Making A Point Against Creationism

[Raul]

Did you ever have off-line conversations with people,who believe that Earth is 7 thousands years old,cause da Bible sas so?

Nah,the question that I really want to ask is:

What's the best way to make a point against creationism in such a conversation?

[Barney]

Did you ever have off-line conversations with people,who believe that Earth is 7 thousands years old,cause da Bible sas so?

Nah,the question that I really want to ask is:

What's the best way to make a point against creationism in such a conversation?

 

Ask them why, in the face of millions of peices of evidence from scientists all over the world, based on palpable measurable facts they choose to beleive the words of some unknown mentally ill writer 2700 years ago?

[florduh]

Make a point against Creationism?

 

That's like making a point against the stork theory when it comes to babies.

 

With people that far off the deep end, I just shake my head and walk away. There's no point in talking.

[par4dcourse]

Make a point against Creationism?

 

That's like making a point against the stork theory when it comes to babies.

 

With people that far off the deep end, I just shake my head and walk away. There's no point in talking.

Yeah, when someone's that far in left field you wonder if the flat earth argument is next.

[defygravity]

Viruses and bacteria mutating, evolution right before your eyes. It happens faster with them because they are tiny.

[florduh]

Viruses and bacteria mutating, evolution right before your eyes. It happens faster with them because they are tiny.

 

If things evolve faster simply by virtue of being tiny, the Christian brain must already be generations ahead of the rest of us.

[Guest Marty]

It happens faster because they have much quicker life cycles than we do. Bacteria probably go through 25 to 50 "generations" in a few weeks. For humans, it's only been about 5 generations since we abolished slavery...

[Larry Spencer]

Yes, I've had those discussions with many Christians. I even led a book-study group with some of them, using Kenneth Miller's Finding Darwin's God. I've never changed a single mind. I don't think there's anything you can say that will convince a young-earth creationist to change his views, unless he is already having doubts about conservative-Christian doctrines. No matter what evidence you come up with for an old universe, they always have the out of "God just created the universe to look old from the beginning."

[ShallowByThyGame]

The first time someone actually said something about the world being young I thought he was making a joke. I was too shocked to bother to explain how well established the age of the earth was. And I was a christian at the time, thinking 'this guy is taking the bible waaay to seriously'

[Thurisaz]

Yes, I've had those discussions with many Christians. I even led a book-study group with some of them, using Kenneth Miller's Finding Darwin's God. I've never changed a single mind. I don't think there's anything you can say that will convince a young-earth creationist to change his views, unless he is already having doubts about conservative-Christian doctrines. No matter what evidence you come up with for an old universe, they always have the out of "God just created the universe to look old from the beginning."

 

:whs:

 

Morontheist doctrine is pretty perfectly sealed against facts and reality. Multiple cop-outs to not have to face the facts are built-in, like the one mentioned above, or "da babble said there'd be scoffers".

 

Unless there are already cracks in that armor that started on the inside, there's *cough cough* not much *cough* you can do.

[Light_of_Reason]

My wife used to believe the earth couldn't be more than 10,000k years old. We had some pretty heated discussions about that. She'd get really mad that there was no reasonable defense for her views.

 

Then about a year after our last discussion on said topic, she had to take a geology class for her major. Half a semester of looking at evidence and textbook was enough to change her mind on that.

[Guest Davka]

Viruses and bacteria mutating, evolution right before your eyes. It happens faster with them because they are tiny.

 

If things evolve faster simply by virtue of being tiny, the Christian brain must already be generations ahead of the rest of us.

 

It is. But it's evolving away from rational thinking, and towards Wal-Mart greeter status. It's a question of a life-form filling a niche.

[Neon Genesis]

Ask them if the stork delivers the baby, who delivers the stork and link them this video?

[Insanity personified]

making a point against creationism isn't usually worth the effort...as people who believe in creationism tend to take great pride in being able to ignore vast amounts of evidence.

 

I always ask them why god created vestigial organs like appendixes, wisdom teeth, tonsils, ect. It seems like the only purpose they have is to cause pain and misery. Doesn't seem very intelligently designed if you ask me.

