived forever in paradise, but we decided to listen to Satan. Every sin has to have a payment. Non-Christians are sent to Hell because their sins have not been paid for.

 

---Isn't just killing them enough?

 

If a soul were to stop existing, that's not punishment, because there is no reflection, no remorse. God requires a greater payment for sin that to stop existing.

 

---Okay... well, if God wants to punish people, isn't there some way other than burning them? A time out or something? I mean, why eternal torment?

 

Hey, we could have always lived in eternal paradise, but we messed that up with the first two people. A time out isn't near the payment needed for sin. Someone who is covered in sin can't be allowed into Heaven because then Heaven would no longer be perfect.

 

---Yeah, but why can't he just, like, have us suffer a little bit and then let us go?

 

Again that's not enough payment.

 

---Why not?

 

Because we were created to glorify God. We only glorify him by living in his will and giving him praise/glory. We turn from God and he makes us pay for it.

 

---I know, I mean, why can't he forgive us after we die?

 

Because He is a just God. If he didn't require a payment then all the laws, all his commands would become null because you could just be forgiven when you die, it wouldn't matter what you did. God requires payment for all sin.

 

---So why didn't he just make up a different rule? Why did he decide he couldn't forgive us after we die? He doesn't have the power to stop us from going to Hell?

 

He has the power, you have to believe in Jesus.

 

---No, I mean, you said that he doesn't want us to go to Hell. But we do anyway. If we go, it must mean he wants it, right?

 

No. Hell was created as a punishment for Satan after he rebelled in Heaven. Satan tries to drag us down with him. He hates humans because we were given a second chance through Jesus. There is no second chance for fallen angels.

 

---If he created Hell for Satan then why do WE go there?

 

We go there because we choose to follow Satan's temptations instead of God's command. That's our punishment.

 

--So why doesn't he just destroy them?

 

Didn't you already ask that earlier on?

 

---Eternal torment is better than being destroyed?

 

Eternal torment is worse for the soul because it lives on and on in eternal seperation from God, in everlasting torment and remorse for all done wrong in their life.

 

---I don't understand how you say that he doesn't want us to go to Hell. He sends us there.

 

Ok, Hell was created as a punishment for sin. He doesn't want us to go to Hell. He sent his only son to die on the cross to pay for our sins so we could have the choice to believe and not go there.

 

---But he allows it, so he must not have a problem with it or he'd stop it.

 

I'm leaving all questions on here but I think I kinda just answered it. He doesn't want you, his creation to go to Hell. That's why he sent his son. He gave you the redemption avenue. You just have to take it.

 

---Are you saying that's something that God can't do? He's powerless?

 

Ok, I dont think this question really applies to what I said, but I will say something here anyway. You go to Hell because he is a just God and requires punishment for all sin. If he were to forgive without a punishment, he would no longer be a just God, going against everything he is.

 

---So God lets Satan take us to Hell?

 

Yes, if we choose to let Satan lead us there.

 

---Then God wants us to go to Hell.

 

No!

 

---Either God wants us to go to Hell and lets Satan take us there by his own express permission, or Satan takes us without God's permission meaning Satan is more powerful than God. Which is it?

 

I wonder why no one will answer this one. Neither of the choices you give is right. God created us to walk with him. We sinned and we were cast from paradise, doomed to be seperated from him forever. We chose to listen to Satan. God is vengeful and requires payment for the sins we commit. So, we were condemned to die and go to Hell. But God loved us so much that he wanted to give us another chance, a way to join him in Heaven, but knew that we could never be good enough to enter a perfect place. We'd only make it unclean, imperfect. So he sent his son to die on the cross in our places. His son went into Hell and rose again. He conquered death. He paid the price for every sin that had been and ever would be committed. He was sent to save us from Hell. But there was a requirement to receive that forgiveness. We have to believe. We have to believe in the one true son of God. We have to believe he was sent here for the sole purpose of dying on that cross and conquering death to pay for our sins. We have to believe that he is the only way to Heaven.

 

So, in short, God requires payment for sins. Hell is the payment that is required. Satan tries to drag us into Hell by causing us to sin. God sent his son to be the payment for our sins if we will choose to believe in him.

[crazy-tiger]

But the all-knowing God would have known what was going to happen. Since he still went right ahead KNOWING that this would happen, he created people simply to throw them into hell knowing that they wouldn't have the free will needed to make any kind of choice.

