Death And Science

[Abiyoyo]

Death and science are really two words that probably shouldn't go together, just as science and religion shouldn't. One thing, looking at all the facts, studies, histories, religions, Gods, human, everything, etc is that death is going to happen, unless science figures out how to immortalize life. This has not been done, and until then, death is something unavoidable. In my personal experience, death, is the one thing that keeps me believing in religion.

 

Religion is usually, for a non believer- useless, and mythological. Yet, death is something that our, sciences, have not figured out fully. Why is a religious person necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death? Does the Christian concept of hell cancel out a Heaven? Does the Christian concept of Heaven cancel out Hell?

 

Maybe both exist, yet we interpret and judge, when we are not upheld to do so. Maybe we take God, and His authority into our own hands. I could be the most righteous person ever to have lived, and I still would not be able to judge where someone spends there eternal rest. The finite can't define the infinite, right? But the infinite can define the finite. If we are all God's children, then would we not go to be with the father of His creation? Does our finite sins exclude us from the infinite?

 

I understand this concept. "Go, and sin no more", but I also understand the concept that Christ has come for all salvation. How can Good news turn into Bad news? I used to not understand the concept of salvation under the Once saved always saved theology; but more and more everyday, I begin to see the light of this concept.

 

Death, is the hangnail for me with the whole subject. What was the most punishable result of a sin in the OT?; it was death in the finite. Man sinned, God/priests to God put them to death. They would leave the finite and enter into the infinite, is what one would assume. Angels coming down from heaven, whirlwinds from heaven, chariots hurrying down from heaven, manna falling from heaven, etc. Though the subject of afterlife was not mentioned much in the OT, the concept is there. Samuel being raised from the dead by Saul to speak to a spiritualist. It shows a concept of life after death.

 

Finite death, being the ultimate punishment for sin. It makes more sense to me that if Jesus Christ was the Son of God, to die for the human race, "It is finished", that it was for mankind, the mercy seat of human sin. But also, the revolution from God to all mankind to have a way to understand Him, in whichever fashion, through His Son.

 

So, now we have other Christian theology. If you don't believe in the Son, then we are condemned, right? According to King James Bible, yet that word also can be translated as 'judged'; in which it is in several other verses, just applied as condemned in that verse. Matter of fact, this particular wording is the only occasion that the word condemned is used, instead of judged.

 

Now, the NT is well versed on the fact that we are all judged, in the next life. Revelations speaks of the judgment, where the books are opened; and all life will be 'raised up' to be judged. So, our sin isn't necessarily forgotten. Jesus in Revelations said He will confess us, or His, to the father. One of the Books being opened is the Lamb's book of life, those written in the Book by the Lamb of God. There is a second, which would resolve the issue of, don't believe in Jesus, and you go to hell.

 

The hell concept has went to far. I do believe there is a hell, where God will cause a separation from evil and good, yet, I say that is in the flesh. Lazarus and the beggar are a good example of this scenario. People say, well, this proves that Jesus said there is a hell. I say this. Jesus was still alive, and Jesus said in the story that Abraham said the man's family had Moses, and the prophets. Not, Moses, the prophets, and God's Son Jesus.

 

Jesus said in Revelations that He has the keys to death and Hell; while the NT speaks of Jesus preaching to the dead. If Hell is Hell, then how could Jesus preach to the dead? Hell has been overcome. Hell was the place the soul I believe went after death, before Christ; now we wait in sleep until we are 'awoken'.

 

We still have the issue of the eternal destination of those that 'aren't written in either books'. Here's my theory. Jesus preached to the dead spirits in hell according to the Bible. That means demons can be preached. Jesus cast the demons from the man into a pig, and into the water were they all drowned, right? Where did they go?? They were already spiritual beings??

 

They went home!! That's my theory anyhow. The demons, when taking by death, being inside the pigs; where forced to go back to the locks of Hell. Maybe a demon upon possession during death of the physical, returns to Hell for good.

 

Anyway, I see the judgment of the books of life as the spiritual judgment as well, not just for physical life, but also the judgment of all being. The last judgment of all matter in God's plateau of life. Humans are the only physical life form on earth that are capable of what we are capable of. Animals are judged? I wouldn't think, but that's my opinion. I say that because we have to obviously mean more to God if Jesus cast the demon from the human, and into the pig, which drowned to death. The sparrow that falls to the ground saying, the number of hairs on our head.

 

So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified, and still held to many degrees. It is the one commonality of all human race.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Guest Net Eng]

Religion is usually, for a non believer- useless, and mythological. Yet, death is something that our, sciences, have not figured out fully. Why is a religious person necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death?

