nightflight Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ever notice how mainstream Evangelical Christians distance themselves from Fred Phelps and his rhetoric? I have one question: Why? What is different about Phelps that leads Evangelical Christians to distance and even disavow him? Seems to me that his and their beliefs are in accord. Is it just the fact that he is outspoken? Both Phelps and Evangelical Christians in fact believe that homosexuality is an "abomination" to Yahweh. Both believe that the homosexual deserves to be damned. So what's the difference besides Phelps' propensity to focus on homosexuality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QuidEstCaritas? Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ever notice how mainstream Evangelical Christians distance themselves from Fred Phelps and his rhetoric? I have one question: Why? What is different about Phelps that leads Evangelical Christians to distance and even disavow him? Seems to me that his and their beliefs are in accord. Is it just the fact that he is outspoken? Both Phelps and Evangelical Christians in fact believe that homosexuality is an "abomination" to Yahweh. Both believe that the homosexual deserves to be damned. So what's the difference besides Phelps' propensity to focus on homosexuality? They consider him and his merry band of crazies to be a "cult"-read a sect that is not evangelical approved- and his tactics to be "over the top". This translates thusly: Because Phelps won't submit to the judgment of any conventional evangelical hierarchy or power structure he must be a "cult" and thus "of Satan". Oddly enough he and his band of crazies is a cult, but in a sociological sense, it's not like they are so "evil" where the evangelicals are somehow not. They merely don't approve of his cowboy approach, afaik his Calvinist TULIP doctrines, albeit unorthodox, are still logically valid in their own right, I would doubt he is preaching something that isn't logically valid given the foundation of dubious premises he surely operates on. I think it could even be said that most "cults" or "heretical sects" take the garbage in various forms of conventional X-tianity out to it's logical conclusion and then embaress the hell out of conventional Fundy hierarchies that want to be far more concealed, opaque, and dishonest about the whole affair; i.e they want to keep the noose hidden until it's around the neck of their political victims where the cultists just want to outright lynch people politically, if that makes more sense. My sense is that with a group like Phelps the people are far more dishonest among each other than they are in their message to everyone else. In Fundy groups it's the exact opposite. That's my thoughts on the matter, as I know that Fundy evangelicals will go to great lengths to somehow explain away other religious sects as "cults" and such, sometimes they are "right" in a sense, but oftentimes it's simply a matter of demonizing the competition. In all fairness to Phelps I think he and his band of crazies are far far more intellectually honest than most Fundies are about the matter of "homosexuality", meaning they come right out and say their condemnation rather than hiding behind carefully thought out and patronizing rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I think it's because the Phelps are taking fundamentalism to its "logical" conclusion. The "mainstream" fundies know deep down this is what their beliefs are really like but they know it's politically incorrect to admit it, so they have to go through the mental hoops to deny any association with Fred and his ilk in order to save political face. It's kind of like how when xtians claim that xtianity is the one true way to heaven, but ask any of them if Anne Frank is going to hell because she was a Jew and most will try to get out of answering by saying only God can judge others because they know it would sound politically incorrect and anti-Semetic to admit what they really think. The Phelps don't have any political ties to risk losing, so they can afford to be as batshit insane as they want. Basically, the Phelps are speaking the truth about fundamentalism and the "mainstream" fundamentalists are embarrassed about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 In addition to all the above, Fred Phelps is none too cozy with mainstream fundies. Though he's so busy with his top targets that they don't really get any of his attention, Phelps maintains that evangelicals have turned John 3:16 (which they emphasize and depend upon so much as part of their carrot) into a lie, he's critical of xians in general for not teaching/reading/following the babble. He has basically one-upped the evangelicals, and though they do tend to carry the same beliefs that Phelps carries to logical extremes, they can't really ally themselves with someone who considers them to be depraved and not really xians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsy79 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ever notice how mainstream Evangelical Christians distance themselves from Fred Phelps and his rhetoric? I have one question: Why? What is different about Phelps that leads Evangelical Christians to distance and even disavow him? Seems to me that his and their beliefs are in accord. Is it just the fact that he is outspoken? Both Phelps and Evangelical Christians in fact believe that homosexuality is an "abomination" to Yahweh. Both believe that the homosexual deserves to be damned. So what's the difference besides Phelps' propensity to focus on homosexuality? Well, I can't STAND Evangelical Christianity, but I have to say that I see mainstream Evangelicals a lot differently than I see Fred Phelps and his ilk. Phelps is definitely the extreme of the extremists in my book. Yes, both Phelps and Evangelical Christians believe that homosexuality is an abomination to YHWH, but Phelps is very hateful and mainstream Evangelicals are not...extremists are, but your average everyday Evangelical has a kind, although horribly misguided heart. When they accidentally say a hateful thing, they don't even realize it or know that it's hateful (which is pitiful). Phelps is different. He knows it, doesn't care, and is proud of his hatefulness. Maybe I feel this way because I know how kind my Evangelical parents and loved ones are. They believe homosexuality is an abomination because the babble says so (ugh) but they truly love people who are struggling with their sexuality. They also believe God