Don't Ask Too Many Questions

[Neon Genesis]

I used to think the xtians at my parents' church were good people that were just ignorant of the bible but they're officially evil. Tonight we were talking about the Book Of Exodus in bible class. The teacher brought up the whole debate about whether or not Pharaoh had freewill and I asked if it was justified for God to murder the first born babies. The teacher flat out said that God can murder who ever he wanted because he's perfect. He precisely used the word murder. After class, this lady said she was going to attack me but I don't know if she just meant she was going to attack my opinion or something else and the teacher told me not to always ask questions, so now they're censoring my opinion and now I'm not allowed to question authority. That lady also said it was ok for God to murder them because they were going to wind up in heaven anyway and this somehow makes everything a-OK. I asked if that meant abortion was ok, since the babies would go to heaven anyway and they said no because only God can kill babies. It just pisses me off because the teacher is the one who brought up the discussion to begin with and asked us for our opinions and yet I'm not allowed to voice my opinion and these people are freaking psychopaths. Most xtians will at least try to deny God is murdering people but to flat out admit he is and that this is just disturbs me. Why am I the only one there who is scared of this mentality? Why can't they see how horrible it all is? It's staring at them right in the face and yet they just can't see the obvious.

[florduh]

Bible study is where Christians have validated the beliefs that were taught to them. It's not for a real critique of the book or a review and revision of the church's dogma.

 

Why are you there anyway?

[Looking4Answers]

I had heard, in a few Bible studies in church over various times, that god can kill/murder whomever he wants because we, being his creation, are his property. And the owner can do whatever he wants with that which belongs to him. When we kill, it is murder because we take away property from god. Only god has the right, by ownership, to take life.

 

Sick, isn't it. And Christians will sing, "Glory!"

[Ouroboros]

The problem though is that God didn't directly kill the babies, but he ordered an angel to do it. So murder was done through proxy, by command. Which means that if a human kills as proxy by God's command, it is also justified. But if a human kills someone by another God's command, then it is suddenly wrong.

 

So how do we know the angel was a good angel doing it by God's command, and not a demon disguised?

[Arctic]

to a xian, god can do no wrong, that's just impossible in there minds, every excuse and reason will be tried and applied in favor of god before a xian will admit to god being wrong but even then most will just blame themselves as being incapable of knowing gods ways,

 

at least that's how I rationalized it and everyone around me, I guess that's why there can be so much mass murder of people in the bible and god still will be considered the most loving being in the xians mind.

[mwc]

That lady also said it was ok for God to murder them because they were going to wind up in heaven anyway and this somehow makes everything a-OK. I asked if that meant abortion was ok, since the babies would go to heaven anyway and they said no because only God can kill babies.

Interesting.

 

The Egyptian babies that were killed at the 1st Passover all went to Judeo-xian heaven because "god" murdered them (to bring honor to himself)?

 

So what is the fate of the babies that were killed by the mean first Pharaoh? I mean this story is about the creation of the contract between Jacob/Israel and YHWH after all. At that point in the story no agreement had been officially reached.

 

Based on what was said about the abortion babies I can only assume that these children did not reach the "promised land" like the Egyptian children did.

 

It's staring at them right in the face and yet they just can't see the obvious.

If they truly are censoring a dissenting voice then I'd have to say this statement may be in error. They may see things better than you're giving them credit. They just don't wish for others to have the gift of sight.

 

mwc

[Thurisaz]

Why can't they see how horrible it all is? It's staring at them right in the face and yet they just can't see the obvious.

 

They do all they can to keep their brains shut down. If they would accidentally power them up they might realize the truth. Therefore, the easiest and quickest "explanation" will always be preferred by the morontheist because it minimizes the risk of having to think.

 

You want a reasonable answer. They want a quick answer. There is no middle ground.

[Thurisaz]

Sick, isn't it. And Christians will sing, "Glory!"

Rejoice they say for we are "saved" and we must sing the fight

Sing it till your lungs burst or they'll set you alight

 

Gawd I love that song

[Neon Genesis]

Bible study is where Christians have validated the beliefs that were taught to them. It's not for a real critique of the book or a review and revision of the church's dogma.

 

Why are you there anyway?

But it still pisses me off because the teacher was the one who started this discussion in the first place, and he's the one who asked for our opinions and that's what I gave. If he didn't really want our opinions and only wanted a mutual masturbation of egos, then he should have not have asked a question on a subject that's obviously way over his head. At least I can now say that I've debated a room full of about 20 or 30 fundies at once and not one of them could save me. I noticed two of the fundies sitting next to me moved their chairs away from me during the discussion. It's kind of obnoxious but also sort of amusing. I'm reminded of that Charlie The Unicorn flash cartoon. "Shun the non-believer!" And I'm there because I haven't come out of the closet to my parents yet and I'm unable to live on my own without support yet, so I still have to go to brainwashing camp/church.

 

See how he teaches after you nail him. If he is all pissy after that, you got to him then, when you are in class, look at him as if you and he both know you kicked his ass intellectually

Hah, the teacher didn't even know what the word omnibenelovence meant. This is like Basic Xtian Theology 101. I brought up the verse in Matthew where Jesus says the old law still applies until the end of the Earth. Their response is to apparently just ignore Jesus and keep quoting Paul until I finally agree with them. So, Paul trumps Jesus?

 

The problem though is that God didn't directly kill the babies, but he ordered an angel to do it. So murder was done through proxy, by command. Which means that if a human kills as proxy by God's command, it is also justified. But if a human kills someone by another God's command, then it is suddenly wrong.

And what about when King Saul was commanded to murder all those Amalekite babies by God? I wonder how they'd get around that. I wish I could lend some of them my copy of The God Delusion or link to a John Shelby Spong video but they would probably go over their heads.

 

So what is the fate of the babies that were killed by the mean first Pharaoh? I mean this story is about the creation of the contract between Jacob/Israel and YHWH after all. At that point in the story no agreement had been officially reached.

The lady also claimed that God knew ahead of time that the babies would grow up to be evil. In that case, why did God allow them to be born in the first place? It sounds like she's saying that those babies were born just to die. None of them were able to answer my question why couldn't God have come up with another way to save the Isrealites that did not require the murdering of babies? For a god that's supposedly all-powerful, their god frankly seems limited and unimpressive to me.

 

I get the idea behind it, I can even hang with it (barely) as allegory. But so many followers believe it is a true story, and think it is cool, even striving to emulate Abraham.

It's even more disturbing when you consider that all three Abrahamic religions are based on this one action of child abuse.

[Overcame Faith]

I noticed two of the fundies sitting next to me moved their chairs away from me during the discussion.

 

They were obviously afraid of the lightening strike which was sure to come.

 

Interesting that the teacher admitted that god "murdered" the Egyptians. Though he probably did not realize it, by admitting it was murder he also admitted that god wrongfully took a life. Here's the definition of murder from Black's Law Dictionary (Fifth Edition): "The unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought, either express or implied." Thus, since the teacher admitted that god committed murder, he admitted that what god did was unlawful and, therefore, wrong. Of course, I am sure the teacher, if given this definition of murder, would respond with something like, god is above the law and therefore what he did to the Egyptians was not murder. He might add that god gives the law, but he is not bound by it, or some such rubish. Or perhaps I give the teacher too much credit for actually thinking through what he said....

[LilaMae]

I had heard, in a few Bible studies in church over various times, that god can kill/murder whomever he wants because we, being his creation, are his property. And the owner can do whatever he wants with that which belongs to him. When we kill, it is murder because we take away property from god. Only god has the right, by ownership, to take life.

 

Sick, isn't it. And Christians will sing, "Glory!"

 

I've heard that. It makes me want to cry and vomit at the same time. The cosmic tyrant apparently has the right to cut the strings of the puppets in his puppet theatre.

[AKR]

But it still pisses me off because the teacher was the one who started this discussion in the first place, and he's the one who asked for our opinions and that's what I gave. If he didn't really want our opinions and only wanted a mutual masturbation of egos, then he should have not have asked a question on a subject that's obviously way over his head. At least I can now say that I've debated a room full of about 20 or 30 fundies at once and not one of them could save me. I noticed two of the fundies sitting next to me moved their chairs away from me during the discussion. It's kind of obnoxious but also sort of amusing. I'm reminded of that Charlie The Unicorn flash cartoon. "Shun the non-believer!" And I'm there because I haven't come out of the closet to my parents yet and I'm unable to live on my own without support yet, so I still have to go to brainwashing camp/church.

 

 

I feel for you. I had to go to a Christian school even after I was pretty much an Atheist. If he scolds you again, remind him that he asked for questions/opinions, and if he can't handle them, maybe he's not secure in what he believes and/or should have someone else teach.

 

 

 

Hah, the teacher didn't even know what the word omnibenelovence meant. This is like Basic Xtian Theology 101. I brought up the verse in Matthew where Jesus says the old law still applies until the end of the Earth. Their response is to apparently just ignore Jesus and keep quoting Paul until I finally agree with them. So, Paul trumps Jesus?

 

Don't you love that? Whenever they are afraid of a passage, they ignore it and quote another one, and the one they quote always trumps the other, although, they will never admit they are just posting a contradiction with no justification of why one is more valid.

 

 

The lady also claimed that God knew ahead of time that the babies would grow up to be evil. In that case, why did God allow them to be born in the first place? It sounds like she's saying that those babies were born just to die. None of them were able to answer my question why couldn't God have come up with another way to save the Isrealites that did not require the murdering of babies? For a god that's supposedly all-powerful, their god frankly seems limited and unimpressive to me.

 

According to the Bible, they WERE born to die, and Pharaoh's heart was hardened so god could show off. Ask them about this passage:

 

 

 

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

 

 

 

It disturbs me how easily Christians come to the defense of such a sadistic, vicious god.

 

 

 

 

I had heard, in a few Bible studies in church over various times, that god can kill/murder whomever he wants because we, being his creation, are his property. And the owner can do whatever he wants with that which belongs to him. When we kill, it is murder because we take away property from god. Only god has the right, by ownership, to take life.

 

Sick, isn't it. And Christians will sing, "Glory!"

 

 

 

I hate that argument. Why would anyone think that creating something gives you the right to torture or kill it? We create children; can we torture and kill them? Would Christians have no problem if god tortured them for no reason? Stupid Christians.

[Skeptic]

Tonight we were talking about the Book Of Exodus in bible class. The teacher brought up the whole debate about whether or not Pharaoh had freewill and I asked if it was justified for God to murder the first born babies. The teacher flat out said that God can murder who ever he wanted because he's perfect. He precisely used the word murder.

 

I've always wondered what xians really think of that story. That story played a big part in my deconversion. Whenever I'd start to consider that maybe god was good and I was interpreting the bible wrong or whatever, I would remember reading that god hardened the pharaoh's heart and that he didn't have a choice at all, and that allowed god to kill not only the first born babies but first born animals, as well. Why not just slap the pharaoh upside the head for being an idiot? I will never understand why any of that was somehow justified and I don't want to understand that.

 

the teacher told me not to always ask questions, so now they're censoring my opinion and now I'm not allowed to question authority.

 

My parents, but specifically my mom, used to spout off the same shit to me. One saying she would say to me a lot when I was getting "too smart for my own good" as a kid was, "Curiosity killed the cat." At the time, I didn't know what that meant, but after awhile, I realized that it means pretty much what "don't ask too many questions" means: disengage your brain, abandon all reason, and jump off the cliff with the other lemmings. Fuck that. I'll think for myself even if I burn for all eternity for it.

 

That lady also said it was ok for God to murder them because they were going to wind up in heaven anyway and this somehow makes everything a-OK. I asked if that meant abortion was ok, since the babies would go to heaven anyway and they said no because only God can kill babies.

 

So earthly suffering means absolutely nothing to them because there's an afterlife. How "enlightening". What a fucking joke. If I was in that situation, which I probably wouldn't be, but even if I was, I would do either one of two things, depending on how I felt that day: I would either get up and leave or I would have a screaming match with them. Just end up cussing them out. I kind of feel like doing that right now, to be honest. I know it wouldn't do anything to help the situation and that there's no reasoning with people like that, but it might be cathartic for me, either that or it would make it worse. I don't know. One question that I want to ask someone like that is, "What if god decided to kill you one day, and it was the most drawn out, most painful death ever? Then would human suffering matter?" Because I'll bet you anything that the reason why human suffering doesn't matter in this case is because the people who are suffering aren't seen as people to them, which is ironic, because they supposedly believe that a fertilized egg is a person and would kill to defend that, so that doesn't add up at all, but whatever. I didn't say that it was logical. But I'll bet you that if "god" took one of their friends or themselves and caused them either physical or psychological torture that was so bad that they were pleading for death, it would be totally different. Well, you're just going to end up in heaven anyway, right? Give me a fucking break.

 

Why am I the only one there who is scared of this mentality?

 

It's because you're the only reasonable person in the room. All of these other people have abandoned reason, remember? They're letting other people think for them rather than think for themselves. If it were me, I wouldn't bother with them anymore. I wouldn't talk to them, associate with them, nothing of the sort. These people are fucked up and they're dangerous to you because they could try to bring you back with them. They could try to rope you into abandoning your reason, as well. I'm not saying that you'd fall for it, because I think you're much stronger than that, but I wouldn't be able to stand having someone around who is constantly doing that, and you don't deserve the stress that's associated with that. My mother always asks me every time I talk to her when I'll repent of my life of sin. It got to be too much for me and I stopped contacting her. I plan to never talk to her again, not just because of that, but that's a fairly big reason. I'm not telling you what to do or anything, but if it was me, I'd never speak to those people again.

[Vigile]

Neon, I feel for you. Not being able to profess your beliefs and having to sit and not question while being fed drivel would make my head explode.

 

And I find it particularly sad that fundies are so afraid of questions. That their beliefs are irrational is a given but to go through life as a quiet sheep accepting everything spoon fed you as long as it comes from the right source is just such a betrayal of one's own humanity. They are truly slaves to their church and their beliefs. It deserves pity but for one reason, they are the masters that enslave themselves. That's the reality of this ugly meme of theirs.

[Dagan]

I had heard, in a few Bible studies in church over various times, that god can kill/murder whomever he wants because we, being his creation, are his property. And the owner can do whatever he wants with that which belongs to him. When we kill, it is murder because we take away property from god. Only god has the right, by ownership, to take life.

 

I hate that argument, too. It logically follows:

 

God created mankind

 

Mankind disobeyed, and is therefore hateful to God and deserves to die

 

God chooses to torture and kill his creations (and the Pharaoh story and Romans 9 prove that's his choice, not the actions of evil people) that are dead to him anyway just to make a point about how great he is

 

And yet we are supposed to sing love songs to Jesus every Sunday? Sounds like the Bride of Christ is a battered wife.

 

Sounds pretty sick to me.

 

Put theological arguments through any kind of logical progression and it's instant fail.