Does Anyone Else Just Want To Scream Sometimes At The Sheer Ignorance Of It All?

[Arcane Lullabye]

How do you guys tolerate it when someone starts preaching at you? And how can you stand it when they make fallacious statements over and over again as if they were 100% positive that they were absolute truth? I'm really having a hard time with this.

 

I was posting something in another forum on another website, and the original topic wasn't about Christianity. Somehow, two people started getting all religious on me and I'm finding it very difficult not to start some sort of debate. Is there any way I can handle this politely without being totally insulting? I don't want it to become a debate because it would be too off-topic. Why can't Christians just learn to keep their religion to themselves?

 

I hope our society will become less ignorant as time goes on.

 

P.S Please forgive me if I have any grammatical errors. I didn't get any sleep last night.

[florduh]

Why can't Christians just learn to keep their religion to themselves?

 

Because of the "Great Commission." It's a basic requirement that good Christians spread the Good News. It's their job.

 

I won't debate or argue anymore. Depending on my mood and my relationship with the person, I might say to them that I just don't share their belief or perhaps tell them that my study of the Bible, history, science, philosophy and my efforts to be a good Christian have led me to a different conclusion.

 

One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

If you can control your emotions, you will do better in any debates that arise. I found in the past that I always got flustered over simple confrontations because I was in high-gear emotionally. All my clever reasoning went out the window and I wasn't able to articulate a simple thought-provoking response. I'm surrounded by fundys at work and my friends are also believers, so I expect to get a lot more practice soon.

 

But on a forum topic, if they start going astray, you can ask them to stay on topic or start a new thread.

[Jane of the Jungle]

......I might say to them that I just don't share their belief or perhaps tell them that my study of the Bible, history, science, philosophy and my efforts to be a good Christian have led me to a different conclusion.

 

One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders.

 

Good idea Florduh I'll keep that in mind, yeh and you're likely not to see the end of that specific discussion "in your lifetime" hey!

Cause who's going to allow the other party to take the winnings lol

[Arcane Lullabye]

Oh, yeah...I forgot about "Great Commission." It's easy to forget that they're not just being annoying and that they feel they have a job to do.

 

I won't debate or argue anymore. Depending on my mood and my relationship with the person, I might say to them that I just don't share their belief or perhaps tell them that my study of the Bible, history, science, philosophy and my efforts to be a good Christian have led me to a different conclusion.

 

I admire your way of dealing with these matters. I hope I get to a point where I can be that casual about it.

 

One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders.

 

You're right, of course...this is precisely what's driving me up the wall.

 

 

Fuego, the very same thing happens to me sometimes.

 

I guess I'm just irritated that these evangelicals just keep popping up out of nowhere with all their preaching.

[par4dcourse]

One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders.

Gawd committed suicide to appease himself for a species he created himself breaking rules he made himself, and I'm supposed to worship his ass forever for it.

When they start a conversation with rock solid logic like that and back it up with unarguable proof (cause d' babble says so) there's little to argue with.

[Mriana]

On the net I'm fine, but in person, I don't have a voice and crawl into my shell. Of course, this also depends on the type of religious person too- Someone with views like Spong, I do just as well face to face as I do on the net, but someone who is more delusional, potentially imposing, and/or Fundamgelical, that's when I crawl into myself and hide. That sort of paralyzing fear has been lifelong and I'm not sure how to overcome it. I won't debate anyone in person, but via the written word, esp if I can have access to my various references and resources, I'm fine. Good to go.

 

There is one woman another board who I've been going around with for months. Why months? She has to take a break... probably to talk to someone about how to respond. Anyway, she told someone the other day, something like, "Once you get into a debate with Mriana, there is no winning". I don't believe I'm that good, but by her own admission, she can't trump me (BTW, no matter what I say or present to her, she isn't going to stop believing in God, because she took a vow never to stop believing Yes she is delusional as hell) . We were in a religious debate, the person to told this to I was/am in a different sort of debate with.

 

One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders.

 

Why not? I do it all the time. They might not hear me, but others might. That it the thing about such discussion and debate, it's not just the two of you reading the forum. So while they are throwing out Bible verses alone, you can be throwing out various other books and texts that actually educate people. Heck, Valerie even got a plug once during my debate with this person.

