American Fundamentalism

[Christopher Carrion]

I can honestly say that I had no idea how entrenched religious fundamentalism is in American society until I came to this site. Speaking as a young, British man some of the things that many of the regular posters here have been subjected not only from their family and friends but also from entire communities as a result of their deconversion seem sadistic to the point of insanity.

 

Before I go on, it might be productive to explain the different positions that faith and religion holds in our two increasingly disparate cultures. Britain is largely a secular country. When I say secular, I do not mean that there is a concerted promotion towards atheism or non-adherence to any particular religion, but rather that most people simply do not hold strong religious beliefs, and even those that do for the most part tend to keep it to themselves. The reasons for this are manifold; first of all, Britain is multi-cultural, it has a high percentage of people from varying backgrounds and faiths, and ironically it is only in a cultural structure which maintains secularity that such disparate beliefs are allowed to function without fear of repression or prejudice. Secondly, the country has a long and unpleasant history of Christian occupation and religious turmoil, of which the British Civil War was one inevitable symptom. As such, culturally and politically speaking religion has had its day; as society, if not as individuals, we are aware of the strife and the intolerance that religiously constituted government leads to, and as such there is today a concerted effort to keep religion out of politics and public process.

 

I may be wrong, but it does not seem the same can be said for America. The nation seems to be currently going through a transitional state that is symptomatic of the Imperial cycle; i.e., that of ideological paranoia, and defensive self-interest. What has this to do with Christianity? In and of itself, arguably nothing. What it does provide however, is a possible ratrionale for the permeation of religious fundamentalism, and political extremism that has such a profound influence on the nation's self perception and conduct with regards to other nations. The attitude can be quite consummately summed up with a recent quote from none other than the Alpha-Christian Ape himself, George "Dubya" Bush:

 

"If you're not with us, you're against us."

 

In other words, if you do not support our actions, attitudes and perspectives, even if you do not actively stand against them, you constitute a possible threat to what the speaker in question considers fundamental "'Merkin" (Bush Speak for "American") values and agendas.

 

It is the exact self-same attitude that drives Christian parents to denounce their children when they no longer share a common faith. It is the same basic dynamic that drives American Christians of different churches or denomenations to rail against one another and everyone else who stands outside of their very particular self-constructed beliefs. Insecurity. Plain and simple. They cannot tolerate that which exists outside of the belief system which they have adopted as their primary means of self-definition, as to do so would present a challenge not only to the belief-system in question, but an intensely personal attack on the foundations upon which their personalities are constructed.

 

To most people in Britain (we do have fundamentalists here, but thankfully they are generally regarded with contempt and/or suspicion) to reject your children, spouses, friends or loved ones on the basis of religious belief is insane.

 

I am an out and out atheist. Most of my friends are painfully aware of my perspectives concerning religion, metaphysics and spirituality in general, yet they do not share them. Two of my closest friends at the moment are an engaged couple one of whom is a "soft" Christian, (non-bible reading, non-church attending, but thinks Jesus was an okay guy), the other of which is a pagan/spiritualist and medium to boot. They are very good friends of mine, and we debate religion all the time. Yet we are good friends. Another group of people I hold very dear to my heart are a family of Jehovah's Witnesses who live across the road. Again, they are well aware of my perspectives concerning religion and we debate endlessly, yet I cannot think of another group of people whose company I enjoy more. I wonder whether the same situation would be true had I the (mis?) fortune to be born into modern-day America.

[Guest aexapo]

I can honestly say that I had no idea

 

>trimmed middle of *whole quote* out<

 

whose company I enjoy more. I wonder whether the same situation would be true had I the (mis?) fortune to be born into modern-day America.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Having said that, you'd be amazed at how well we "all get along." I live in a very conservative area, and most of my acquaintances at work know that I'm atheist. I'm still their friend -- we just don't talk religion anymore (most because it's too uncomfortable for them). Having said that, I know that when they go to church, they "pray for my soul," and when they go to the voting booth, they're voting for this idea of Christ's Kingdom on earth, and against me personally as a gay man.

 

Here in the South, it's almost like the "lamb and lion" scenario in the Bible. You have anti-abortionists chatting and being friendly with those who've had abortions, straights with gays, christians with non-christians or muslims. We'll all have the "greatest of times" in the company of each other at work, but we're bitter enemies at the ballot box, at political parades and rallies.

 

They vote against my values, and I sure as hell vote against theirs.

[Vigile]

Britain is largely a secular country. When I say secular, I do not mean that there is a concerted promotion towards atheism or non-adherence to any particular religion, but rather that most people simply do not hold strong religious beliefs, and even those that do for the most part tend to keep it to themselves.