loves everyone. They do NOT believe that God hates homosexuals like Fred Phelps does. Yes, I know that makes no sense since God is sending homosexuals to hay-ull, but they truly believe God loves everyone and just hates their sins. I mean, most of us realize homosexuality is not something anyone should worry about since it's perfectly normal, but they truly believe God is going to punish these people, so they want to save their souls, ya know? It's crazy and even evil on a macro level, but at the individual level, these folks truly are kind people who have been snowed by religious indoctrination. It is sad. *Edited to make more sense. LOL* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Well, speaking as a former evangelical... I think part of it is also the whole "we have a relationship, not a religion" thing. Religion is what the Pharisees had, and what evangelicals don't want people to think they have. They want people to see evangelical Christianity as a dynamic, joyful, deeply spiritual relationship with a living deity - not as a legalistic, controlling, judgmental bureaucracy concerned with condemning nonbelievers. So they try to distance themselves from established religions, and from the entire history of Christianity in all its bloody glory. And they also attempt to distance themselves from Christian groups they consider cultlike, for the same reason. Problem with Phelps is that his ideology is Biblical literalism taken to its logical extreme - a literalism that many evangelicals claim to practice themselves, but in fact do not (or practice it selectively, anyway). In some sense Phelps puts other claimed literalists to shame with his tenacity about it - he's certainly not lukewarm by a long shot. He's also absolutely batshit insane, so he makes Christians and Christianity look really really bad. He's just a terrible example, to an evangelical, because he presents their product in such a bad light - a product they badly want to sell to others. I'd imagine that any evangelical compared to Phelps would quickly claim that the Phelps clan aren't TrueChristianst, that they only act the way they do because they don't really have a Real Relationship with Jeebus, but are just batshit modern-day Pharisees... one thing handicapping them, though, is that there's some overlap in tactics and attitudes between Phelps and evangelicals. He's just an embarrassment to Bible-worshipping Christians everywhere, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted May 14, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted May 14, 2009 Phelps makes even a fundy/evangelical look good. Everybody wants to look good. His behavior feeds right into their need to feel superior to others. In turn, Phelps Phreaks get to assert their own superiority and smugness. It's a win-win situation for all True Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think it's because the Phelps are taking fundamentalism to its "logical" conclusion. The "mainstream" fundies know deep down this is what their beliefs are really like but they know it's politically incorrect to admit it, so they have to go through the mental hoops to deny any association with Fred and his ilk in order to save political face I think you are on the right track but I would make an important distinction. The average fundy knows that the logical conclusion of their faith is wrong and immoral so they jump through hoops and apologize for it to clean it up. The average fundy, and I'm not talking about the outlier wackos here, would not advocate the logical conclusion of their faith, even behind closed doors. For instance, they think homosexuality is a sin, but the majority of them today would never advocate stoning them and would more than likely fight hard against anyone who suggested it. Phelps is insane. The average fundy is just confused and lacks good logic. Phelps is a bad person. The average fundy is just like you and me except for the fact that they are indoctrinated with a screwy belief. The average fundy compartmentalizes their beliefs because they have to in order to maintain a higher level of morality that they do in fact live by for the most part. That's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Ever notice how mainstream Evangelical Christians distance themselves from Fred Phelps and his rhetoric? I have one question: Why? What is different about Phelps that leads Evangelical Christians to distance and even disavow him? Seems to me that his and their beliefs are in accord. Is it just the fact that he is outspoken? Both Phelps and Evangelical Christians in fact believe that homosexuality is an "abomination" to Yahweh. Both believe that the homosexual deserves to be damned. So what's the difference besides Phelps' propensity to focus on homosexuality? Well, I can't STAND Evangelical Christianity, but I have to say that I see mainstream Evangelicals a lot differently than I see Fred Phelps and his ilk. Phelps is definitely the extreme of the extremists in my book. Yes, both Phelps and Evangelical Christians believe that homosexuality is an abomination to YHWH, but Phelps is very hateful and mainstream Evangelicals are not...extremists are, but your average everyday Evangelical has a kind, although horribly misguided heart. When they accidentally say a hateful thing, they don't even realize it or know that it's hateful (which is pitiful). Phelps is different. He knows it, doesn't care, and is proud of his hatefulness. Maybe I feel this way because I know how kind my Evangelical parents and loved ones are. They believe homosexuality is an abomination because the babble says so (ugh) but they truly love people who are struggling with their sexuality. They also believe God loves everyone. They do NOT believe that God hates homosexuals like Fred Phelps does. Yes, I know that makes no sense since God is sending homosexuals to hay-ull, but they truly believe God loves everyone and just hates their sins. I mean, most of us realize homosexuality is not something anyone should worry about since it's perfectly normal, but they truly believe God is going to punish these people, so they want to save their souls, ya know? It's crazy and even evil on a macro level, but at the individual level, these folks truly are kind people who have been snowed by religious indoctrination. It is sad. *Edited to make more sense. LOL* Yeah, spot on. These are the points I was trying to get across in my post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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