 

then there's the fact that NO evidence exists WHATSOEVER that would point to a worldwide flood....genetics smashes biblical genealogy into smithereens, the tower of babel is idiotic dribble that has been disproven by linguists several hundred years ago.

 

 

It's really quite easy. I fail to see how anybody could pass Sophomore biology and still believe in creationism.

[LBW]

The arguments that creationists believe & use to defend their position are often based on logical fallacies, and of course willful ignorance of any real contrary evidence. I remember as a young Christian watching Kent Hovind and thinking that he really made sense. And then even as a Christian adult I used alot of his arguments to mentally assure myself that my beliefs were correct. One day post-deconversion, my husband and I decided to watch one of his videos we'd borrowed, to see if there were creationism arguments we'd perhaps not considered yet. It was truly amazing - the arguments I'd previously found so compelling now seemed so full of holes. But I had allowed them to convince me at the time without questioning them, and if anyone had presented evidence I couldn't reconcile with creationism, I'd have figured that I only needed to do more research to prove them wrong.

 

So I agree there's no sense in trying to convince a staunch creationist of anything scientific. After all, christianity is about, "faith," and where's the necessity of faith if it's all logically clear?

[Guest Davka]

... if anyone had presented evidence I couldn't reconcile with creationism, I'd have figured that I only needed to do more research to prove them wrong.

This is the real core of the problem. When I was a Christian, a large part of the reason that I was a Christian was (naturally) because I believed the Christian worldview was accurate. This seems painfully self-evident, but it's worth examining. Every single human being has core beliefs about reality. If evidence comes along that seems to contradict these core beliefs, the automatic reflex is to assume that there is something wrong with the evidence.

 

If I see pigs fly, I will look for hidden 3D projectors or wires before I discard everything I believe about biology and gravity. It is only natural, then, that when Christians see strong evidence for humans and apes evolving from a common ancestor, their instinct is to look for holes in the evidence, not in their belief system.

 

It is a long, slow process of whittling away at the edges of a belief system which eventually causes a paradigm shift. We can't expect Christians coming here to listen to an explanation of evolution and say "Oh - I didn't know that. Looks like I've been duped! So - how do I become an atheist?" I doubt it worked that way for anyone here, and we shouldn't expect it to work that way for visitors either. Especially if their motive in coming here is to prove us wrong.

[LBW]

... if anyone had presented evidence I couldn't reconcile with creationism, I'd have figured that I only needed to do more research to prove them wrong.

This is the real core of the problem. When I was a Christian, a large part of the reason that I was a Christian was (naturally) because I believed the Christian worldview was accurate. This seems painfully self-evident, but it's worth examining. Every single human being has core beliefs about reality. If evidence comes along that seems to contradict these core beliefs, the automatic reflex is to assume that there is something wrong with the evidence.

 

If I see pigs fly, I will look for hidden 3D projectors or wires before I discard everything I believe about biology and gravity. It is only natural, then, that when Christians see strong evidence for humans and apes evolving from a common ancestor, their instinct is to look for holes in the evidence, not in their belief system.

 

It is a long, slow process of whittling away at the edges of a belief system which eventually causes a paradigm shift. We can't expect Christians coming here to listen to an explanation of evolution and say "Oh - I didn't know that. Looks like I've been duped! So - how do I become an atheist?" I doubt it worked that way for anyone here, and we shouldn't expect it to work that way for visitors either. Especially if their motive in coming here is to prove us wrong.

Well said. Anything that contradicts one's core beliefs it is going to be largely dismissed.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Well said. Anything that contradicts one's core beliefs it is going to be largely dismissed.

 

True, but from reading various deconversion stories, sometimes people will publicly dismiss but privately struggle over a point made in an argument. So it does do good to challenge these people with tough questions, even if the effect is not immediate.

[★ Citsonga ★]

The arguments that creationists believe & use to defend their position are often based on logical fallacies, and of course willful ignorance of any real contrary evidence. I remember as a young Christian watching Kent Hovind and thinking that he really made sense. And then even as a Christian adult I used alot of his arguments to mentally assure myself that my beliefs were correct. One day post-deconversion, my husband and I decided to watch one of his videos we'd borrowed, to see if there were creationism arguments we'd perhaps not considered yet. It was truly amazing - the arguments I'd previously found so compelling now seemed so full of holes. But I had allowed them to convince me at the time without questioning them, and if anyone had presented evidence I couldn't reconcile with creationism, I'd have figured that I only needed to do more research to prove them wrong.