 

Actually, recognizing this about the world outside of America played a very large role in my ultimate deconversion. Traveling let me see a different world than the one I assumed existed. Even moving across the country to DC was a shocker for me. The number of literalist churches in the DC area is much less per capita than in Idaho where I grew up. The number of fundamentalist xtians also represented a much smaller percentage of the population.

 

From DC I moved to Costa Rica and from there I started to recognize that xtianity as we know it in the US is an entirely different breed of animal from what is found in other parts of the world. Even though the population in Costa Rica is religious they don't carry it on their sleeve and it doesn't consume their life. The cross their chests, say a couple of hail Marys and forget about it.

 

Next I moved to Northern Italy, another Catholic country. There I discovered that they were xtians, but truly in name only. I never met one who believed in hell and they will laugh at you if you take Genesis literally. They continually joke about the church and the pope (though they wouldn't let me get away with the same). Religion for them is an afterthought and they have it only because it is part of their culture.

 

Through these experiences I was forced to conclude that the American brand of xtianity is just that, an American brand of xtianity. I would go so far as to say that not one of the thousands of Italians that I met would be considered "born again" by US xtians. If there were a universal god who demanded belief in his sacrifice I find it amusing that the majority of the adherents to this belief can be found isolated between Canada and Mexico with a heavy concentration in the middle sections of the country.

[Asuryan]

Next I moved to Northern Italy, another Catholic country.  There I discovered that they were xtians, but truly in name only.  I never met one who believed in hell and they will laugh at you if you take Genesis literally.  They continually joke about the church and the pope (though they wouldn't let me get away with the same).  Religion for them is an afterthought and they have it only because it is part of their culture.

 

And, as an Italian myself, I couldn't agree more with you.

Italians don't read the bible, Italians don't even read the gospels: this is a cultural heritage, in Italy it has been a crime for a non-priest to read, or even possess, a bible, for many many centuries in the middle ages and even after. The Church has never encouraged people to understand and study the bible, not even in the 1900, not even now. For the Catholic Church, christianity is not a relationship, christianity is obeying everything the church says without question. "No need for you to read and study the bible to search the answers for yourself: just do what our bishops and cardinals tell you to do during Mass or on the national newspapers." Catholic parents and Non Catholic parents alike bring their babies to be baptized because "you never know, and what if the little one should feel different from his friends once he's grown up? We can't allow that!".

From a certain point of view, this is bad, because Catholics are completely unable to see the contradictions between their faith and their actions. Catholics want to be able to divorce, and still eat the holy wafer at mass; or commit an abortion, confess it as a sin, and then eating their disgusting cannibalistic biscuit. Debating with an Italian Catholic is dramatically hard, since they don't know the bible, not even the gospels, they don't know what their own god said about homosexuals, they don't know what their holy book says about women, and so on.

Without a bible to read, they are unable to notice, realize and rise against the cruelties, the contradictions, the sickening horror of their book and their church. So an Italian Catholic has very little chances of becoming an ex-christian. Most ex-christians here show a disgusting laziness once they open their eyes. Since they opened their eyes out of boredom and not because they were horrified and enraged at the lie they have been living (since, as I said, they almost always have never read a single line of the old testament) they don't wish to fight for what they should believe in: equal rights for different sexual orientations, for non married couples, for different religions, and so on.

The ex-christians on this board show a fiery attitude, many people ready to admit that the faith in the Xtian god caused millions of deaths and even today it spreads AIDS in the african third world countries and hate toward gays and muslims and so on. Finding an italian ex-christian is hard, finding one with the same brave attitude of the american ex-christians (but also german, like tocis) is almost impossible.

 

In america, religious oppression is stronger, more direct, and the different culture about reading the bible (instead of letting a priest tell you what he wants, avoiding all verses he doesn't like) brings people to see and realize the weight of their chains, and choose between accepting them unconditionately or breaking them and becoming an Ex-Xtian standing tall and proud as an ancient oak.

In italy, the chains are invisible. Italians breath the faith poison from birth, from the forced baptism, from the continuous association between "Christ" and "Holidays" that reinforces their thinking that Christ is something good and funny, from the showers of gifts and attention and care that they receive during the most important ceremonies of their christian lives... and the poison seeps inside the lungs... and the baby becomes a boy or a girl, and then a youth, and then an adult man, and the poison is there, invisible, but spread in the whole body. It's so hard to rebel against an evil you cannot see!

 

At least, this is the impression that america has given to me compared to italy. I hope I've gotten it right. Nevertheless, those fundies are the ones that help people like you and me to open our eyes and strenghten in our resolve to fight fundy christianity. Maybe we should thank them: we were sheeps, they've made us soldiers!

 

Thanks for reading, and, Vigile del fuoco, why an italian nickname?

[Vigile]

Thanks for reading, and, Vigile del fuoco, why an italian nickname?

 

Thanks Asuryan. You opened my eyes to a lot of the mystery I experienced in Italy. I debated my Italian friends about religion but could never completely understand thier religion since it means something so different to them. Once I asked my best friend Anna several questions about christianity that she couldn't answer for herself. She ended up going to church the next day and asking the priest for answers. I laughed at her because she took two hours to prepare, putting on her best clothes and make up just to go see that old fool. She came home disgustingly angry with the priest because he provided worst answers than her own. She is one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, she even has a Phd in chemistry, and even after this experience with her priest she is shocked that I'm an atheist.

 

My nickname is Italian just because I'm obsessed with Italy. I live in Russia at the moment, but plan to return to Italia someday. It's my heart and I love it there and I love the Italian people. I picked vigile del fuoco because I like to fight against the belief in hell (or eternal fire).

[Asuryan]

Thanks Asuryan.  You opened my eyes to a lot of the mystery I experienced in Italy. 

 

It was my pleasure

I needed lots of time myself to fully understand the reasons why protestants and catholics are so different from one another.

I'm sure you understand Italian pretty well. If you can, try and get this book:

Il libro nero del cristianesimo - duemila anni di crimini nel nome di gesù

Authors:Iacopo Fo, Sergio Tomat, Laura Malucelli

Editions: Edizioni nuovi mondi

You can order it here, where you can read for free an excerpt from chapter 1 too. I bought it myself, it's a good book, easy to read, with an informal, friendly style. Who knows, maybe you could read it then lend it to your friend Anna.

I love your nickname. Firefighters (vigili del fuoco) fight against fire, that's true... and while doing so, they save lives. That seems to me a fight that's worth to be fought.

Come back to Italy, Vigile, we need more people like you here

[Vigile]

Come back to Italy, Vigile, we need more people like you here 

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. My Italian will have to get much better before I'm able to read an entire book, but it might be good practice for me to try.

 

We will be in Italia at the end of the month; but just for a week. I hope to someday buy some property there and move there semi permanently.

[thomas]

I can honestly say that I had no idea how entrenched religious fundamentalism is in American society until I came to this site. Speaking as a young, British ........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In my country the state of Christianity is more or less as in Great Britain. Most people belong to a Church (the Lutheran State Church) for cultural reasons, and then we also have some fundy bible believing Christians, but not so many.

 

When I was a Christian, I was one of the fundy bible believers, and we looked at the liberal State Church Christianity as dead traditionalism. We had no respect for it. In the last years of my Christianity I was very active at a couple of Christian American internet sites. And I must say that the fundy (and also some not so fundy) persons there really helped me see how insane Christainity is. It was a shock to me to see, that people claiming to be holy Christians could blindly support George Bush as a good Christian president, and care so little about the real reasons for the Iraq war, the unlawful treatment of the prisoners at Guantanamo etc. It really helped to open my eyes.

 

But later I have come to see the different versions of Christianity as parts having different roles in the same religious system. The different versions enforce each other and help keeping Christianity influential. The fact that most people here go to the State Church at important milestones in their life (baby baptism, confirmation, funerals etc.) tells me, that Christianity in a subtle way still has an enormous influence here.

 

The last year or so, I have been wondering how this influence works. I don’t have a clear picture, but I can relate to Asuryan when he says that:

 

In italy, the chains are invisible. Italians breath the faith poison from birth, from the forced baptism, from the continuous association between "Christ" and "Holidays" that reinforces their thinking that Christ is something good and funny, from the showers of gifts and attention and care that they receive during the most important ceremonies of their christian lives... and the poison seeps inside the lungs... and the baby becomes a boy or a girl, and then a youth, and then an adult man, and the poison is there, invisible, but spread in the whole body. It's so hard to rebel against an evil you cannot see!

[♦ ficino ♦]

Secondly, the country has a long and unpleasant history of Christian occupation and religious turmoil, of which the British Civil War was one inevitable symptom. As such, culturally and politically speaking religion has had its day; as society, if not as individuals, we are aware of the strife and the intolerance that religiously constituted government leads to, and as such there is today a concerted effort to keep religion out of politics and public process.

 

I may be wrong, but it does not seem the same can be said for America. The nation seems to be currently going through a transitional state that is symptomatic of the Imperial cycle; i.e., that of ideological paranoia, and defensive self-interest.

 

Very interesting and good points, Christopher. In the US I think there was some religious animosity that influenced political and class conflicts, as e.g. Whigs vs. Tories at the time of the Revolution, but largely, I think it's interesting that you point out that the US has not really had a war of religion. So fundamentalist Americans have fantasies about religion in politics being a good thing.

 

I also like your point about empires going through defensive phases. The goddess Roma was venerated all the more, the more the Roman Empire was under threat as it declined. When it became Christian, then persecution happened in times of fear and threat.

 

 

Asuryan, haven't seen you in a while! Have you been away or is it just I haven't noticed? If so, perdona me. Ciao, bella, come stai?

[Christopher Carrion]

Of course there is always the danger of making stock-assumptions of why and how specific ideologies (in this case, Christian fundamentalism) holds sway in currently existing nations based upon the apparent precedents provided by pre-existing, comparable ones. It does seem from my study of various empires and nations throughout history there is a definite cycle of evolution through which globally significant, "imperialist" (the debate as to whether America is an empire or not is redundant; whether it chooses to regard itself as one or not in terms of its current attitude regarding other cultures and nations it more than fulfils the criteria of the label) nations go through before their inevitable decline. What really inspired this thread was an introspective moment in which i was wondering whether many of the American fundamentalists I come across on this site and others realise how truly insane they appear to those outside of the cultures that produced them, or whether they naively assume that Christians believe and act the same the whole world over.

[Vigile]

whether many of the American fundamentalists I come across on this site and others realise how truly insane they appear to those outside of the cultures that produced them, or whether they naively assume that Christians believe and act the same the whole world over.

 

Amusingly, the later.

[Asuryan]

Asuryan, haven't seen you in a while!  Have you been away or is it just I haven't noticed? If so, perdona me.  Ciao, bella, come stai?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey there, ficino A hug to you, I'm happy to see you again!

I have been a bit disoriented by the forum changes (twice, I think, I remember I re-registered two times), lurked for a bit and underwent an intensive study period, but I am and always will be here. This is my home

A pity that I am the only italian here. I plan to make a post about the typically italian phenomenon of "Papaboys", boys and girls utterly devoted to the pope, chanting his name rhytmically, creating slogans, and acting like total heretics of their own faith

[Asuryan]

The last year or so, I have been wondering how this influence works. I don’t have a clear picture, but I can relate to  Asuryan when he says that:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When She says that.

I am a lady.

[Vigile]

A pity that I am the only italian here. I plan to make a post about the typically italian phenomenon of "Papaboys", boys and girls utterly devoted to the pope, chanting his name rhytmically, creating slogans, and acting like total heretics of their own faith 

 

I would love to see you do that Asuryan.

[thomas]

When She says that.

I am a lady.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Asuryan, I am sorry. I won't make that mistake again, I promise.

[Max]

Very interesting thread. I had never really known that the nature of Christianity varied so much around the world. But remember, the original US white folks were Puritans.

 

In most of the US, Christianity is equated with patriotism and morality. Fundies believe that the need to woship is a universal human trait, and can't accept the notion of a person who doesn't worship. I dare say most people here - at least most fundies - have never met an avowed athiest (though they may know some who keep quiet about it). I've only admitted it to two people (other than this group), and one of those times it was because I was drunk.

 

Funny, though, just finding this group makes me a lot less pissed off about the whole thing.

[Christopher Carrion]

Very interesting thread.  I had never really known that the nature of Christianity varied so much around the world.  But remember, the original US white folks were Puritans.

 

In most of the US, Christianity is equated with patriotism and morality.  Fundies believe that the need to woship is a universal human trait, and can't accept the notion of a person who doesn't worship.  I dare say most people here - at least most fundies - have never met an avowed athiest (though they may know some who keep quiet about it).  I've only admitted it to two people (other than this group), and one of those times it was because I was drunk.

 

Funny, though, just finding this group makes me a lot less pissed off about the whole thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is one of the many things that seems strange and insane to those of us living in a largely tolerant and secular community; the very fact that you have to keep your none-adherence "under wraps" as it were throws into extreme doubt the general myth that America likes to promote of itself as "The Land of Freedom of Liberty," does it not?

[Onyx]

WElcome back, Asura!

 

Remember me as Messchird from the old old forum?

[Max]

This is one of the many things that seems strange and insane to those of us living in a largely tolerant and secular community; the very fact that you have to keep your none-adherence "under wraps" as it were throws into extreme doubt the general myth that America likes to promote of itself as "The Land of Freedom of Liberty," does it not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ain't that the truth!