 

Personally if you want to believe in the tooth fairy I'm good with that.

 

However, Christian, Muslims etc... want to extend their beliefs into the laws that govern all of us and the schools where our children are taught. That I cannot condone.

 

Death for me is not an issue. I never noticed non-existence before I was born so what's the big deal ??

 

Plus, if fear of punishment is cause for belief in religion does that not make belief in that religion fake?? You really don't love gawd you just don't want to suffer the consequences.

 

 

"Life is pleasant, death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome - Isaac Asimov."

[florduh]

My thoughts?

 

Yet, death is something that our, sciences, have not figured out fully.

 

Yes, they have. You (and most everybody) just want there to be more. You wish you were immortal - who doesn't? Wishing and hoping isn't going to make anything actually true.

 

 

So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified,

 

Fear of death, the unknown, is the primary tool of control. That doesn't make it "justified."

 

 

Incidentally, if fear of death is your reason to adopt a religion, Christianity isn't the only choice available to you.

 

If the fear wielded by Christianity specifically is your reason to believe in it, then you're a victim in life.

[Abiyoyo]

"Life is pleasant, death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome - Isaac Asimov."

 

Maybe it has just been a difficult thing for me, dunno. I always feared death, even before I became religious. Sometimes, I still do depending upon what state of mind I'm in.

[highvoltage]

Maybe it has just been a difficult thing for me, dunno. I always feared death, even before I became religious. Sometimes, I still do depending upon what state of mind I'm in.

 

I'm afraid of lying on my death bed and realizing I never really lived.

[Abiyoyo]

My thoughts?

 

YoYo- Yet, death is something that our, sciences, have not figured out fully.

 

 

 

Yes, they have. You (and most everybody) just want there to be more. You wish you were immortal - who doesn't? Wishing and hoping isn't going to make anything actually true.

 

How has science figured out death? I meant that in the way of, not dying. I understand medicine, surgeries, etc are all related to sciences, as well as other 'life extending things'; yet, yes, immortality has not been scientifically achieved.

YoYo- So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified,

 

Fear of death, the unknown, is the primary tool of control. That doesn't make it "justified."

 

 

Incidentally, if fear of death is your reason to adopt a religion, Christianity isn't the only choice available to you.

 

If the fear wielded by Christianity specifically is your reason to believe in it, then you're a victim in life.

 

Justified, and wielded to consider a higher being. The rest, as you said, is a choice to me.

[florduh]

How has science figured out death? I meant that in the way of, not dying. I understand medicine, surgeries, etc are all related to sciences, as well as other 'life extending things'; yet, yes, immortality has not been scientifically achieved.

 

YoYo- So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified,

 

Living tissue probably can't remain viable forever regardless of all the medical advances. Since that's unacceptable to some people, an alternate world of magic is employed to ease the pain and fear. The motivation to do that is understandable.

 

The problem I have with that is assuming a duality that has no basis in evidence (that there exists a real person separate from his body), and that immortality must be achievable in at least some fashion. With that premise one must conclude that since science can't provide immortality for our physical bodies, then a god must provide immortality for the non-physical person that is assumed to exist.

 

That's just too many unsupported assumptions for me.

[chefranden]

1. Why is a religious person necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death?

 

2. So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified, and still held to many degrees. It is the one commonality of all human race.

 

3. ...immortality has not been scientifically achieved.

 

1. For the same reason that believing that Santa will eventually bring you that 10 speed bike you asked him for when you were 10 is necessarily wrong.

 

2. Does it justify all religions? Why or why not?

 

3. What if immortality is scientifically achieved? Would it be a sin to partake of it? Would you go with a proven scientific method or would you stick with Jesus?

[Abiyoyo]

1. Why is a religious person necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death?

 

2. So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified, and still held to many degrees. It is the one commonality of all human race.

 

3. ...immortality has not been scientifically achieved.

 

1. For the same reason that believing that Santa will eventually bring you that 10 speed bike you asked him for when you were 10 is necessarily wrong.

 

2. Does it justify all religions? Why or why not?

 

3. What if immortality is scientifically achieved? Would it be a sin to partake of it? Would you go with a proven scientific method or would you stick with Jesus?

 

1) That really doesn't apply well because as when Santa doesn't bring me that bike. My mother can say,"Well son, I'm sorry, there is no Santa Claus really, and I couldn't afford it." There are real walking, talking, alive people that understand what the 'aftermath' is of, no Santa Claus. Do you know anyone Chef that can comfort me of what becomes of my highly emotional, creative, thought and reasoned mind when it ceases to have blood flow?