 

So I agree there's no sense in trying to convince a staunch creationist of anything scientific. After all, christianity is about, "faith," and where's the necessity of faith if it's all logically clear?

 

Similar thing with me. I don't remember exactly how I came across "creation science," but I was always indoctrinated with the belief that Genesis was an accurate record of creation, so when I did find out that there were "creationist scientists" I started getting into their writings. I read books by Henry Morris, Duane Gish and such, and I went to a few creationist lectures, one of which featured Ken Ham (and I got his autograph on a book).

 

Since I didn't have a scientific background and wasn't even interested in science when I took it in school (it wasn't emphasized in my family, the Bible was, so I just scraped by in science, despite doing quite well in most other subjects), I didn't have the ability to properly evaluate what I was being fed by the creationists. But, hey, they said that the evidence supports the Bible, and since I just "knew" that the Bible was true, the claims of scientific support for the Bible simply reassured my faith.

 

If it hadn't been for internal problems in the Bible (contradictions between parallel accounts, OT texts being taken out of context to fabricate prophetic fulfillments in the NT) that surfaced as I studied to "grow in Christ," I would probably still be a committed believer following creationist bullshit today.

 

Oh, how I wish I had been more interested in science when I was in school. Maybe I could have seen through the creationist nonsense if I had. But, oh well, at least I did finally come to my senses and realize how screwed up it is, all being based on stone-age writings by superstitious nomads.

 

But, yeah, nowadays when I see creationist stuff on YouTube, I wonder how I believed that garbage for so long.

[★ Citsonga ★]

... if anyone had presented evidence I couldn't reconcile with creationism, I'd have figured that I only needed to do more research to prove them wrong.

This is the real core of the problem. When I was a Christian, a large part of the reason that I was a Christian was (naturally) because I believed the Christian worldview was accurate. This seems painfully self-evident, but it's worth examining. Every single human being has core beliefs about reality. If evidence comes along that seems to contradict these core beliefs, the automatic reflex is to assume that there is something wrong with the evidence.

 

If I see pigs fly, I will look for hidden 3D projectors or wires before I discard everything I believe about biology and gravity. It is only natural, then, that when Christians see strong evidence for humans and apes evolving from a common ancestor, their instinct is to look for holes in the evidence, not in their belief system.

 

It is a long, slow process of whittling away at the edges of a belief system which eventually causes a paradigm shift. We can't expect Christians coming here to listen to an explanation of evolution and say "Oh - I didn't know that. Looks like I've been duped! So - how do I become an atheist?" I doubt it worked that way for anyone here, and we shouldn't expect it to work that way for visitors either. Especially if their motive in coming here is to prove us wrong.

Precisely!

 

For those who are as indoctrinated in Christianity and creationism as I was, arguments for evolution are seen as attempts to rationalize away God so they won't have to submit to him.

 

For me, it took whittling away in other areas of Christianity (primarily "Biblical inerrancy") for me to start to see through the fallacy of creationism. After all, since creationism is based on Biblical texts, how reliable can it be once the Bible is realized to be man-made nonsense?

 

Science didn't kill my belief in creationism, the Bible did! How's that for irony?

[Guest Davka]

Science didn't kill my belief in creationism, the Bible did! How's that for irony?

 

It's both ironic and, I suspect, the most common story among ex-Christians. There's nothing like really getting down and studying the Bible to destroy your last shred of faith.

[Taphophilia]

How about the immune system? If creationism is true and god created all things perfect, than why did god create life with an immune system? Even simple one-celled organisms, such as bacteria, contain enzymes systems that protect them against viruses.

[★ Citsonga ★]

There's an interesting counter-creationism series by Thunderf00t on YouTube called "Why do people laugh at creationists?" Here is a link to Part 1, and from there you can watch each subsequent part by clicking the link on the right of the page: