Contradiction Of Salvation By Grace

[Guest end3]

The gift isn't free, it requires human works in order for salvation to be granted.

If the human doesn't take specific affirmative actions, they don't get saved.

That it requires human "works" (i.e. you accept and believe what God has done in Christ), doesn't mean the gift isn't free.

Sounds like the same redefinition of the word over the last couple of years in the software industry. Free software used to mean that you got it, and you could use it, unlimited time, and didn't have to pay for it--ever. But nowadays it means "limited demo version, which only works for 30 days." Then you have to cough up the money.

 

Is there any word today which means "unconditionally free--yours without any string attached or actions your part required?"

 

These are some of the definitions of the word free:

not subject to or constrained by engagements or obligations : she spent her free time shopping.

given or available without charge : free health care.

using or expending something without restraint; lavish : she was always free with her money.

 

So is grace really free in this sense?

 

Every time I have extended grace to someone, it was without cost to that individual.....no?

 

Edit: Of course it's always God's fault...He put the free gift there, but we are blaming him for how it is accepted.....gheez.

[Ouroboros]

Every time I have extended grace to someone, it was without cost to that individual.....no?

Exactly. Isn't that what "free" really should mean? That's my point. Unconditional.

 

Did the person you extended your grace towards have to do something to receive it? Or did you forgive and forget regardless if they accepted it or not? Or did they have to stand on one leg, sing cumbaya, and flail their arms, before you could forgive them or give them grace? Most likely not. Right? So if we humans can understand the concept of unconditional love, grace, and forgiveness, why is even "belief" in such gifts necessary? There's one Bible verse that hints that all humanity is saved and forgiven in Christ. Meaning, there's nothing more to it. Belief, faith, all that extra, isn't necessary for it to be given. We are forgiven in Christ.

 

Perhaps the better way of seeing it is that we are forgiven, but faith/belief is necessary only to transform into a more God-like person? In other words, only through the Holy Spook and the help from God can a person also become more God-like, but we are all, regardless of how we act, forgiven and go to Heaven at the end. We don't have to be God-like to go to Heaven, because we're already forgiven. The sin is gone, for everyone. Can you see how this Universal view makes a lot more sense?

 

Edit: Of course it's always God's fault...He put the free gift there, but we are blaming him for how it is accepted.....gheez.

So when you forgive someone, if they do not respond with "I accept your forgiveness," then you take it back?

 

Sorry, but that's not unconditional.

[Guest end3]

Exactly. Isn't that what "free" really should mean? That's my point. Unconditional.

 

I don't think we know

 

Did the person you extended your grace towards have to do something to receive it?

 

Typically they have warranted grace by being an ass.

 

Or did you forgive and forget regardless if they accepted it or not?

 

I try to forget and forgiveness is rare.

 

Or did they have to stand on one leg, sing cumbaya, and flail their arms, before you could forgive them or give them grace? Most likely not. Right?

 

Yes

 

So if we humans can understand the concept of unconditional love, grace, and forgiveness, why is even "belief" in such gifts necessary There's one Bible verse that hints that all humanity is saved and forgiven in Christ. Meaning, there's nothing more to it. Belief, faith, all that extra, isn't necessary for it to be given. We are forgiven in Christ.

 

Thank you

 

Perhaps the better way of seeing it is that we are forgiven, but faith/belief is necessary only to transform into a more God-like person? In other words, only through the Holy Spook and the help from God can a person also become more God-like, but we are all, regardless of how we act, forgiven and go to Heaven at the end. We don't have to be God-like to go to Heaven, because we're already forgiven. The sin is gone, for everyone. Can you see how this Universal view makes a lot more sense?

 

I can see the point, but I can see the futility of the argument made that it is not free....

 

So when you forgive someone, if they do not respond with "I accept your forgiveness," then you take it back?

 

I rarely forgive, you?

[Ouroboros]

I rarely forgive, you?

I forgive people a lot. I mean, really a huge amount, and all the time. That's one thing you probably don't know about me, but whatever people do to me directly, I forgive, unconditionally. Even all the abuse, rude, and stupid comments being directed against me on this forum from Christians (or non-Christians alike). Only if someone threatens or use rude language to my wife or my kids will I put them in the no-forgiveness list. And then, there's nothing they can do, ever, to be taken off it.

 

When I forgive, I do it silently, and without any demands. I don't require them to thank me on a daily basis, or fall down on their knees and worship me for doing so. I forgive, and that's it. They don't even know it. That's fully and completely unconditional.

