Guest Marty Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Holding hands with your family is not praying.Closing your eyes is not praying. Bowing your head is NOT PRAYING. So long as no one is asking you to lead the prayer, or doing some kind of 'everyone adds their own little bit (aka give a better speech than the person before you)' type of prayer.... who the hell says you are praying? You are listening to someone ELSE pray while you hold hands with your eyes closed! That's IT. NO ONE can dictate or be prayer police for what you've got going on between your ears. My family always says grace at every meal. It's more tradition than faith, and only my dad says the prayer. Instead of saying "Amen" with everyone at the end, I stay true to myself, AND stay true to courtesy towards my family by nodding my head at the end of the prayer. It is an acknowledgment to the speaker...that is all. As far as anyone else is concerned, I have fulfilled the "ritual" adequately enough not to call down an argument or even real notice right there at the table. And my parents know damn well where I stand. They know I'm being courteous to them in this way. And they know damn well I CHOOSE to do that much. They are not idiots. They know if they push, they will lose having me visit for dinner. But don't you think that going along with them is giving them legitimacy? I let them do what they want to, but I continue to fill my plate with food and will even start to eat as long as everyone has been seated. The first time I did it I got a few looks from the guests, but since then its been fine. My sister even joins me, although she tends to make a concerted effort to be extra quiet during the prayer. I just act like people are talking to each other as we settle in. They would not join in with me if I wanted to pray to Zeus, so why sould I cave in and go through the motions when they want to pray to jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 What I want to know is, how does anyone get together with their family that is batsh** crazily religious. I told my second ex, when we were married, he wouldn't be able to stand 5 min. with them. I was right, but he tried to endure through dinner. They are horrible. Even wanted his "testimony", which thankfully I warned him ahead of time, so he had time to figure out what he was going to say. He sort of made it up. I didn't say a word. If he wanted to make sh** up that was up to him. Whatever got him through the interrogation without it turning into an Inquisition was fine with me. My first ex... Well he said, "Your mother, she's a...." I filled in the word and he laughed saying, "You said it, I didn't." She can be too, esp when it comes to her religion. Anyone who comes to their home for dinner, is not only subject to praying (maybe the one asked to pray), but also an interrogation as to whether or not they are an Xian. To say "No" is the wrong answer, unless you are ready to walk out the door and not return. They are far worse on family. I don't know how anyone survives their relatives, even to have dinner with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 For some reason, this thread reminds me of this video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Holding hands with your family is not praying.Closing your eyes is not praying. Bowing your head is NOT PRAYING. You are way less rebellious than I am. I would sooner eat razor blades than bow my head and close my eyes while someone is praying. It would torture my heart to do it. I love my family and don't want to rub my lack of belief in their face but I will not have them drag me off to church on visits and I will not do anything other than give them respectful silence when they are praying. To do so would be to cut out a huge chunk of who I am and would in my mind be giving respect to what they believe. I respect them. I do not respect their beliefs and I won't pretend to. I had to deal with this on my last visit. I just sat quietly with my eyes open while they prayed. I seriously doubt they would ever ask me to pray but if they did I would probably have to bite my lip to stifle the laughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RATIONAL EYES Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 What I want to know is, how does anyone get together with their family that is batsh** crazily religious. I told my second ex, when we were married, he wouldn't be able to stand 5 min. with them. I was right, but he tried to endure through dinner. They are horrible. Even wanted his "testimony", which thankfully I warned him ahead of time, so he had time to figure out what he was going to say. He sort of made it up. I didn't say a word. If he wanted to make sh** up that was up to him. Whatever got him through the interrogation without it turning into an Inquisition was fine with me. My first ex... Well he said, "Your mother, she's a...." I filled in the word and he laughed saying, "You said it, I didn't." She can be too, esp when it comes to her religion. Anyone who comes to their home for dinner, is not only subject to praying (maybe the one asked to pray), but also an interrogation as to whether or not they are an Xian. To say "No" is the wrong answer, unless you are ready to walk out the door and not return. They are far worse on family. I don't know how anyone survives their relatives, even to have dinner with them. I'm sorry you have to deal with this................my family aren't diehards but i don't like to be around the religious atmosphere period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RATIONAL EYES Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Holding hands with your family is not praying.Closing your eyes is not praying. Bowing your head is NOT PRAYING. So long as no one is asking you to lead the prayer, or doing some kind of 'everyone adds their own little bit (aka give a better speech than the person before you)' type of prayer.... who the hell says you are praying? You are listening to someone ELSE pray while you hold hands with your eyes closed! That's