[Vigile]

One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders.

 

I agree in general that is true and I tend to take your advice and avoid debating, if only for the fact that I don't tolerate numskulls very well. I do, however, think that it is possible to get through to some people. I actually made it 22 years before I heard anyone dispute xianity from a rational perspective. At the time I was sold out to the hilt. I met the guy while I was street witnessing no less. When he started picking apart the bible showing me a few simple contradictions I actually listened and soaked it in while my church buddies grew belligerent and just started quoting him random verses as if they held some sort of magical power. I found myself defending the guy to my buddies.

 

So while I don't intend to be an evangelist for deconversion I do wish someone would have pointed out a few things to me while I was younger. It would have saved me a few years that I could have used to get laid.

[Guest Marty]

The way I see it is, if they bring it up, I have the right to refute it. I try to never bring up religion in mixed company, but if someone starts blathering on, I will not hesitate to speak up.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

... At the time I was sold out to the hilt. I met the guy while I was street witnessing no less. When he started picking apart the bible showing me a few simple contradictions I actually listened and soaked it in while my church buddies grew belligerent and just started quoting him random verses as if they held some sort of magical power. I found myself defending the guy to my buddies.

 

So while I don't intend to be an evangelist for deconversion I do wish someone would have pointed out a few things to me while I was younger. It would have saved me a few years that I could have used to get laid.

This is the main reason I will agree to discuss (but not debate) religion with theists as long as we can keep it civil. There are many hard-core christians who are fertile ground for seeds of reason due to doubts they may already have, etc.

[ShallowByThyGame]

It is unlikely that you will see the fruits of your efforts, but you may put a crack in their foundation that begins the end. I wonder if anyone here used to argue with nonbelievers and eventually lost their faith.

[Mriana]

It is unlikely that you will see the fruits of your efforts, but you may put a crack in their foundation that begins the end. I wonder if anyone here used to argue with nonbelievers and eventually lost their faith.

 

No, I didn't, but then again, I grew up knowing at least one atheist and I loved talking to him too much to ruin a good thing with something I really didn't quite grasp.

[Kuroikaze]

It is unlikely that you will see the fruits of your efforts, but you may put a crack in their foundation that begins the end. I wonder if anyone here used to argue with nonbelievers and eventually lost their faith.

 

I used to all the time. I can't really speak to weather or not my deconversion had anything to do with those debates but it is possible.

[Arcane Lullabye]

It is unlikely that you will see the fruits of your efforts, but you may put a crack in their foundation that begins the end.

 

It seems like no external source can make a believer change his or her mind. The change has got to come from within. If a person tells his or her self that they must believe, they will...even in defiance of logic. It's like they're doing that thing that little kids do and covering their ears, saying, "Lalalala...I can't hear you!"

 

I was guilty of similar behavior as a Christian. I tried to avoid reading material that could "pollute my mind" by revealing the truth about my religion. It really was pretty childish now that I look back on it. Somewhere inside, I knew it couldn't be true (or at least not all true), but I was too scared to admit it. It was like playing a game of make-believe, except I couldn't admit to myself that it wasn't real. So, what florduh says is true..."One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders." The god-bots have to remove their own blinders...we can't do it for them. We can plant the seed of doubt, but maybe unless the "soil" is right, it won't take root.

 

Few of the opposing arguments ever really got through to me when I was a believer. Or maybe they got through on some level, but they just lingered in my subconscious until my conscious mind decided to do something about them. Deep down, I knew they made more sense than my belief, but I wouldn't allow myself to examine them more closely.

 

Every once in a while, I would come across a verse in the Bible that troubled me and I would scramble to find some sort of "reasonable" explanation for it by searching the apologetics websites (Christian apologetics...They should apologize! Lol - The thought popped into my head and I couldn't resist making a bad joke). My frantic search wouldn't cease until I came across an explanation that satisfied me. It got to the point where I wouldn't let myself read the Bible without studying what the apologetics websites had to say about the problematic verses beforehand. How pathetic is that? I wouldn't read it without giving other people a chance to make excuses for it first!

 

It wasn't until I started thinking it over for myself that I started to break through the shell. One day, it was like a light bulb turned on and I could see the problems with Christianity more clearly.

 

Perhaps I should be a tad more lenient when dealing with these people, seeing how I used to be one of them. However, my past as a Christian somehow only serves to make the situation feel more annoying. It's just so frustrating. I feel like telling them to wake up. Maybe it's because I only de-converted a few months ago (not long before Christmas, in fact). Maybe I need more time to come to terms with all this stuff.

 

...Or maybe I just have PMS.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. Majorly. I do that sometimes. I hope I wasn't too incoherent - I'm running on no sleep again...I slept during the day yesterday, but had a sleepless night.

 

P.S I wouldn't mind having a go at refuting what some of these Christians say, but I doubt they'd be too happy about it. They would think I was being rude. It's like they think they deserve special treatment because of their beliefs, and yet they'll go out of their way to attack the beliefs of others. And you're right, Vigile - It's like they think these verses have magical power and just saying or typing them should be enough to magically change your mind.

 

*falls asleep*

[Arcane Lullabye]

OMG. I can't believe I made such a long and rambly post. *facepalm*

[Neon Genesis]

I agree with what you said Arcane about change coming from within, but I think one benefit that could come from debating with xtians is that anyone who's doubting their faith that's reading it can see how weak their arguments are and can get a sort of reinforcement from seeing the xtians being torn to shreds. I know for me at least that while my deconversion came from within, I felt more assured from reading the debates here at ex-c and learning more about the bible. But I agree with others that for the most part, it's pointless to debate with them, which is why I don't bother going to fundie forums. If I debate with them, I usually just do it either here or at other atheist forums. If you don't want to get into a debate with the xtians at the site, maybe you could try just asking them to stay on topic and that you don't want to go off into an off-topic discussion?

[Vigile]

I agree with what you said Arcane about change coming from within, but I think one benefit that could come from debating with xtians is that anyone who's doubting their faith that's reading it can see how weak their arguments are and can get a sort of reinforcement from seeing the xtians being torn to shreds.

 

In addition, not all xians are close minded. I was an open minded xian. I just didn't have anyone give me an argument against it that I could process until into my early 20s. I truly wanted truth. I thought I had truth but I thought that truth could stand up to reasoning and alternative ideas. When I was faced with contradictions that house of cards began to fall. Maybe today with the internet and prominent rationality books out there the herd has already been thinned of those like me who just believed because it made the most sense based on the available info in their small little worlds, but who knows?

 

I also think that many xians are not just closed to testing their faith against reality, they truly just aren't able to. I've noticed a lot of people stumble on the simplest forms of logic.

 

A related side story:

 

I was attending a Baptist church for a while that had what I thought was a very charismatic pastor. His sermons moved me much more so than the sermons in the Nazarene church I grew up in. I thought this meant that god was really working through him. I had a roommate at the time who was also a member of this church. He mentioned to me once how much he disliked this pastor. This surprised me and I told him how I felt during his sermons.

 

My roommate told me that his father was also a pastor and then he went on to explain to me the practiced methods that this preacher used to evoke the type of crowd reaction he got. In a nutshell, he would start off soft and caring, then he would climax with emotion and anger then at the end he would bring it back down again as if he were giving the audience a hug (sounds kind of like angry sex). In other words, he would gain your trust, break you, and then rebuild you.

 

Once he told me this, I started to pay attention and realized he was spot on. After a few weeks I couldn't take it anymore. I was sitting there week after week getting angrier and angrier at his manipulative methods until I finally just threw in the towel and gave up church altogether.

[defygravity]

I agree with what you said Arcane about change coming from within, but I think one benefit that could come from debating with xtians is that anyone who's doubting their faith that's reading it can see how weak their arguments are and can get a sort of reinforcement from seeing the xtians being torn to shreds. I know for me at least that while my deconversion came from within, I felt more assured from reading the debates here at ex-c and learning more about the bible. But I agree with others that for the most part, it's pointless to debate with them, which is why I don't bother going to fundie forums. If I debate with them, I usually just do it either here or at other atheist forums. If you don't want to get into a debate with the xtians at the site, maybe you could try just asking them to stay on topic and that you don't want to go off into an off-topic discussion?