 

I don't hold grudges against anyone, not even you End. But I noticed that Christians tend to have an ax to grind with everyone who ever did anything "wrong" to them. I have noticed that the most forgiving people are those who do not take religion too seriously, while those who take it hardcore do have a problem to forgive.

 

Also, I love my kids unconditionally. They don't have to do anything to receive my love. However, if they do wrong, I correct them, and sometimes they lose privileges, but they never lose my love. If they adjust, they are given the privileges back. So I don't give them an eternal Hell for one mistake, or for not thanking me for forgiving them. So my love is totally unconditional and free.

 

So maybe I'm more Christ-like than God himself?

[Guest end3]

I don't hold grudges against anyone, not even you End. But I noticed that Christians tend to have an ax to grind with everyone who ever did anything "wrong" to them. I have noticed that the most forgiving people are those who do not take religion too seriously, while those who take it hardcore do have a problem to forgive.

 

It does say that he came to save the lost? If your concept or practice is acceptable, would it make sense that you are lost?

 

If they adjust, they are given the privileges back. So I don't give them an eternal Hell for one mistake, or for not thanking me for forgiving them.

 

Is your example not like the old law and the new covenant? Adjust to what, good, lack of evil?....When they adust? If they don't, are they in Hans-hell forever?

 

So maybe I'm more Christ-like than God himself?

 

I would say God-like....

[Ouroboros]

It does say that he came to save the lost? If your concept or practice is acceptable, would it make sense that you are lost?

Not sure what you mean?

 

If they adjust, they are given the privileges back. So I don't give them an eternal Hell for one mistake, or for not thanking me for forgiving them.

 

Is your example not like the old law and the new covenant? Adjust to what, good, lack of evil?....When they adust? If they don't, are they in Hans-hell forever?

I'm not giving them Hell at all. Not even temporary. They just lose privileges. For instance, if TV interferes with school, they lose the TV. I don't put them in a burning furnace for a bad grade.

 

So the answer is, they never get Hell. The punishment is losing benefits, not losing their rights. If you know the difference. For instance, candy is a benefit, while food is a right. Breathing air is a right, while playing computer games is a privilege. You get the difference?

 

So I don't starve them, suffocated them, or burn them, when they do wrong. They just lose the nice stuff they can do without. The carrots, so to speak.

 

Plus of course, I have long talks with them, explaining why it was wrong what they did. And that is the only "Hell" they get.

[Looking4Answers]

The problem is all in dogma/doctrine. What one believes determines what the Bible says and rarely the other way around. Therefore, if one comes to believe that one MUST be baptized in order to be saved, then one will see that teaching clearly in the Bible. His belief will drive what the Bible says. Verses that seem to contradict that belief will be worked with, re-interpreted and compared until a reason can be extended to them that helps them fit into the already conceived belief system.

 

If one believes in faith alone, through grace alone, then the same thing applies. The belief will drive the interpretation. So the person that rejects the concept of baptism being integral to salvation will encounter Acts 2:38:

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

... and they will wiggle and squirm and work with that verse until Peter is telling the gathered crowds that they only need to repent and that baptism logically follows belief. Again, this is based on the belief system ... the dogma ... and not on the totality of the teachings of the Scriptures. Note on the verse I just quoted: Peter never tells them to believe! Only to repent and be baptized. Hmmmm ...

 

Then there are those that believe that someone needs to do good works in order to be found acceptable in the sight of god. Again, it is the belief that drives the interpretation of the Bible. When they encounter Ephesians 2:8-9 they will wiggle, squirm and work with the verse until they find an acceptable way of understanding it that fits into their already preconceived concepts of salvation.

 

This happens with just about every belief in Christianity. It does not matter if the belief is in transubstantiation or the communion. It does not matter if it is an argument on Bible versions (KJV only, anyone?). It won't matter if one wants to discuss the nuances of sanctification, justification or even eschatology. First the doctrine is determined and then the Scripture is forced into this mold.

 

So you can go ahead and describe grace and the free gift all you want. You can wiggle and squirm and find ways of making this concept, that concept or some verse work within your already accepted form of understanding (your dogma or doctrine). You can do that. Anyone can and, frankly, that's what everyone seems to be doing in their own religious circles. But the facts may be quite different. It is plain that the Bible is contradictory in the area that is considered most important: How one becomes right with god! Everyone is saved! No one is saved! You need to do this to be saved! No, you need to do nothing to be saved because god chooses whom he pleases! No, you need to believe! No, you need to attend only our church! No, you need to partake of the Eucharist! No, you need to attend holy mass! No, you need to be baptized! No, not just baptized, but baptized in running (living) waters! No, you need to be baptized in the name of Jesus! No, you need to be baptized in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit! No, you need to be dunked! No, you need to be dunked three times! No, pouring is the accepted method! No, sprinkling is what god commands! No, you have to refrain from work on the sabbath! No, no, no, no NO!