IT. NO ONE can dictate or be prayer police for what you've got going on between your ears. My family always says grace at every meal. It's more tradition than faith, and only my dad says the prayer. Instead of saying "Amen" with everyone at the end, I stay true to myself, AND stay true to courtesy towards my family by nodding my head at the end of the prayer. It is an acknowledgment to the speaker...that is all. As far as anyone else is concerned, I have fulfilled the "ritual" adequately enough not to call down an argument or even real notice right there at the table. And my parents know damn well where I stand. They know I'm being courteous to them in this way. And they know damn well I CHOOSE to do that much. They are not idiots. They know if they push, they will lose having me visit for dinner. But don't you think that going along with them is giving them legitimacy? I let them do what they want to, but I continue to fill my plate with food and will even start to eat as long as everyone has been seated. The first time I did it I got a few looks from the guests, but since then its been fine. My sister even joins me, although she tends to make a concerted effort to be extra quiet during the prayer. I just act like people are talking to each other as we settle in. They would not join in with me if I wanted to pray to Zeus, so why sould I cave in and go through the motions when they want to pray to jesus? This is how i feel,i know there is a boundary between respect for your family and respect for their beliefs. I feel like i'm going along with it is encouraging them and im still a sheep,i know im not sitting there believing it but taking part of it feels like not much has changed. I would somehow like to encourage this type of thing to stop,but i know it won't,its just wishful thinking........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 But don't you think that going along with them is giving them legitimacy? It's your own family. It's not like being invited to Thanksgiving dinner at Pat Robertson's house or something. There's no need to hammer your own family with your anti-Christianity if all they're doing is praying before eating. That's about as rude as farting audibly on purpose. Best thing to do is what Vigile does... just remain quiet without disrupting things, and dig in! Although if it was Mriana's family... good God! I'd be liable to jump through the sliding glass door and run screaming into the night. I squirmed with extreme discomfort just reading that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RATIONAL EYES Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 But don't you think that going along with them is giving them legitimacy? It's your own family. It's not like being invited to Thanksgiving dinner at Pat Robertson's house or something. There's no need to hammer your own family with your anti-Christianity if all they're doing is praying before eating. That's about as rude as farting audibly on purpose. Best thing to do is what Vigile does... just remain quiet without disrupting things, and dig in! Although if it was Mriana's family... good God! I'd be liable to jump through the sliding glass door and run screaming into the night. I squirmed with extreme discomfort just reading that. hehehe.....right on............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 What I want to know is, how does anyone get together with their family that is batsh** crazily religious. I told my second ex, when we were married, he wouldn't be able to stand 5 min. with them. I was right, but he tried to endure through dinner. They are horrible. Even wanted his "testimony", which thankfully I warned him ahead of time, so he had time to figure out what he was going to say. He sort of made it up. I didn't say a word. If he wanted to make sh** up that was up to him. Whatever got him through the interrogation without it turning into an Inquisition was fine with me. My first ex... Well he said, "Your mother, she's a...." I filled in the word and he laughed saying, "You said it, I didn't." She can be too, esp when it comes to her religion. Anyone who comes to their home for dinner, is not only subject to praying (maybe the one asked to pray), but also an interrogation as to whether or not they are an Xian. To say "No" is the wrong answer, unless you are ready to walk out the door and not return. They are far worse on family. I don't know how anyone survives their relatives, even to have dinner with them. I'm sorry you have to deal with this................my family aren't diehards but i don't like to be around the religious atmosphere period It's precisely why I try to avoid them as much as possible. They are comply and totally batsh** insane zealots and those they associate with, as well as their family members, better be too or else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 It's precisely why I try to avoid them as much as possible. They are comply and totally batsh** insane zealots and those they associate with, as well as their family members, better be too or else. How far away do you live from them? Many here have found that distance helps... the more, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_PK Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 How do any of you deal with (if this applies to you) your family praying over a meal and everyone joins hands and (most of your family doesnt really know or understand your view on religion)do you A. shout im agnostic, athiest, other B. get up and leave the room C. go along with it D. avoid family gatherings because of this type of this thing. I avoided going to my moms easter dinner cause i could just imagine everyone praying over chicken tettrazini or whatever and now she thinks im mad at her. Anytime ive ever tried to debate religion she automatically leaves the room or says "im not going to talk about this" Im the only one in my family like me,free of religion. My mom.stepdad,grandma,cousins and even my girlfriend whom i live with are all christians. from methodists to hardcore baptists. Anyway i just wanted to know how you all deal with this! Thanx................ If I have family over for a meal, we don't pray at our house. If somebody wants to pray on their own before they start eating, I think that's fine but not as a group. If I'm at somebody else's house and they do a group prayer, I will stand quietly while others bow their heads, but I keep my eyes open. It has often been interesting to find out who else is also standing with their eyes open, and the religious typically don't notice because they all have their heads bowed. Sort of a stealth atheist sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 and the religious typically don't notice because they all have their heads bowed. Sort of a stealth atheist sign. I noticed the same thing at a funeral I attended back in the States last summer. Most bowed, but there were a few of us just standing looking around to see who else was not praying. Either they were stealth atheists or busy bodies checking the flock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 It's precisely why I try to avoid them as much as possible. They are comply and totally batsh** insane zealots and those they associate with, as well as their family members, better be too or else. How far away do you live from them? Many here have found that distance helps... the more, the better. Currently 2-4 hours, depending on who you are talking about. More if you include those up in Illinois. Currently, I wish it were further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RATIONAL EYES Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 It's precisely why I try to avoid them as much as possible. They are comply and totally batsh** insane zealots and those they associate with, as well as their family members, better be too or else. How far away do you live from them? Many here have found that distance helps... the more, the better. Currently 2-4 hours, depending on who you are talking about. More if you include those up in Illinois. Currently, I wish it were further. i live 10 minutes from my parents....................grrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 i live 10 minutes from my parents....................grrrrr Oh you poor thing. I must admit though, I did not realize how much trouble I had articulating my own experiences with my relatives until today. I think I would be having more problems if my relatives lived 10 minutes away from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddinhead Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've had to be in that situation too. It's very awkward, especially when it's "everyone but you will be holding hands" thing. The double-standard bothers me and when you have kids, it complicates things. I want to model good behavior for them. To be gracious but not ashamed of my beliefs. When I go to their house, sure, I expect them to pray. Do their thing. But when they are at my house, eating my food, they should go along with our deal and not force their customs on us. It used to irritate me, so I did a small thing to stand up against it. When they did that plaintive "Could we pray before we eat..." <pause. 5 sets of niece and nephew eyes are upon me> I say "Sure!" in an enthusiastic way, then to my kids I say "Guys! They're going to pray now, so let's be silent while they do that." And then I let them pray and be silent. I don't even bow my head. And when the little kids peek up to see what "Auntie Christ" is doing during prayer, I wink at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 In my house? My mother once came and we started eating. She had been waiting to say grace, but saw us eating instead. She asked, "Aren't you going to say grace?" Fight and argue with you or just appease her? She had me say grace! Total reverse of what I had become accustom to. I truly believe that crazy trickery is a test. It is there way to see if you measure up to what they want to see. One of these days I'll get a backbone. When I do, it might give her a stroke or a heart attack though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RATIONAL EYES Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 i live 10 minutes from my parents....................grrrrr Oh you poor thing. I must admit though, I did not realize how much trouble I had articulating my own experiences with my relatives until today. I think I would be having more problems if my relatives lived 10 minutes away from me. Even though my parents are 10 minutes away they dont sound as diehard as your family,im sure you put up with worse than i do,im sorry,keep your head up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RATIONAL EYES Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've had to be in that situation too. It's very awkward, especially when it's "everyone but you will be holding hands" thing. The double-standard bothers me and when you have kids, it complicates things. I want to model good behavior for them. To be gracious but not ashamed of my beliefs. When I go to their house, sure, I expect them to pray. Do their thing. But when they are at my house, eating my food, they should go along with our deal and not force their customs on us. It used to irritate me, so I did a small thing to stand up against it. When they did that plaintive "Could we pray before we eat..." <pause. 5 sets of niece and nephew eyes are upon me> I say "Sure!" in an enthusiastic way, then to my kids I say "Guys! They're going to pray now, so let's be silent while they do that." And then I let them pray and be silent. I don't even bow my head. And when the little kids peek up to see what "Auntie Christ" is doing during prayer, I wink at them. yeah if it was in my house i'd have to say something......