 

 

So, he KNEW we would listen to the snake... (which isn't Satan, despite what you've been told) and went ahead with creating us.

He KNEW we would sin, but he went ahead with creating us.

He KNEW that the vast majority would not believe in him, nor would they ask forgiveness of him, but he went ahead and created us anyway.

He KNEW that he'd have to condemn the vast majority of us to eternal damnation, KNEW that there was no way that we could avoid it, yet he STILL created us.

 

Even better, for us to be able to sin, God would have had to create us with a sin "nature"

 

 

And you seem to think God is just? Punishing us for something we had no choice but to do, (future is set or God is NOT all-knowing) punishing us for following our nature, punishing us for being exactly how he created us.

 

Sorry, but if that is the kind of being God is, hell is going to be the easy option... (and a damn sight safer too)

[John]

Basically you’re saying God is a sadist since you provided absolutely no reasonable justification for the eternal punishment.

 

God created earth. It was a paradise. Then he put man in it. We could have lived forever in paradise, but we decided to listen to Satan. Every sin has to have a payment. Non-Christians are sent to Hell because their sins have not been paid for.

 

Who is we? Oh, that’s right, you’re talking about Adam and Eve. So, you do believe others should be punished for some other person’s actions. Is that right? Besides, they only ate an apple (they didn’t have the knowledge of right and wrong). Take note this doesn’t make any sense.

 

He could have created us perfect in Heaven (as shown later in the mythical book).

 

If a soul were to stop existing, that's not punishment, because there is no reflection, no remorse. God requires a greater payment for sin that to stop existing.

 

There doesn’t have to be punishment since He deliberately created them to fail (genetics and the environment shapes someone’s personality). If punishment is required, then that would mean God is a sadist. Besides, eternal torture is NOT equivalent to any action made by anyone. The punishment has to FIT the crime or act.

 

Hey, we could have always lived in eternal paradise, but we messed that up with the first two people. A time out isn't near the payment needed for sin. Someone who is covered in sin can't be allowed into Heaven because then Heaven would no longer be perfect.

 

So, you do believe others should be punished for the actions of someone else. That’s bizarre! Besides, why didn’t God create us perfect as shown later in the book.

 

Again that's not enough payment.

 

Finite acts do not equal infinite torture.

 

Because we were created to glorify God. We only glorify him by living in his will and giving him praise/glory. We turn from God and he makes us pay for it.

 

Huh, where is your God? I haven’t seen Him. Did you know you rejected Allah!

 

Because He is a just God. If he didn't require a payment then all the laws, all his commands would become null because you could just be forgiven when you die, it wouldn't matter what you did. God requires payment for all sin.

 

It doesn’t matter what anyone does since someone can ask for forgiveness.

 

He has the power, you have to believe in Jesus.

 

Notice the change:

 

He has the power, you have to believe in Allah.

 

No. Hell was created as a punishment for Satan after he rebelled in Heaven. Satan tries to drag us down with him. He hates humans because we were given a second chance through Jesus. There is no second chance for fallen angels.

 

How does Satan try to drag us down with him i.e. I haven’t seen him!

 

We go there because we choose to follow Satan's temptations instead of God's command. That's our punishment.

 

Satan tempts us, huh?

 

Eternal torment is worse for the soul because it lives on and on in eternal seperation from God, in everlasting torment and remorse for all done wrong in their life.

 

He obviously derives pleasure from this.

 

Ok, Hell was created as a punishment for sin. He doesn't want us to go to Hell. He sent his only son to die on the cross to pay for our sins so we could have the choice to believe and not go there.

 

“In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever.

 

He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity.

 

Now that is AMAZING GRACE!”

 

LMAO!

 

Yes, He does want us to go to Hell since He could simply show Himself. No, He didn’t send His son since it is Him! LMAO! Besides, why did He have to sacrifice Himself (it wasn’t a sacrifice since He is still there). This is a stem from pagan beliefs.

 

I wonder why no one will answer this one. Neither of the choices you give is right. God created us to walk with him. We sinned and we were cast from paradise, doomed to be seperated from him forever. We chose to listen to Satan. God is vengeful and requires payment for the sins we commit. So, we were condemned to die and go to Hell. But God loved us so much that he wanted to give us another chance, a way to join him in Heaven, but knew that we could never be good enough to enter a perfect place. We'd only make it unclean, imperfect. So he sent his son to die on the cross in our places. His son went into Hell and rose again. He conquered death. He paid the price for every sin that had been and ever would be committed. He was sent to save us from Hell. But there was a requirement to receive that forgiveness. We have to believe. We have to believe in the one true son of God. We have to believe he was sent here for the sole purpose of dying on that cross and conquering death to pay for our sins. We have to believe that he is the only way to Heaven.