 

I say NO to the Bible and to those that follow it, having the arrogance to say they know how to be made right with god when even the Bible, the supposed word of god, contradicts its own self and is not at all clear on the matter.

[Guest end3]

It does say that he came to save the lost? If your concept or practice is acceptable, would it make sense that you are lost?

Not sure what you mean?

 

If they adjust, they are given the privileges back. So I don't give them an eternal Hell for one mistake, or for not thanking me for forgiving them.

 

Is your example not like the old law and the new covenant? Adjust to what, good, lack of evil?....When they adust? If they don't, are they in Hans-hell forever?

I'm not giving them Hell at all. Not even temporary. They just lose privileges. For instance, if TV interferes with school, they lose the TV. I don't put them in a burning furnace for a bad grade.

 

So the answer is, they never get Hell. The punishment is losing benefits, not losing their rights. If you know the difference. For instance, candy is a benefit, while food is a right. Breathing air is a right, while playing computer games is a privilege. You get the difference?

 

So I don't starve them, suffocated them, or burn them, when they do wrong. They just lose the nice stuff they can do without. The carrots, so to speak.

 

Plus of course, I have long talks with them, explaining why it was wrong what they did. And that is the only "Hell" they get.

 

I don't think it was hard to grasp that I was speaking symbolically. You then turned hell to the literal. The principle is the same. You withhold, punish, etc. until they believe and act as you would have them.

[Ouroboros]

I don't think it was hard to grasp that I was speaking symbolically. You then turned hell to the literal. The principle is the same. You withhold, punish, etc. until they believe and act as you would have them.

I think there's a huge difference between the Biblical concept of Hell, and just removing toys. According to the Bible, God doesn't educate us or teach us to behave correctly by removing toys or explaining things, but by threatening by eternal hellfire. It is a huge difference. Unless you vehemently deny Hell to exist. This is the reason why the Bible-God with the Eternal-Hell idea is so wrong. Because that view of God is immoral and inhumane. If humans can act more humane and good than Bible-God, then I think the Bible-God idea should be either revised or removed. And no, it was not obvious that you were talking about a literal or figurative hell. Hell, as a Christian concept, is eternal, how can I as a human apply eternal "hell" on my kids?

[Guest end3]

I think there's a huge difference between the Biblical concept of Hell, and just removing toys. According to the Bible, God doesn't educate us or teach us to behave correctly by removing toys or explaining things, but by threatening by eternal hellfire.

 

Bullshit....I will send a Helper.....remember that?

 

It is a huge difference. Unless you vehemently deny Hell to exist.

 

Who among us can agree on hell Hans???? I bet you money all of us can define it figuratively and some literally. Does this match what God has in mind? I don't know.

 

This is the reason why the Bible-God with the Eternal-Hell idea is so wrong.

 

If it is so wrong, quit practicing your method of punishment and let them go....then report to me what happens

 

And no, it was not obvious that you were talking about a literal or figurative hell. Hell, as a Christian concept, is eternal, how can I as a human apply eternal "hell" on my kids?

 

 

They were your own words.....I take away their priviliges "until"......until as defined by you!

[Ouroboros]

Bullshit....I will send a Helper.....remember that?

Bullshit, he doesn't talk at all. It's all in the mind. Hearing voices is a mental disorder.

 

Who among us can agree on hell Hans???? I bet you money all of us can define it figuratively and some literally. Does this match what God has in mind? I don't know.

Ask your Helper. (see above)

 

This is the reason why the Bible-God with the Eternal-Hell idea is so wrong.

 

If it is so wrong, quit practicing your method of punishment and let them go....then report to me what happens

Eh? Obviously you don't get it.

 

There's a difference between eternal hell-fire and torture and taking away privileges. I already explained that. And it seems you don't understand that difference.

 

To be tortured for eternity isn't the same as losing candy, TV, or playing computer games. But it seems like you put them on the same level.

 

And no, it was not obvious that you were talking about a literal or figurative hell. Hell, as a Christian concept, is eternal, how can I as a human apply eternal "hell" on my kids?

 

They were your own words.....I take away their priviliges "until"......until as defined by you!

No, you said that it was obvious that you didn't talk about literal hell, but a figurative hell, and it wasn't obvious, and now you spin the counter argument to something else??? Are you acting stupid on purpose?

 

There's a difference to take away extra, unnecessary, luxury as a penalty, and to take away important and necessary things of life. I think you need to learn the difference of importance of things in life. Maybe you've been spoiled rotten and you consider toys as necessary for sustaining your life? Then you sound like the spoiled kid of Orange County who cry when they their parents won't by them a new Mercedes in birthday present.

Are you seriously considering taking away the TV privileges from a kid the same as dosing them in gasoline and lit them up? You really need to start thinking about what you're saying, because you do are now arguing them to be the same...

 

Think about it. God, as punishment, put a person in ETERNITY in a prison for doing wrong. How can they learn? How can they fix it? How can they get out? How can they ever be restored? What purpose does it have? Why does God consider that justice? Why does God consider that grace? What is so good about putting people in prison for infinite time, and only for not saying "thank you for forgiving me." To me it sounds like God is a narcissistic megalomaniac. I forgive unconditional, God has to be thanked before he forgives you.

[Looking4Answers]

Bullshit....I will send a Helper.....remember that?

 

The Helper ... the paraclete ... was promised to those that believe, not to those that do not believe. So the Helper cannot be a part of the discussion here since Hans was arguing about the punishment of Hell, which the Bible says the believer is saved from. So for the unbeliever, the one not saved, the only thing offered is a message of turn or burn! This is not how a father would treat a child. So it seems quite apparent that we poor, sinful humans know better how to treat our children and each other than the supposed heavenly father.

 

We show more mercy than he does. We are more forgiving than he is. We extend a better, cleaner grace than he does. And this is drawn from reading the supposed recorded actions of the Bible god as found within the pages of the Bible.

 

In any case, the Bible god is not real. The Helper is not real. Enjoy your delusion.

[Guest end3]

Bullshit, he doesn't talk at all. It's all in the mind.

 

He doesn't talk to you.

 

Eh? Obviously you don't get it.

 

And now you are too smart to get it.

 

To be tortured for eternity isn't the same as losing candy, TV, or playing computer games. But it seems like you put them on the same level.

 

It says a small sin is the same a large one

 

There's a difference to take away extra, unnecessary, luxury as a penalty, and to take away important and necessary things of life. I think you need to learn the difference of importance of things in life. Maybe you've been spoiled rotten and you consider toys as necessary for sustaining your life? Then you sound like the spoiled kid of Orange County who cry when they their parents won't by them a new Mercedes in birthday present.

Are you seriously considering taking away the TV privileges from a kid the same as dosing them in gasoline and lit them up? You really need to start thinking about what you're saying, because you do are now arguing them to be the same...

 

What is it you don't get??? A child might perceive hell as loss of candy, TV, etc. As an adult our version is eternal.

 

Pick your version of hell, and then let's talk. Right now, I see that you are picking a literal bonfire with demons shooting in and out picking on you without end....

 

Think about it. God, as punishment, put a person in ETERNITY in a prison for doing wrong. How can they learn? How can they fix it? How can they get out? How can they ever be restored? What purpose does it have? Why does God consider that justice? Why does God consider that grace? What is so good about putting people in prison for infinite time, and only for not saying "thank you for forgiving me." To me it sounds like God is a narcissistic megalomaniac. I forgive unconditional, God has to be thanked before he forgives you.

 

Why are you worried about it anyway. To you, when you are dead, you are dead. Why don't you go onto something else other than defending your

beliefs. Why aren't you actively spending your time living life now. You define living life on the computer telling people there is no God?

[Kathlene]

Ok. I am hoping this question is in the same spirit so to speak of this thread.

Can someone tell me, maybe a christian will know, what the difference is of say a Catholic or Anglican being baptised and saying yeah I accept this free gift and then doing absolutely nothing about it for the rest of their lives. Now in their mind they think they are a christian and fully believe they are going to heaven when they die because all they did was believe in this offer of grace of forgiveness. Now what's the difference between them and say a fullon gung-ho born-again christian like I used to be who got saved and then was on fire for god and lived an extreme so-call holy life. Now is it fair that the Catholic or whoever, gets to go to heaven for doing nothing and just believing once that yeah Im a christian, to another christian who dedicates their whole life to living for god in holiness, ministry, praying, worshipping, tithing, blah blah blah. I guess it all comes down to that old argument of who is a true christian. Also the argument of what if you are wrong, just believe anyway?

 

So is this offer of grace really a free gift? Do you have to show some sort of appreciation and thankfulness for it once you receive it? Thereby making you in effect do works to obtain the goal of heaven? In that case to be safe of some sort of eternal reward I might just go ahead and believe in allah, jesus and anyone else I can think of to get all my bases covered, if I don't have to do anything to get into heaven. Its all so ludicrous it's making my head spin.