 

I agree, too that it has to come from with in because that is how it started with me. I never really debated because I was never really a full fledged born again Christian (aka go-bot), I was just raised in it and lived like I was to satisfy my mom. However, personal tragedy is what broke me open to actually reject it. And for someone like me who was born into it it's been a long struggle and it's still going. I am learning a lot on how to handle the possible "coming out" as a non-Christian to my mom if that ever happens, LOL, from here! At least I have my dh, my brother and SIL and some friends who all feel the same way as I do. They still have their own belief systems, like my SIL is Wiccan. I would love to see my mom if she ever finds that out... well maybe not... Wicca=evil witchcraft to my mom.

I won't be a debater, though unless someone is very, very pushy. I, too, can become too emotional, though so I am working on that.

[Vomit Comet]

I was guilty of similar behavior as a Christian. I tried to avoid reading material that could "pollute my mind" by revealing the truth about my religion. It really was pretty childish now that I look back on it. Somewhere inside, I knew it couldn't be true (or at least not all true), but I was too scared to admit it. It was like playing a game of make-believe, except I couldn't admit to myself that it wasn't real. So, what florduh says is true..."One can't debate a god-bot who is brainwashed and wearing blinders." The god-bots have to remove their own blinders...we can't do it for them. We can plant the seed of doubt, but maybe unless the "soil" is right, it won't take root.

 

My defenses were pretty good. I remember reading articles in magazines by Sam Harris and thinking "what an asshole." Also, years before in grad school, they made us read a big pile of Nietzshe. I read through the whole thing, and at the end I laughed. "So this is the philosopher that declared 'God is Dead'? Is this the best that satan has? Ha!" Same thing after reading Feuerbach and Sartre and all those other German and French guys. (I never got exposed much to Anglo-American philosophy. Mainly just the continental stuff.) Well, what I failed to realize at the time was that Nietzsche wasn't trying to kill God, he was simply remarking that God was already dead. "We Europeans killed him." Atheism was widespread in Europe for decades by then, thanks to Darwin. Also, he wasn't trying to debunk Christianity so much as detail how much it sucked, comparing it to the paganism it had replaced, etc.

 

I wasn't a Young Earther, either. I even believed in evolution, except in the case of humans. Sure, there was homo-proto-erectus-neanderthal-man that were kind of human-like, but I figured that homo sapiens (Adam and Eve, no less) magically appeared in the Ethiopian Highlands with the wave of the Sky Daddy's hand, with no direct ape-like ancestors at all.

 

What about hell? After reading the "Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis, I came to the conclusion that hell wasn't that bad and that there was the possibility that some could find their way out of it and whatnot. So the whole fire and brimstone thing wasn't so much a factor.

 

At any rate, it wasn't until I felt like I was getting the shaft from God, that God was doing a shitty job with the church and with the world in general, and that the strictures of fundamentalism (particularly the 'no sex' part) really fucking sucked that I started to get disgruntled and disaffected enough to flirt with danger.

[Mriana]

C. S. Lewis was a joke! He professed atheism when he wasn't a Xian, but I question that. I do not believe he ever was an atheist.

[Guest DD2014]

Quote scripture that is contraditory

 

example:

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not kill."

 

Then quote anything that contradicts that scripture. If you really want to get under their skin use the ones that are particularly nasty.

 

Like killing children:

Ezekiel 9:5-7, Jeremiah 51:20-26, Isaiah 13:15-18, 1 Samuel 15:2-3, Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18,

 

Trust me you'll find plenty of ammo.

[Mriana]

Oh but then there is excuse- the O.T. is obsolete, Jesus said so. um no that isn't what is written in the NT.

[Guest Marty]

Jesus never said that. In fact he said that not one letter of the law can be changed until the end of the world. I think it was in Luke, possibly in Matthew too. I can't look it up until tomorrow...I love throwing that back at the xtians, they never know what to say to that!

[Mriana]

Jesus never said that. In fact he said that not one letter of the law can be changed until the end of the world. I think it was in Luke, possibly in Matthew too. I can't look it up until tomorrow...I love throwing that back at the xtians, they never know what to say to that!

 

That is precisely what I mean when I say "That's not what is written."

[Neon Genesis]

C. S. Lewis was a joke! He professed atheism when he wasn't a Xian, but I question that. I do not believe he ever was an atheist.

And now it seems like every xtian and their dog claims they were a former atheist but they usually end up having no clue what atheism is.