 

So, in short, God requires payment for sins. Hell is the payment that is required. Satan tries to drag us into Hell by causing us to sin. God sent his son to be the payment for our sins if we will choose to believe in him.

 

No, the punishment does not fit the act. Besides, what is the purpose? It clearly is sadistic.

[Guest Son of Belial]

If a soul were to stop existing, that's not punishment, because there is no reflection, no remorse. God requires a greater payment for sin that to stop existing.

 

Eternal destruction isn't punishment? So you're saying that if someone is a good person but doesn't believe in Jesus, then a just punishment is eternal torment? You really believe that's "just?" Seriously?

 

Hey, we could have always lived in eternal paradise, but we messed that up with the first two people. A time out isn't near the payment needed for sin. Someone who is covered in sin can't be allowed into Heaven because then Heaven would no longer be perfect.

 

Again, my point is that burning for eternity is NOT a just punishment. A God who truly loved his creations would not choose to BURN THEM FOREVER for not believing stories that they have no evidence of.

 

Because we were created to glorify God. We only glorify him by living in his will and giving him praise/glory. We turn from God and he makes us pay for it.

 

That still doesn't answer the question. Saying that "We were created for the sole purpose of praising God" is the reason why torturing someone for eternity is justified punishment is a non-sequitur.

 

 

Because He is a just God. If he didn't require a payment then all the laws, all his commands would become null because you could just be forgiven when you die, it wouldn't matter what you did. God requires payment for all sin.

 

That still doesn't make sense. How does "justice" equate to "eternal torment?"

 

I don't see how everything you do in life becomes null if you are forgiven after death. Let's assume death is the end. Does that mean I should run out and rape a bunch of people? After all, by that logic, with my death it won't matter what I did.

 

So, as there are consequences in life, let's say there are consequences in the afterlife. I don't understand why those consequences have to equal eternal torment just because I don't believe your God loves me. And how will he prove it? By tormenting me forever? Good way to prove your love, asshole.

 

As a fallible human I can think of plenty of ways I could punish people after they die. Let's say I torture them in Hell, not out of some egotistical need to be loved, but because they actually did something bad. They murdered someone so I make them feel the pain of that murder. I let them see it through the eyes of the victim and everyone that was affected. They have to feel the pain of the family and the friends, and see how far those ripples, caused by the stone he threw into that lake, actually go. Then when he understands what he did and feels the torment and pain that his victims felt - maybe even more, maybe three times or seven times more, why not? But not eternally! even then, I would say his price was paid and let him into Heaven.

 

Am I more forgiving than your all-loving God is?

 

I don't think that person, being punished in the afterlife, would feel that what he did was null and void just because he eventually worked his way into Heaven. He still had to suffer first, just like we suffer on Earth for our mistakes.

 

You know, people shouldn't be let out of prison. Ever. After all, if we let them free, then their punishment was null and void. Right? Isn't that the logic you're using here? Why don't we just burn them in jail, too, but not enough to kill them. Just enough to torture them for years and years.

 

And don't even tell me that would be evil, because it's better than what your God does. At least our prisoners would eventually die, though by your belief they would just go to an even greater torment in Hell.

 

He has the power, you have to believe in Jesus.

 

And that's bullshit. I even listed that as one of the bullshit answers I've heard a hundred times in my original post. You've continued to parrot the same answers I've heard before, all while acting like you're so original.

 

I can't believe you came onto this forum acting like you were the first Christian who would wow us with your amazing knowledge and insight.

 

No. Hell was created as a punishment for Satan after he rebelled in Heaven. Satan tries to drag us down with him. He hates humans because we were given a second chance through Jesus. There is no second chance for fallen angels.

 

That has nothing to do with my question. What Satan wants isn't what God wants... at least, I should hope, assuming God is the good guy and Satan is the villain.

 

We go there because we choose to follow Satan's temptations instead of God's command. That's our punishment.

 

I'm still debating that it is necessary to torment people forever.

 

Didn't you already ask that earlier on?

 

When people use circular logic, the same question gets asked a thousand times. Believe me, we get tired of asking it over and over as much as you get tired of giving the same bullshit explanation over and over.