[Ouroboros]

He doesn't talk to you.

Well, then we have yet another big difference between God's "education" and how I raise my kids. My kids hear me. I talk to them, even if they did wrong. That's the only way they can learn, by me talking and explaining to them. So here we have God, he goes quiet and shuts up just because we don't say "thank you for Jesus."

 

Eh? Obviously you don't get it.

 

And now you are too smart to get it.

It sure seems like it.

 

To be tortured for eternity isn't the same as losing candy, TV, or playing computer games. But it seems like you put them on the same level.

 

It says a small sin is the same a large one

Again... eh? So we're talking about sin now, not the act of receiving God's grace? So you're saying that sin is what keeps us away from God, but Jesus died for all our sins, and everyone's sins, but yet he didn't because we have to think that he did for it to work, but if we don't think it works then it doesn't work, because it is conditional on that we imagine it?!?

 

So it's not grace then from God that saves us, but our act of imagining it being a non-issue.

 

There's a difference to take away extra, unnecessary, luxury as a penalty, and to take away important and necessary things of life. I think you need to learn the difference of importance of things in life. Maybe you've been spoiled rotten and you consider toys as necessary for sustaining your life? Then you sound like the spoiled kid of Orange County who cry when they their parents won't by them a new Mercedes in birthday present.

Are you seriously considering taking away the TV privileges from a kid the same as dosing them in gasoline and lit them up? You really need to start thinking about what you're saying, because you do are now arguing them to be the same...

 

What is it you don't get??? A child might perceive hell as loss of candy, TV, etc. As an adult our version is eternal.

Right now, you are dumb. I don't know why, but you do act very stupid.

 

Again, for the 15th billionth time, there is a huge difference between taking away TV entertainment and burning someone for eternity. HUGE difference. And that you can't see the difference can probably only be blamed on how religion has stupefied your brain.

 

Pick your version of hell, and then let's talk. Right now, I see that you are picking a literal bonfire with demons shooting in and out picking on you without end....

So which version of Hell do you have?

 

What is it that God's grace is saving us from? From reduced TV privileges or from eternal torture?

 

Think about it. God, as punishment, put a person in ETERNITY in a prison for doing wrong. How can they learn? How can they fix it? How can they get out? How can they ever be restored? What purpose does it have? Why does God consider that justice? Why does God consider that grace? What is so good about putting people in prison for infinite time, and only for not saying "thank you for forgiving me." To me it sounds like God is a narcissistic megalomaniac. I forgive unconditional, God has to be thanked before he forgives you.

 

Why are you worried about it anyway. To you, when you are dead, you are dead. Why don't you go onto something else other than defending your

beliefs. Why aren't you actively spending your time living life now. You define living life on the computer telling people there is no God?

Oh, I see. I should leave this site where non-Christians meet and talk, just because a Christian comes in here and takes and argues stupid ideas? Yeah, that makes sense. I participate on this website BECAUSE the people here are NOT Christians. So really, you're the one that shouldn't be here.

 

You're asking me to socialize somewhere else, where I'm not going to defend my beliefs. Then why the FUCKING HELL are you here challenging them? If I go to website XYZ, someone like you would go there and argue HELL and FREE GRACE and I would have to defend my belief, and he would say, "blah blah blah, why are you so worried about it, live your life somewhere else, blah blah blah," and you and your kind would be chasing me around on every frigging website, because YOU are the one who came into THIS website.

 

I am in the right place. You are out of place. You are the one challenging OUR beliefs or lack thereof--IN OUR PLACE!!! Why are YOU worrying about this website? Why are YOU on this website arguing and demanding us to leave?

 

You're dumber than I thought. Seriously. If you keep this up, I will ban your ass, so we (who belong here) can go on with our worry free life in a non-Christian environment.

 

Besides, did I in any of these posts argue that there is no God? My argument is that if God exists, God is not like the Christian God, but something completely different. You're the one arguing for an incomprehensible, inconsistent, and immoral God, not me. I'm not arguing No-God, but I'm only arguing No-Christian-God-who's-full-of-immoral-and-inhumane-attributes.

 

You're about 3 seconds from being banned. Consider me God, and you being put in Hell. And that would be my free gift of grace to you.

[Guest end3]

If they adjust, they are given the privileges back.

 

Is this not what you said?

 

You, being the Father in this picture, dictate "adjust" or no privileges. And you set the time frame for the restoration of privileges? What if the child never adjusts? No more privileges for eternity? Is it possible that a child's hell is "loss of privileges"? Could be....ask a teenager without a cell phone.

 

Let's contrast that to God. As the Father, God says you don't have to "adjust" to get the full rights of sonship, privileges and all. There it is, the free gift.....that you didn't have to purchase....(and let's not go into semantics). Now, whether you accept the gift is free will in my book, as I am not aware of predestination in my life. You? But, knowing the result, as a loving Father, he tells you the consequences of not accepting the gift.....hell. Now I understand in my "stupid" brain as you call it Hans, that we don't all agree on hell. As an adult, I am understanding that as separation from Love, something I think we can all identify with. There are many takes on hell. Burning fire as additional refinement. Also, I have heard "age lasting as opposed to "eternity".

 

You are saying that small sins are less severe than are large and that God should not take away our "rights", but just take away our privileges? Can you define that for us Hans...God's definition for the rights of humanity vs privileges.

 

Ban me if you wish, but don't blame me for a perspective you cannot see nor imagine.

[Ouroboros]

If they adjust, they are given the privileges back.

 

Is this not what you said?

 

You, being the Father in this picture, dictate "adjust" or no privileges. And you set the time frame for the restoration of privileges? What if the child never adjusts? No more privileges for eternity? Is it possible that a child's hell is "loss of privileges"? Could be....ask a teenager without a cell phone.

You don't know what the difference is between "privilege" and "necessary." I think that's the crux. You need to learn the difference.

 

Let's contrast that to God. As the Father, God says you don't have to "adjust" to get the full rights of sonship, privileges and all. There it is, the free gift.....that you didn't have to purchase....(and let's not go into semantics). Now, whether you accept the gift is free will in my book, as I am not aware of predestination in my life. You? But, knowing the result, as a loving Father, he tells you the consequences of not accepting the gift.....hell. Now I understand in my "stupid" brain as you call it Hans, that we don't all agree on hell. As an adult, I am understanding that as separation from Love, something I think we can all identify with. There are many takes on hell. Burning fire as additional refinement. Also, I have heard "age lasting as opposed to "eternity".

Did you ask you "Helper" yet?

 

Either you didn't, because you know you won't get an answer, or you tried, and didn't get an answer. So what did the "Helper" tell you?

 

You are saying that small sins are less severe than are large and that God should not take away our "rights", but just take away our privileges? Can you define that for us Hans...God's definition for the rights of humanity vs privileges.

What we are comparing is:

 

God gave forgiveness, which only will apply if I believe in it, and say thank you. If I don't believe it, or if I don't say thank you, God's "free" gift is not given to me. That's what this topic is about. Grace as a "free" gift, and the question if "free" is the same as conditional or unconditional. So what does "sin" has to do with it? Are you saying that if I don't believe in the grace, or if I don't say thank you to God for it, then I'm sinning? Does this mean that the grace didn't cover that? So this means that this grace does not cover all sins, since the unbelief in this grace is an unforgivable sin which this grace does not cover. If it did cover it, and if it was free, then we would not have to believe or thank God for it, to receive it.

 

Ban me if you wish, but don't blame me for a perspective you cannot see nor imagine.

And don't blame me for being on a website where non-Christians meet up. And then have the audacity to tell me I should go and get a life somewhere else. In other words, you tell me to go to another website where you are not. You came here. You are the one arguing against people here. Not me. You came here. I belong here. You don't belong here. So don't tell people who belong here, to go somewhere else.

 

And don't blame me for not understanding the concepts I'm bringing in here. Because the discussion here is between non-Christian and non-Christian, and you demand to be heard, and you demand me to find another place. This IS my place, and the place for people like me. You're the outsider, so do NOT demand anything from those who belong here.

 

I'm putting you on a 7 day moderator-preview. Which means your posts have to be approved before they become visible to the rest.

[Looking4Answers]

Ok. I am hoping this question is in the same spirit so to speak of this thread.

Can someone tell me, maybe a christian will know, what the difference is of say a Catholic or Anglican being baptised and saying yeah I accept this free gift and then doing absolutely nothing about it for the rest of their lives. Now in their mind they think they are a christian and fully believe they are going to heaven when they die because all they did was believe in this offer of grace of forgiveness. Now what's the difference between them and say a fullon gung-ho born-again christian like I used to be who got saved and then was on fire for god and lived an extreme so-call holy life. Now is it fair that the Catholic or whoever, gets to go to heaven for doing nothing and just believing once that yeah Im a christian, to another christian who dedicates their whole life to living for god in holiness, ministry, praying, worshipping, tithing, blah blah blah. I guess it all comes down to that old argument of who is a true christian. Also the argument of what if you are wrong, just believe anyway?

 

Hello Kathlene,

 

The difference is really one of dogma/church doctrine and not really one of the Bible, in my opinion. It is how a particular denomination interprets and understands these doctrines. From my understanding, the baptism of a catholic only places them on the road to salvation. It gives them a chance at salvation. But they can slip off this road at any time. Their ultimate destination may indeed be heaven, but Catholics have the added concept of purgatory (sort of a temporary hell in which to be purified before being allowed entrance into heaven). Apparently you can shave off years in purgatory by your good works, attending mass (the more the merrier, etc) and doing other things prescribed by the church. So the baptism of the Catholic church is a bit different than the belief of the Protestant (for example).

 

Within the Protestant circles, you have a variety of beliefs concerning works or no works. Some believe there are things that need to be done (be baptized, etc) in order to be saved and others accept only faith/belief as the requirement. But the mantra seems to be that it is god that saves and, as such, there is nothing that man can do to loose it. If god saves, then god also keeps. And since the Bible states that god will complete the good work which he has begun in the believer (Philippians 1:6) then the belief is that salvation is that which was begun and that which will be completed ... all a work of god.

 

So what it comes down to is that all these various sects argue over what is what when it comes to this doctrine or that dogma. They cherry pick their Bibles and adhere to the verses that speak toward what they already believe. And to convoluted things to make the one's out of sync fit into their system.

 

It's not about fair, Kathlene. It never was. Its about control. And each sect has their own means of controlling the masses. With the Catholic church it is the church itself (i.e. if you are not a member of the Catholic church there is no guarantee of heaven) and the mass (which, if taken frequently, can reduce your time spent in purgatory). With the Protestants it's the concept of scaring people into making sure they are saved and then getting them to demonstrate their salvation by their good works. After all, you can tell a tree by its fruit! No good works indicates no holy spirit within! So alter calls are made frequently to give people a chance to repent and get right with god.

 

Fear. It is the #1 motivating factor. The church, despite their insistence on love and grace and mercy, is really all about fear and fear of the worst kind. And they have become so brainwashed into believing that it is actually love that they do not seem to really know how afraid they are. A case in point is this thread. Badger and end3 talk about hell, compare it to a parent taking away TV, and it doesn't even register in their minds what they are saying. This, to me, would be like sitting down and having a casual conversation with a mass murderer about how to kill numerous people in horrible ways and doing so with very little emotion ... as if this is OK and normal.

[Dagan]

This thread has been very helpful for me, thanks everyone. It's helped me put into words thoughts I've had about this theology for some time.

 

For a long time since I really started losing my faith, the first thing that bothered me most was all the verses about doubting and unbelief. I had believed that once I was saved, I was always saved, but that is not consistent, or clearly outlined. You'd think something important like that, God might want to make it clear.

 

But just now, while I was looking for verses about doubt, this one popped out. It's from Romans 14. Paul has just finished explaining why Jewish purity laws don't matter anymore, but he tacks a caveat on to it:

 

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

 

So... if I believe it's a sin, it's a sin! And if I have enough faith it isn't, it isn't a sin! Fuck me. I never thought that through until just now, and I see how stupid that is. Old laws which are unpopular don't apply anymore? But which ones? Let me guess -- Paul will decide for me.

 

There really is no place in the church or in Christianity for someone who thinks for him or herself.

[Deva]

we don't all agree on hell. As an adult, I am understanding that as separation from Love, something I think we can all identify with. There are many takes on hell. Burning fire as additional refinement. Also, I have heard "age lasting as opposed to "eternity".

 

You are saying that small sins are less severe than are large and that God should not take away our "rights", but just take away our privileges? Can you define that for us Hans...God's definition for the rights of humanity vs privileges.

 

End3, you have got to be kidding me - "Burning fire as an additional refinement"? Where do you think this comes from? It comes right out of the Bible, the same place where you get all these other notions like "free gift", and all that other nonsense. We are not making this stuff up.

 

This idea of hell only being a "separation from Love" is a new theological twist. It is an idea promoted by liberal theologians that don't want to deal with the fact that hell is depicted as a burning place, where "the fire is not quenched". You can tap dance around that and say its not literal if you want to, but you can't categorically say that the only proper interpretation of hell is a "separation from Love".

 

Lets look at the real world. What would be a "separation from Love". What does that mean?

 

This whole idea of God as some magnified father figure is completely bogus to me.

 

Hans said this, and he is correct, this is the bottom line:

God gave forgiveness, which only will apply if I believe in it, and say thank you. If I don't believe it, or if I don't say thank you, God's "free" gift is not given to me.

[Looking4Answers]

I am understanding that as separation from Love

 

If that is the case, then that is simply crap. Why? Because the Bible depicts god as a heavenly father. And any father worth his salt never separates his children from his love, no matter how bad, wicked or evil his children turn out to be. As a father, I may desire more for my children, I may even get mad at them, correct them and all of that, but I NEVER take my love away from them. EVER!

 

If hell is a separation from love (and the Bible does not teach this concept) the the heavenly father is not a good father.

[Abiyoyo]

If they adjust, they are given the privileges back.

 

Is this not what you said?

 

You, being the Father in this picture, dictate "adjust" or no privileges. And you set the time frame for the restoration of privileges? What if the child never adjusts? No more privileges for eternity? Is it possible that a child's hell is "loss of privileges"? Could be....ask a teenager without a cell phone.

 

Let's contrast that to God. As the Father, God says you don't have to "adjust" to get the full rights of sonship, privileges and all. There it is, the free gift.....that you didn't have to purchase....(and let's not go into semantics). Now, whether you accept the gift is free will in my book, as I am not aware of predestination in my life. You? But, knowing the result, as a loving Father, he tells you the consequences of not accepting the gift.....hell. Now I understand in my "stupid" brain as you call it Hans, that we don't all agree on hell. As an adult, I am understanding that as separation from Love, something I think we can all identify with. There are many takes on hell. Burning fire as additional refinement. Also, I have heard "age lasting as opposed to "eternity".

 

You are saying that small sins are less severe than are large and that God should not take away our "rights", but just take away our privileges? Can you define that for us Hans...God's definition for the rights of humanity vs privileges.

 

Ban me if you wish, but don't blame me for a perspective you cannot see nor imagine.

 

The main problem here End3 with this concept is that we as finite human beings can't define where the spirit lies. I know Peter and Paul both spoke in defining the Holy Spirit; Peter killing the lying couple, and Paul's fruits of the spirits. But it comes down to who's right? In John, it says that nobody knows where the spirit comes and goes. Jesus in the Gospels said if we judge then it will be judged back accordingly to us.

 

Also, It says God is Spirit, which would made God the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that was in Christ, and of the same kingdom that Jesus would've implied was ''within us'' . John also says that the spirit was upon Him without measure. Jesus saw through people, knew the every intent of the heart of man. His disciples saw this, assumed authority in the same demeanor, yet common sense would incline that if we have the same abilities as Jesus Christ had, then we would all be ''like'' Christ, and He would be of no importance.

 

Then also, lets say we do have the full spirit, same as Jesus. Do any Christians on this Earth with that Spirit have the same will as Jesus did? Drink the same cup?

 

I say no. As far as Hell, Who goes to hell? Jesus in Revelations said he already has the keys to death and hell. You should read this and think on it.

 

Rev 20:1-10

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(NKJ)

 

I always was under the impression that those that are written in the Lamb's book of life, where those that he will confess on day of judgment, yet, there are two books of life End3. His and God's. I don't know if you have dove to deep into this logic, but notice how it says 'deceived'.

 

Here's my take. What I think. It goes on to talk about Jesus's kingdom in heaven, and the criteria of people that will inhabit this kingdom.

 

Rev 21:27

27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

(NKJ)

 

 

Rev 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

(NKJ)

 

So here we have a ''gray area'' in Christian theology really, because it seems there is another book, other than the Lamb's book of life.

[Guest ikant]

Its odd to me that this discussion is not resolved in so many people. Think of it like this, do you have the "free will" to perform open heart surgery? You might if you had the ability and the training, but if you did not receive those things, then you can not perform the surgery successfully. Now if you had the training and the ability, and you were a hired surgeon and you found that you were to save the life of a man that molested you when you were a child but were offered a way out because another surgeon knew what had happened and offered to perform the surgery, then you would most likely let the other surgeon do it. Of course you could have some feeling of sympathy for the person and do the surgery yourself. Either way, the choice is really only the effect of the circumstances. You can only do what you are capable of and what that is depends on a whole series of other things. To become a surgeon one must first have the intellectual ability, they must have the adequate dexterity, they must be raised in a country, by parents, and in an environment conducive to promoting their abilities. The point is, the choice to perform surgery is not free, it is contingent upon a large variety of variables. This is the same with every choice we make in life. Other things control the choices we make, therefore they are not free. Of course we have the ability to comprehend (to a limited degree) the potential consequences that an action will incur, but still this is still another variable that dictates how we choose. When it comes to god, it is no different. We can only choose what makes sense to us. The problem is, christians (and many others) believe that we have free will, and this based on pretty much nothing.