Tabula Rasa Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I'm wondering if there was a public awareness campaign led by freethinkers about the true horrific nature of Yahweh, the god of the bible, and the atrocities he commited and commanded , if it would shock some christians enough to deconvert. I guess the reason I'm wondering if it would work, is because even when I was a christian, the terrible stories like the sacrifice of Jepthar's daughter bothered me a lot. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looking4Answers Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I don't think it would work. Let's look at one reason why: I guess the reason I'm wondering if it would work, is because even when I was a christian, the terrible stories like the sacrifice of Jepthar's daughter bothered me a lot. You mention Jephthah's daughter (Judges 11:34ff). Many conservative theologians will state that Jephthah did not sacrifice his daughter at all (i.e. kill her as a sacrifice). They will say that the "sacrifice" was that she remained a virgin for the rest of her days, giving up her right to marry! Therefore, Christians will just come up with all kinds of excuses to counter the atrocities of the god of the Bible. Here are some links showing this interpretation for Jephthah and his daughter: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2320 http://www.icr.org/article/jephthahs-daughter/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Isn't it wonderful what people say to avoid the reality of this story? I wonder what people used to think of it? But as he came back, he fell into a calamity no way correspondent to the great actions he had done; for it was his daughter that came to meet him; she was also an only child and a virgin: upon this Jephtha heavily lamented the greatness of his affliction, and blamed his daughter for being so forward in meeting him, for he had vowed to sacrifice her to God. However, this action that was to befall her was not ungrateful to her, since she should die upon occasion of her father's victory, and the liberty of her fellow citizens: she only desired her father to give her leave, for two months, to bewail her youth with her fellow citizens; and then she agreed, that at the forementioned thee he might do with her according to his vow. Accordingly, when that time was over, he sacrificed his daughter as a burnt-offering, offering such an oblation as was neither conformable to the law nor acceptable to God, not weighing with himself what opinion the hearers would have of such a practice. Seems Josephus, who was supposedly a priest, thought he snuffed her. From the Jewish Encyclopedia here is some info from their section on the Rabbinic sources (so I don't have to post them myself): He is classed with the fools who do not distinguish between vows (Eccl. R. iv. 7); he was one of the three men (Ta'an. 4a), or according to other authorities one of the four men (Gen. R. lx. 3), who made imprudent vows, but he was the only one who had occasion to deplore his imprudence. According to some commentators, among whom were Ḳimḥi and Levi b. Gershom, Jephthah only kept his daughter in seclusion. But in Targ. Yer. to Judges xi. 39 and the Midrash it is taken for granted that Jephthah immolated his daughter on the altar, which is regarded as a criminal act; for he might have applied to Phinehas to absolve him from his vow.[...]Both were punished:[...] ... The Rabbis concluded also that Jephthah was an ignorant man, else he would have known that a vow of that kind is not valid; according to R. Johanan, Jephthah had merely to pay a certain sum to the sacred treasury of the Temple in order to be freed from the vow; according to R. Simeon ben Laḳish, he was free even without such a payment (Gen. R. l.c.; comp. Lev. R. xxxvii. 3). According to Tan., Beḥuḳḳotai, 7, and Midrash Haggadah to Lev. xxvii. 2, even when Jephthah made the vow God was irritated against him: "What will Jephthah do if an unclean animal comes out to meet him?" Later, when he was on the point of immolating his daughter, she inquired, "Is it written in the Torah that human beings should be brought as burnt offerings?" He replied, "My daughter, my vow was, 'whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house.'" She answered, "But Jacob, too, vowed that he would give to Yhwh the tenth part of all that Yhwh gave him (Gen. xxviii. 22); did he sacrifice any of his sons?" But Jephthah remained inflexible. His daughter then declared that she would go herself to the Sanhedrin to consult them about the vow, and for this purpose asked her father for a delay of two months (comp. Judges xi. 37). The Sanhedrin, however, could not absolve her father from the vow, for God made them forget the Law in order that Jephthah should be punished for having put to death 42,000 Ephraimites (Judges xii. 6). I just love that last attempt at justification. "God" makes everyone forget his laws so they'll burn his daughter to death as punishment against the father for killing these other people. Take that dad! Oh, I guess the innocent virgin daughter probably deserved it too. She probably had impure thoughts or something. I know...she was a witch. Witch! Anyhow. It seems most of the ancients appeared to buy into the idea that she was roasted. I wonder why no one bothered to tell all those priests and rabbis that those words were meant in a figurative sense? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 This is, of course, true. And God is becoming more enlightened right along with us. I agree. We (the collective "we") are just slapping another crummy veneer on old YHWH and hoping he lasts a few more generations until we can afford to get ourselves a shiny new "god." It still doesn't change the fact that Jephthah BBQ'd his daughter. Maybe Jephthah had no freaking heirs because he was eating them all. Has anyone ever thought of that? Jephthah the cannibal is more like it. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I'm wondering if there was a public awareness campaign led by freethinkers about the true horrific nature of Yahweh, the god of the bible, and the atrocities he commited and commanded , if it would shock some christians enough to deconvert. There are probably some Christians who would develop a negative view of bible god if they were shown his true portrait as painted in the Old Testament. After all, most Christians never really study their own bible. Rather, they just listen to what their pastor or priest quotes and then go on their merry way happy in their faith. However, what makes me doubt that enlightening Christians to the atrocities that bible god committed (though he really committed no atrocities since he does not exist) would result in deconversions to any great extent is the old standby excuse that Jesus changed all of that. It is as if Jesus erased all of the atrocities recorded in the old testament (whether these atrocities are factual or mythological). I believe that the real stumbling block for Christians is faith. Faith blinds the faithful so they are unable to see the truth. I know it blilnded me for a long, long time. For Christian deconversion on any large scale, it is faith that must be overcome so Christians can clearly see and understand the words of the bible and see that Christianity is a false religion. And overcoming one's faith is a very, very difficult process. Those with faith will fight its loss even to the point of denying what to non-Christians is patently obvious. Yes, bible god, if he were real, would be a vicious monster and there is no greater evidence of this than the bible. But Christian faith prevents the faithful from truly seeing and understanding this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyJ Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I think the she-bear story (killing 42 children) is a better example. Its more ridiculous, of course, but I can't see how anyone would argue out of that one. And of course, the flood and the Midianite situation with Moses telling them to kill the male children, and the time that the man's whole family including children was killed for him stealing a trinket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyJ Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I have an idea.... How about we put the Bible God on trial in the section of this site known as "The Arena" and have an actual prosecution and a defense. The only proof we use is the Bible? What do you all say? My mom was a lawyer for a few years so I know just enough to be dangerous! :> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Moon Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I like your idea Tabula but there is one reason that it won't work and I guess George Orwell came up with the best word for it in 1984. Doublethink this link can explain it then I can Doublethink and as for Jephthah’s daughter I know that the JW's use the daughter serving god in the temple explanation as least in their book of childrens bible stories Story 53 Jephthah’s Promise HAVE you ever made a promise and later found it hard to keep? The man in this picture did, and that is why he is so sad. The man is a brave judge of Israel named Jeph´thah. Jeph´thah lives at a time when the Israelites are no longer worshiping Jehovah. They are again doing what is bad. So Jehovah lets the people of Am´mon hurt them. This makes the Israelites cry out to Jehovah: ‘We have sinned against you. Please, save us!’ The people are sorry for the bad things that they have done. They show that they are sorry by worshiping Jehovah again. And so again Jehovah helps them. Jeph´thah is chosen by the people to fight against the bad Am´mon·ites. Jeph´thah wants very much for Jehovah to help him in the fight. So he promises Jehovah: ‘If you will give me victory over the Am´mon·ites, the first person that comes out of my house to meet me when I return from the victory I will give to you.’ Jehovah listens to Jeph´thah’s promise, and he helps him to win the victory. When Jeph´thah returns home, do you know who the first one is to come out to meet him? It is his daughter, who is his only child. ‘Oh, my daughter!’ Jeph´thah cries. ‘What sadness you are bringing me. But I have made a promise to Jehovah, and I cannot take it back.’ When Jeph´thah’s daughter learns about his promise, at first she is sad too. For it means that she will have to leave her father and friends. But she will spend the rest of her life serving Jehovah at his tabernacle in Shi´loh. So she tells her father: ‘If you have made a promise to Jehovah, you must keep it.’ So Jeph´thah’s daughter goes to Shi´loh, and she spends the rest of her life serving Jehovah at his tabernacle. Four days out of every year the women of Israel go to visit her there, and they have a happy time together. The people love Jeph´thah’s daughter because she is such a good servant of Jehovah. However in Judges 11:30-31 it says 30 Then Jeph´thah made a vow to Jehovah and said: “If you without fail give the sons of Am´mon into my hand, 31 it must also occur that the one coming out, who comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Am´mon, must also become Jehovah’s, and I must offer that one up as a burnt offering then in verses 34-35 Finally Jeph´thah came to Miz´pah to his home, and, look! his daughter coming out to meet him with tambourine playing and dancing! Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came about that when he caught sight of her, he began to rip his garments and to say: “Alas, my daughter! You have indeed made me bend down, and you yourself have become the one I was ostracizing. And I—I have opened my mouth to Jehovah, and I am unable to turn back *sigh* it's not the first time that what was told in the bible stories was different from what was actually said in their version of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagan Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 However in Judges 11:30-31 it says30 Then Jeph´thah made a vow to Jehovah and said: “If you without fail give the sons of Am´mon into my hand, 31 it must also occur that the one coming out, who comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Am´mon, must also become Jehovah’s, and I must offer that one up as a burnt offering then in verses 34-35 Finally Jeph´thah came to Miz´pah to his home, and, look! his daughter coming out to meet him with tambourine playing and dancing! Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came about that when he caught sight of her, he began to rip his garments and to say: “Alas, my daughter! You have indeed made me bend down, and you yourself have become the one I was ostracizing. And I—I have opened my mouth to Jehovah, and I am unable to turn back *sigh* it's not the first time that what was told in the bible stories was different from what was actually said in their version of the bible. Jepthah had intent to kill someone for God, and was only upset because it was his only daughter. The sick part of this story is Yahweh let it happen, and possibly even sanctioned it based on verse 29: Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QuidEstCaritas? Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 However in Judges 11:30-31 it says30 Then Jeph´thah made a vow to Jehovah and said: “If you without fail give the sons of Am´mon into my hand, 31 it must also occur that the one coming out, who comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Am´mon, must also become Jehovah’s, and I must offer that one up as a burnt offering then in verses 34-35 Finally Jeph´thah came to Miz´pah to his home, and, look! his daughter coming out to meet him with tambourine playing and dancing! Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came about that when he caught sight of her, he began to rip his garments and to say: “Alas, my daughter! You have indeed made me bend down, and you yourself have become the one I was ostracizing. And I—I have opened my mouth to Jehovah, and I am unable to turn back *sigh* it's not the first time that what was told in the bible stories was different from what was actually said in their version of the bible. Jepthah had intent to kill someone for God, and was only upset because it was his only daughter. The sick part of this story is Yahweh let it happen, and possibly even sanctioned it based on verse 29: Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah... ....and Jephthah got assraped repeatedly by teh Lord and teh Lord was like "UNF UNF UNF, TAKE THAT BITCH!" And teh Lord saw it, and it was teh Goodness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagan Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 However in Judges 11:30-31 it says30 Then Jeph´thah made a vow to Jehovah and said: “If you without fail give the sons of Am´mon into my hand, 31 it must also occur that the one coming out, who comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Am´mon, must also become Jehovah’s, and I must offer that one up as a burnt offering then in verses 34-35 Finally Jeph´thah came to Miz´pah to his home, and, look! his daughter coming out to meet him with tambourine playing and dancing! Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 And it came about that when he caught sight of her, he began to rip his garments and to say: “Alas, my daughter! You have indeed made me bend down, and you yourself have become the one I was ostracizing. And I—I have opened my mouth to Jehovah, and I am unable to turn back *sigh* it's not the first time that what was told in the bible stories was different from what was actually said in their version of the bible. Jepthah had intent to kill someone for God, and was only upset because it was his only daughter. The sick part of this story is Yahweh let it happen, and possibly even sanctioned it based on verse 29: Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah... ....and Jephthah got assraped repeatedly by teh Lord and teh Lord was like "UNF UNF UNF, TAKE THAT BITCH!" And teh Lord saw it, and it was teh Goodness. That's really disgusting but I confess that I laughed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsfavoritecolor Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Many here cite examples of how horrible the God of the Old Testament is, but in my opinion, the god of the New Testament is infinitely worse. I use the word “infinitely” advisedly. Nowhere in the Old Testament does God condemn the souls of people to eternal (infinite) excruciating pain. It’s the New Testament that supplies that gem, eternal painful damnation in Hell, “where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched” (Mark, Chapter nine) As for Christians knowing that that condemnation is in the Bible, they not only know it, but many glory in it. I believe that many of them look with approval at the promised suffering in Hell of unbelievers as payback for all those that reject their delusional beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Many here cite examples of how horrible the God of the Old Testament is, but in my opinion, the god of the New Testament is infinitely worse. I know what you're trying to say here, but aren't they the same god? I mean, god is supposed to be perfect, so the fact that he changes his tactics should tell you something right there. How can something that's supposedly perfect become more perfect? He also seems to learn from his mistakes, but then, if he's supposedly perfect, then how can he make mistakes in the first place? If I remember correctly, there was one place in the OT that said that god actually felt remorse about something that he did, but how could that be? Another thing that bothered me was that he only seems to display petty human emotions, like jealousy. Like Bill Maher said in Religulous, I've known people who have gotten over jealousy. Why is that a positive quality for the creator of the universe to have if it's not a good quality for people to have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godsfavoritecolor Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I’m not sure they are the same god. The authors of the Old and New Testaments are separated by several hundred years. The OT god is a petty tyrant for Jews only. The NT god is a triune god with authority over gentiles as well as Jews. (Out of time, no more replies from gfc till tomorrow morning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QuidEstCaritas? Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I’m not sure they are the same god. The authors of the Old and New Testaments are separated by several hundred years. The OT god is a petty tyrant for Jews only. The NT god is a triune god with authority over gentiles as well as Jews. Obviously they aren't in one sense, but the theological contention is that they indeed are the same "God" and that "Revelation" about that alleged "same god" is a lot like using a custom light switch to slowly turn up the light in the dark,... It's bullshit I know, but if it weren't for dogmatic X-tianity the claim that they were the same "God" never would have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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