 

Eternal torment is worse for the soul because it lives on and on in eternal seperation from God, in everlasting torment and remorse for all done wrong in their life.

 

I never argued that it wasn't worse. I agree that it is worse. My argument is that it is cruel, unjust, and idiotic.

 

Ok, Hell was created as a punishment for sin. He doesn't want us to go to Hell. He sent his only son to die on the cross to pay for our sins so we could have the choice to believe and not go there.

 

Bullshit again. Why did he have to send his son to pay for sin? He didn't have the power to just forgive sin without torturing and murdering his own son?

 

Your God has a real hardon for torture and murder, doesn't he?

 

I'm leaving all questions on here but I think I kinda just answered it.

 

In your mind you did anyway.

 

He doesn't want you, his creation to go to Hell.

 

Then all he has to do is wave his magic wand and say "Abracadabra! You're not going to Hell! Why? Because I love you and don't want you to go there!"

 

Instead, he says:

 

"Hey Son of Belial. I know in your life all I showed you was one book of contradictions filled with terrible cruelty and hatred and expected you to believe it. I know there were also hundreds of other religions, and the real one was one of the dumbest. I really love you. But I'm afraid I'll have to burn you for eternity for using your brains and not believing this bullshit."

 

That's why he sent his son. He gave you the redemption avenue. You just have to take it.

 

Maybe Odin died for my sins. How the fuck should I know?

 

I wonder why no one will answer this one. Neither of the choices you give is right.

 

Yet you still fail to give a feasible third option.

 

God created us to walk with him. We sinned and we were cast from paradise, doomed to be seperated from him forever. We chose to listen to Satan.

 

And your all-knowing God knew we would fail, and he created Satan for that specific purpose.

 

God is vengeful and requires payment for the sins we commit.

 

But I thought he was all-loving??? Your God is starting to piss me off with the contradictions and lies.

 

So, we were condemned to die and go to Hell.

 

Because that's what he wants. He doesn't HAVE to. If he's all-powerful, he can choose to NOT send us to Hell. That's the part you're not grasping. HE decided to make sinful people, HE decided to make a burning pit of fire to torture them in, and HE decided that if they don't accept his love, he was going to burn their souls there forever.

 

I can't believe how you don't see the problem with this. I literally, all joking aside, cannot concieve in my brain how you can read what you're saying and not see how it's a problem. I can't comprehend, for all my trying, how you can say what you're saying and not see that it's cruel and unjust.

 

But God loved us so much that he wanted to give us another chance, a way to join him in Heaven, but knew that we could never be good enough to enter a perfect place. We'd only make it unclean, imperfect. So he sent his son to die on the cross in our places. His son went into Hell and rose again. He conquered death. He paid the price for every sin that had been and ever would be committed.

 

So fucking what? Jesus had magical powers. He rose from the dead, conquered Hell, and sailed through the air with the greatest of ease. Who gives a shit? Hercules could have done that too, if the Greeks felt like expanding his myth a little. Who fucking cares?

 

The fact is, everything is as your God planned it. If he decided his son had to be tortured and murdered before he'd forgive us, it's a rule he invented. Why? Because he wanted it that way! The only way you can say it HAD to be that way is if there was an authority ABOVE God that set the rules for him. Is that the case? Or did HE set the rules? I don't see how there could be a third possibility.

 

He was sent to save us from Hell. But there was a requirement to receive that forgiveness. We have to believe. We have to believe in the one true son of God.

 

Now clap your hands and say "I do believe in fairies! I do believe in fairies!"

 

We have to believe he was sent here for the sole purpose of dying on that cross and conquering death to pay for our sins. We have to believe that he is the only way to Heaven.

 

Wow, all we have to do is blindly believe one myth out of thousands, and one with possibly less evidence historically than most of the others? Wow, that IS easy!

 

Remind me to say "I believe" right before I die. Then I can laugh at you when I see you in Heaven because I got to have a fun life on earth, not being a Christian asshole, and still get rewarded in Heaven.

 

What was that you said about perfect justice and being sinless and all that?

 

So, in short, God requires payment for sins. Hell is the payment that is required. Satan tries to drag us into Hell by causing us to sin. God sent his son to be the payment for our sins if we will choose to believe in him.

 

 

Congratulations. You managed to repeat the same tired bullshit I've heard dozens of times before. Well, you sure proved that you were that One True Christian who would come here and show us The Way.

 

God, it still fucking boggles my mind that you people come on here thinking "I'll be the one to show the Truth! No other True Christian has been here before, obviously. I'll do what they couldn't. I'll show them the Way!"

 

Then you come on and parrot the same dumb shit all the others said. Good job.

[John]

kychristian, according to your post, you believe the Holocaust was justified. LOL!

 

By the way, do infants head off to Hell or Heaven (there are problems with both)?

[John]

Son of Belial, how did you create that image?

[Guest Son of Belial]

Son of Belial, how did you create that image?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In paint. I love replying to posts with just an image. I used to do it to Quine all the time. I used to reply with NOTHING but a picture mocking something stupid he said. Usually I take whatever they say word for word and put it on the image and have someone else saying it.

 

That other thread, I think the one about free will, has an image I made of people burning in Hell saying word for word the excuses the Christians on that thread were making for Hell.

 

I remember Paul Manata said something like "You may think you've won, but you're a fool if you think you defeated me." So I took that phrase and had Dr Doom saying it. Another image had Manata telling us that we "live in fantasy land." So I made an image of Peter Pan flying past a dragon, God, Jesus, angels and demons, etc with the words "Paul Manata's World!" at the bottom, and Peter pan saying "You live in fantasy land!"

 

He was an easy mark. My favorite was when I had an image of a parrot saying all the phrase he used to repeat, usually five or six times per post.

[John]

Yeah, those images are hilarious, but unfortunately I don't have paint.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Yeah, those images are hilarious, but unfortunately I don't have paint.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It comes standard on Windows. What OS are you using?

[John]

Oh, I found it! I didn't even know I had the program.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Oh, I found it! I didn't even know I had the program.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You were probably thinking of PaintShop or PhotoShop or Illustrator or something.

[a midnight star]

I was taught the we went to hell not as a punishment for our sins but because we were "born of a sinful" nature and unless we are born again (which changes our spirit into an unsinful one) we can't enter in heaven. god can't look upon sin, nor can any sin enter into heaven.

 

 

 

WOF go figure!!

[Guest JP1283]

KY,

 

Regardless of our religious differences, welcome to the boards.

 

I was thinking of something earlier and I think that this is the right thread to talk about it. Suppose a little boy says a swear word. His father hears it and throws him in a furnace and doesn't let him out. He dies. The father feels the punishment is justified. The punishment hardly fits the crime right? Well, that's what your God does. The littlest thing sets him off and somehow he thinks eternal torment is justified for finite, retarded things like cussing.

 

Suppose the situation above really happened. What would happen to the father? He'd be thrown in prison, probably death row. But when your God does it, he's all-loving and deserving of worship?

 

I'll pass.

 

JP

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I dunno; I'm rather amused at the argument of "Believe in Jesus, and you're then better than all the other sinners who don't, so you get Heaven whilst they get Hell." Which means Adolf Hitler is now singing with the angels, while the Jews he roasted -- because Martin Luther said it was perfectly fine to kill them for Jesus's death -- are continuing to roast on Satan's hibachi. All of the Christian Crusaders who sacked and raped their own Christian Eastern counterparts while believing in Jesus are up in the heavenly choir, while the nuns who were brutally beaten and used for sex are probably down in Hell for being defiled. Yes, truly the work of the divine. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

 

(Which brings up a funnier question: if a Christian signs up as member 666, are they automatically condemned to the Unholy Hibachi?)

[Vigile]

[Warning: Dogmatic statement ahead]

 

Anyone who spends 5 minutes truly contemplating the concept of ETERNAL torture for the rejection of a god and comes away still believing in it is an utter fool and should probably pull their hanky from their pocket to wipe of the drool dripping from the corner of their mouth.

[Vigile]

In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever.

 

Or...

 

God sent himself to save you from himself.

[Christopher Carrion]

The morally polarised dynamic of the "Heaven/Hell" system is one of the many aspects of monotheistic faith which betrays its underlying psychological perversity. First of all, "God" is promoted within the bible and certainly by Christians the world over as the ultimate perfection, a being which logically therefore should be unchanging, and unwanting. A "perfect" by the very definition precludes the concept of change, since to qualify as "perfect" it must remain constant and consistent from conception to end. Therefore, the very fact that bible-god/yahweh/el/adonai whatever you want to call him requires mindless and unquestioning adherence from its followers, not to mention obedience, is evidence in itself that the bible-god is not some autonomous, unasaillable creator-force, but rather a synthetic idea produced by men, in a very particular socio-cultural/political climate, and designed to enforce their own very particular perspectives and agendas. As a result of this, wer have what is generally regarded as one of the earliest (but certainly not the first) eschatological (ideology of death, judgement, heaven and hell) systems in recorded history. Those who conform to what the writers of the bible deemed politically (religiously) and socially correct are rewarded, since they feed into the preconceptions of said writer and therefore elevate them psychologically just as they eleveate themselves. Those who do not, who stand outside of the beliefs and perspectives by which the writer defines himself is punished and degraded, since they present a threat to not only the writer's proscribed belief system, but to the very beliefs by which he maintains self-definition. This is the ugly truth of all eshcatological belief systems; they are a means by which the adherent can psycholoically elevate their sense of self, by actively denouncing and degrading those who function outside of the ideals and perspectives which they have come to hold as their primary means of self definition. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are the most selfish, hostile faiths I have ever come across, and I would be a happier man were they to vanish into the ether and take with them the centuries-legacy of suffering, sadism and intolerance they each have propogated.

[mwc]

He has the power, you have to believe in Jesus.

 

What if I (or anyone else) decide that I want to believe in God (you know, YHWH, the OT guy), and/or maybe the Holy Spirit, with all my heart, but just not Jesus specifically what happens to me? As I recall the purpose of Jesus was to bring us back to god, and historically (via the Jewish religion xtianity broke away from at least), this was YHWH.

 

What's the purpose of specifically believing in different aspects of the same thing? I would think that YHWH would be offended that xtians are putting one aspect of himself ahead of the whole of god (thus effectively breaking that no other gods commandment that you never ask for repentance for since you don't realize your sin).

 

In conversations I have had recently I noticed that when xtians say Jesus, they sometimes use it to mean Jesus/YHWH (but not the spirit, he's always left out poor thing). If I say god, as a generic reference to all, I am often corrected to Jesus. I guess YWHW retired after the OT, moved to Florida and turned the store over to his "son" in the NT because you rarely hear of him much anymore. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we're all going to hell. It appears Jesus decided his old man's policies (as per the Jewish tradition that says hell isn't forever but to learn and evenually return to his presence) were too lenient and that we wouldn't learn anything. This shit happens all too much in family businesses.

 

mwc

[Guest Dragonblade]

Greetings Son of Belial,

 

I've been reading this topic with much interest and can certainly understand your frustration with Christian "logic". I, too, have been involved in similar discussions with Christians and found myself fighting a losing battle. I've come to the conclusion that it would be easier to nail Jell-O to a tree than to try to get these little parots to open their minds and think for themselves.

 

Christians are horrified to learn that I follow Satan instead of Jesus. I tell them Satan has not sent one single soul to Hell; it is their beloved God that does it.

[Purple Rhino]

It boggles my mind that a landscaping snaffoo is root cause of eternal torture.

 

If the tree of 'Knowledge' were kept safely out of reach then we would be Paradisians.

 

It's not Eve's fault nor the snakes. Blame the Gardener!

 

 

PR

[trashy]

So he sent his son to die on the cross in our places.  His son went into Hell and rose again.  He conquered death.  He paid the price for every sin that had been and ever would be committed.  He was sent to save us from Hell.  But there was a requirement to receive that forgiveness.  We have to believe.  We have to believe in the one true son of God.  We have to believe he was sent here for the sole purpose of dying on that cross and conquering death to pay for our sins.  We have to believe that he is the only way to Heaven.

I think this is where the logic falls apart. I could go to hell even though all my sins have already been paid for. Why? Because God won't take that payment and apply it to my 'account' - even if I were a 12-year old kid who never even heard of Jesus. So at the end of time all this 'credit' toward sin will be unused and bajillions will burn in hell forever. That is both unjust and wasteful.

 

P.S. I know you're from Kentucky, but 'KYChristian' just makes me laugh.

[Purple Rhino]

...

 

P.S.  I know you're from Kentucky, but 'KYChristian' just makes me laugh. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Trashy you scare me I so was going to KYChristian = Slippery Character

 

And you beat me!

 

PR

[Mythra]

I predict a short stay for our latest christian clone dogma spewmeister, since we will not provide the same lubrication that he apparently gets from his religion.

 

Hell exists for one reason: because it's the scariest shit mankind could come up with to terrorize a person into loving god.