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 23, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted April 23, 2009 When I do, it might give her a stroke or a heart attack though. They survive. They always do, Mriana. You shouldn't assume, as Mom does, that Christianity is the default position and everybody better fall in line or do a lot of explaining. Fuck that - make HER defend her belief! You are entitled to disagree with her opinion and still get respect. It works both ways, or it doesn't work at all. Good luck to everyone on understanding that you are the believers' equal! You don't have to apologize for thinking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I'm not assuming anything. I know how she will react. Already got a taste of it. Of course you are absolutely right that I don't have to apologize for thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ephymeris Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 What I want to know is, how does anyone get together with their family that is batsh** crazily religious. I told my second ex, when we were married, he wouldn't be able to stand 5 min. with them. I was right, but he tried to endure through dinner. They are horrible. Even wanted his "testimony", which thankfully I warned him ahead of time, so he had time to figure out what he was going to say. He sort of made it up. I didn't say a word. If he wanted to make sh** up that was up to him. Whatever got him through the interrogation without it turning into an Inquisition was fine with me. My first ex... Well he said, "Your mother, she's a...." I filled in the word and he laughed saying, "You said it, I didn't." She can be too, esp when it comes to her religion. Anyone who comes to their home for dinner, is not only subject to praying (maybe the one asked to pray), but also an interrogation as to whether or not they are an Xian. To say "No" is the wrong answer, unless you are ready to walk out the door and not return. They are far worse on family. I don't know how anyone survives their relatives, even to have dinner with them. I think your family is so intrusive they seem to be beyond hope! You poor thing I don't think I could tolerate that. Luckily my family has nice, healthy walls where we don't talk about real issues...ever. I don't bow my head or close my eyes but I will hold their hands and be quiet for a minute and look at who else is sneaking looks around This is only ever awkward at my inlaws because my wonderful father-in-law often becomes tearful during holiday prayers as he thanks god my husband and I are home and we are all briefly together again. It kind of chokes me up too. My husband and his parents are a freakishly well adjusted, loving family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 What I want to know is, how does anyone get together with their family that is batsh** crazily religious. I told my second ex, when we were married, he wouldn't be able to stand 5 min. with them. I was right, but he tried to endure through dinner. They are horrible. Even wanted his "testimony", which thankfully I warned him ahead of time, so he had time to figure out what he was going to say. He sort of made it up. I didn't say a word. If he wanted to make sh** up that was up to him. Whatever got him through the interrogation without it turning into an Inquisition was fine with me. My first ex... Well he said, "Your mother, she's a...." I filled in the word and he laughed saying, "You said it, I didn't." She can be too, esp when it comes to her religion. Anyone who comes to their home for dinner, is not only subject to praying (maybe the one asked to pray), but also an interrogation as to whether or not they are an Xian. To say "No" is the wrong answer, unless you are ready to walk out the door and not return. They are far worse on family. I don't know how anyone survives their relatives, even to have dinner with them. I think your family is so intrusive they seem to be beyond hope! You poor thing I don't think I could tolerate that. Luckily my family has nice, healthy walls where we don't talk about real issues...ever. I don't bow my head or close my eyes but I will hold their hands and be quiet for a minute and look at who else is sneaking looks around This is only ever awkward at my inlaws because my wonderful father-in-law often becomes tearful during holiday prayers as he thanks god my husband and I are home and we are all briefly together again. It kind of chokes me up too. My husband and his parents are a freakishly well adjusted, loving family. Sadly I agree and I'm afraid I will be seeing more commit suicide or something. That is the most disturbing part of it all. The worst part is, I feel the need to avoid them as much as I possibly can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 One of these days I'll get a backbone. When I do, it might give her a stroke or a heart attack though. I am not saying this to discourage you. But I am convinced that the health problems that my parents have had since I deconverted have been at least partly because of the grief and stress I caused them. My father has started having heart problems when he had none before. I am still glad that I am being honest and living a life that's true to myself. I am not responsible for my parents' reaction except to treat them with respect- which means that I don't bludgeon them over the head with anger or ugliness- NOT that I stop being honest. And previously, my deceptions were causing health problems of my own. But seeing their stress related health problems is a consequence I have to face. It probably won't be the same for most people- most families just move on, even if they're angry or disapproving. But it is a possibility and I think that those who are getting ready to talk to their families have to realize that they are not at fault for how their family deals with it- even if the result is worse than they were expecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I am not saying this to discourage you. No, it's not you. You aren't the one discouraging me. I've seen what my relatives have driven others to when became open with counter views. Might I add that it was a year or less since my step-cousin committed suicide in part because of how they were treating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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