 

2) Can't know till the end, and that's the point of the whole topic.

 

3) I don't think our creativity will endure that long until reality finds life out again. Reality is that the human body is complex, and it's requirements are endless. We may seem immortal, yet someone with any common sense would know that we would not be immortal. Immortality is endless, ever existing, correct?

 

For one, we are subject to the natural world, regardless of our creativity. So, if scientist A discovers a special pill that lets our bodies work properly without any physical needs, then how would that come into play? Immortality would be likened, fashioned, coined so to speak, but we would not be immortal as a car could hit us and cease whatever the pill has done before our creativity can fix it, because we are subject to nature. Not to mention, this pill would have to be a super pill. Stop aging. Rejuvenate total aging loss in muscle tissues, joints, etc. Our physical stance as human race. Of course too Chef, then we would become Superman, minus the flying and stopping bullets and all. So, these people are not subject to nutrition any longer I assume, just eat to fill the stomach, which we already have pills to do that; so they actually don't even have to eat.

 

The Superpill levels the human completely, and gives them eternal life, in the physical realm. Before long, everyone starts taking these pills. So many variables to think of for this scenario Chef, many. Life on Earth would be very different. Another Chef, we take the Superpill, live as I described, and before you know it, we have close to 40billion people left on Earth. What to do then? So, we explore other planets.

 

If there was a Superpill, then we would be immortal creatures, still subject to a tree falling on us, or one of our inventions crushing our bodies completely.

 

A science that brings non decomposed humans back to life! That's a good immorality science. People after they died of natural causes, just use the science, and wake up to life!

A science that turns every aspect and function of the human body into a robotic state, to where it will never cease, with the cooperation of the brain of that person. Still all that person, yet, robotic science is the operation of every thought! Like life support, except, functioning and tangible!

Except, if a tree falls on our head, or a bullet is shot through our head, that brain is dead, or unable to be fixed back to original state.

 

Our existence as the human race is subject to nature. And nature on Earth is subject to this universe. And this universe subjection is unknown.

 

If we have not oxygen to breathe, then we can't live. My question to you is where does oxygen come from? Plants, water, atmosphere, etc right?

 

Just as humans living on Mars. We either have to create that natural environment there, create a copy of Earth's environment on the planet for humans to live, or copy our environment within the confines of technology in a suit for ourselves.

 

BUT, nature can destroy anything we create with it's force, and when I say that I don't mean just a force like a windstorm, Hurricane, Tornado, Tsunami, Earthquake, Volcano eruption, Global Warming, Fresh Water, etc. I mean that as ourselves, included, since we are a product of nature itself. We as human beings are very capable of much accidental, and purposeful destruction.

 

So, we are always subject to ourselves and nature because we are a product of nature.

 

Even if immortality could be obtained, it would be in vain, and would be subject to nature, and not genuinely immortality. Now, living my life believing in a God that gives immortal life isn't in vain, because I live just as any other person would, yet I have a hope of a fantasy that most human life has always fantasized, immortality! I just have to wait and see I guess :wink:

 

So, getting back to the OP, why does one say that a religious person is necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death?

[florduh]

Now, living my life believing in a God that gives immortal life isn't in vain, because I live just as any other person would, yet I have a hope of a fantasy that most human life has always fantasized, immortality! I just have to wait and see I guess

 

Ah, Pascal's Wager. Again.

 

Guess you also better hope that god's name isn't Allah, or you're fucked too!

[Abiyoyo]

Now, living my life believing in a God that gives immortal life isn't in vain, because I live just as any other person would, yet I have a hope of a fantasy that most human life has always fantasized, immortality! I just have to wait and see I guess

 

Ah, Pascal's Wager. Again.

 

Guess you also better hope that god's name isn't Allah, or you're fucked too!

 

Yes, I do choose Christianity, as I believe Jesus was of the essence of the one true God. That doesn't mean Allah or anyother people that have claimed God are not valid, it just means I chose Christ.

[Vomit Comet]

Banking on the Rapture to hit before science gets that far, eh?

[Guest Marty]

Yoyo, doesn't it seem odd that church sells you a product that is impossible to know if it exists until you die? Is there a better con game around? If so, I've never heard of it.

 

You may be afraid of death, lots of people are. But is that fear so great you will believe anything, not matter how outrageous, just on the hope you will not cease to exist?

 

And Floriduh mentioned Allah not because he is an alternate god, but because the Muslim hell is far, far worse than the xtian hell. Since you brought up Pascal's wager, he was commenting that you could be wrong about jesus and be tormented much more harshly than you think you will be escaping right now. There is a good chance Islam is truer than xtainity too. It's newer, perhaps god had forgotten to mention some things when Moses and jesus were around so he had to send old Mo' to set things straight again. It does seem god is quite forgetful at times.

[Vigile]

YoYo, what happens to an engine if you remove all it's spark plugs? What happens to a computer if you remove it's hard drive?

 

We KNOW that consciousness lives in the brain. We also know that when the brain stops receiving oxygen it dies. These are things we KNOW.

 

We can speculate that maybe there is something more and that somehow consciousness lives on beyond brain death but based on everything we know, that is an impossibility.

 

So, given all available evidence and everything we do know, some still choose to speculate on the slim possibility that consciousness can live on even without the mechanism that allows it to be in the first place. It seems insane to me, but of course we don't know everything.

 

Now what you are doing is taking that uber remote possibility that consciousness can live on (ever play the lotto? Odds are much slimmer here) and leaping to one hell of a conclusion. That conclusion you are leaping to is that some story passed down from generations, a story riddled with contradictions, might just maybe be true.

 

So, here you have infinitesimal odds just against consciousness living on after brain death and then you are stacking on top of those odds an even more infinitesimally small probability that some story riddled with errors and without one iota of supporting evidence might be true and you are basing your life on this.

 

Stay out of Vegas. They will eat you alive.

[chefranden]

1) That really doesn't apply well because as when Santa doesn't bring me that bike. My mother can say,"Well son, I'm sorry, there is no Santa Claus really, and I couldn't afford it." There are real walking, talking, alive people that understand what the 'aftermath' is of, no Santa Claus. Do you know anyone Chef that can comfort me of what becomes of my highly emotional, creative, thought and reasoned mind when it ceases to have blood flow?

 

Comfort you? What the heck? Here is a real walking, talking, alive person telling you that the aftermath of no god is nothing. You won't mind not existing a bit, for you will have no mind when the blood ceases to flow to mind it with. How do I know? Because I never minded not existing before I had a mind for the same reason.

 

Now that may not comfort you. I'm still not comforted about the bike even though the reason for not getting it was explained to me. My non-comforted state does not guarantee that Santa really will give me the bike someday.

 

2) Can't know till the end, and that's the point of the whole topic.

 

Then how do you know you have the right religion to preserve your mind? Maybe if you were broke a lottery ticket would comfort you as long as they never had the drawing to actually pass out the money.

 

3) I don't think our creativity will endure that long until reality finds life out again. Reality is that the human body is complex, and it's requirements are endless. We may seem immortal, yet someone with any common sense would know that we would not be immortal. Immortality is endless, ever existing, correct?

 

The questions were hypothetical. I don't think that science will produce immortality. Eventually the sun will burn out. Eventually the universe will get cold.

 

For one, we are subject to the natural world... So, we are always subject to ourselves and nature because we are a product of nature.

 

I should say I rest my case. Here it is in a nutshell; humans are natural not supernatural. Nothing supernatural has ever been found. When ever anything new is found, it turns out to be natural. I suspect that trend will continue. The natural will end. You will end. Your wonderful mind will end. As it is written, "It came to pass."

 

 

 

Even if immortality could be obtained, it would be in vain, and would be subject to nature, and not genuinely immortality. Now, living my life believing in a God that gives immortal life isn't in vain, because I live just as any other person would, yet I have a hope of a fantasy that most human life has always fantasized, immortality! I just have to wait and see I guess :wink:

 

At least you admit it was a fantasy. Sometimes I fantasize about winning the lotto. Most of the time the fantasy isn't enough to motivate me to by a ticket. I think, "gee I could buy a chance to be a rich guy or buy a Milkyway." I usually opt for the Milkyway. A candy bar in the hand is better than a candy factory in the bush.

 

So, getting back to the OP, why does one say that a religious person is necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death?

 

So, getting back to my answer -- because one sees the gullibility of the child who depends on Santa to provide his wants. Nothing wrong with a child living in a fantasy world unless it causes the child to refuse to mature. "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."

 

Once I discover something is or probably is a fantasy, I can't pretend otherwise. It could be failing on my part.

 

As far as comfort goes, I'm more comfortable with the idea of being dead than I ever was as a Christian. I'm still just as queasy with the dying bit. I'm not a fan of personal pain, but not even religion gives one an out on that.

[florduh]

It occurs to me that religion is like the government. Its agenda is to control your behavior and take your money. The primary tool for accomplishing that goal is this, and it's based on fear in both instances:

 

1. Convince you that an enemy, crisis, problem or a situation exists, for example, you have a soul that will live forever. The Christian religion offers only two possibilities for that soul they got you to believe in - it will either enjoy peace or suffer torment for all eternity. They set themselves up as the authority on souls, so they must know those details.

 

2. Lucky for you, they have a solution to the dilemma that they want to sell you. Since you bought the story about living forever, it is now only through them that you can guarantee an eternity of happiness rather than torture. Go along with them or be damned, literally.

 

What's amazing to me is that this scam can be accomplished without offering a single shred of proof. Instilling a "what if" fear is enough to close the deal. It's the WMD story coming from the priests rather than the politicians.

[Kuroikaze]

Death and science are really two words that probably shouldn't go together, just as science and religion shouldn't. One thing, looking at all the facts, studies, histories, religions, Gods, human, everything, etc is that death is going to happen, unless science figures out how to immortalize life. This has not been done, and until then, death is something unavoidable. In my personal experience, death, is the one thing that keeps me believing in religion.

 

Religion is usually, for a non believer- useless, and mythological. Yet, death is something that our, sciences, have not figured out fully. Why is a religious person necessarily wrong, or confused, or believing in mythology, when what they may believe has hope of life after death? Does the Christian concept of hell cancel out a Heaven? Does the Christian concept of Heaven cancel out Hell?

 

So because there isn't a scientific answer you just assume that religion has one? and in particular the religion you happened to be raised in? well isn't that convenient for you?

 

Maybe both exist, yet we interpret and judge, when we are not upheld to do so. Maybe we take God, and His authority into our own hands. I could be the most righteous person ever to have lived, and I still would not be able to judge where someone spends there eternal rest. The finite can't define the infinite, right? But the infinite can define the finite. If we are all God's children, then would we not go to be with the father of His creation? Does our finite sins exclude us from the infinite?

 

When you claim the infinite can define the finite you are, in fact, defining the infinite. If you don't understand it, you don't understand it. Don't claim you can't know anything about something and then go and tell us something about it.

 

 

 

So, I think death is the reason that religion is justified, and still held to many degrees. It is the one commonality of all human race.

 

Do many people believe in religion because they are afraid of the unknown? Yes I would agree, but weather or not that is justified is an entirely different topic. Ones desire for there to be life after death is not evidence that such a thing exists, yet you seem to be claiming that it is.

[Dhampir]

Something that occurred to me is that no energy can be stored without a physical medium. That is, all energy in the universe that isn't stored in a physical form, is in travel, and it's constantly changing form. The human mind is electrical impulses, housed and framed by the brain, neurons, synapses, nerves, chemicals, etc. It is those physical components that form the basic aspects of the mind, ego, personality etc. When the brain shuts down, the electrical impulses, generated by the brain, stop, and those physical components break down.

 

What is the soul, that it can remain cohesive while separate from a physical storage? How can it keep its exact form when no other type of energy can do so?

 

Okay, so Science can't say for certain that death is the end, but seeing as Science can't say ANYTHING with an absolute certainty, I'd say that's no argument in favor of your position. The evidence brought to us by science is enough to say that the soul probably doesn't exist AND, if death isn't the end, that fact has nothing to do with a disembodied specter that needlessly attaches itself to the physical for finite periods.

[Vomit Comet]

And Floriduh mentioned Allah not because he is an alternate god, but because the Muslim hell is far, far worse than the xtian hell. Since you brought up Pascal's wager, he was commenting that you could be wrong about jesus and be tormented much more harshly than you think you will be escaping right now. There is a good chance Islam is truer than xtainity too. It's newer, perhaps god had forgotten to mention some things when Moses and jesus were around so he had to send old Mo' to set things straight again. It does seem god is quite forgetful at times.

 

The Muslim hell is worse? How so?

[mwc]

The Muslim hell is worse? How so?

It's full of xians.

 

mwc

[florduh]

Thanks, mwc, for the laugh of the day!

[rstrats]

florduh,

 

re: “Ah, Pascal's Wager. Again.”

 

 

And we know that the wager is invalid right from the start since it is based on the notion that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, which of course is impossible.

[Guest end3]

The Muslim hell is worse? How so?

It's full of xians.

 

mwc

 

 

You may well have a point MWC.....is Heaven full of the Christians that I know??? WTF!!! I have been deceived!!!!

[Skankboy]

To me, the belief in life after death is pure ego. It's that little part of our brain railling against the fact that the universe as a whole will not even notice when we're gone.

 

IMOHO,

[Abiyoyo]

Banking on the Rapture to hit before science gets that far, eh?

 

Well, moreso just saying that belief in afterlife within religion seems like a plausible notion.