Guest ephymeris Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I have a friend who is Buddhist and today I went with her to celebrate Vesak Day at a temple. It was a lovely rite and people were quite friendly and there was really no pressure. Though I have been to several nonreligious meditation functions, I haven't been in a house of worship in at least 3 years now. I was surprised to feel very uncomfortable with sections of the service that reminded me of christian services such as chanting/singing, going down to the front of the temple to perform a rite, the Buddhist idea of heaven and hell, and even the bowing to a carven image of the Buddha. It surprised me that I would feel this way. I think my guard is still up after my terrible experiences with church and the intense feeling of betrayal from a god that never existed. I'm not in the market for a deity but I appreciate Buddhist practices and philosophy and I think I would like these aspects reflected in my own life. I love meditation and mindfulness so I'm tentatively going down this path to see if I can meet my "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) needs without breaking my own boundries. I wonder if the attempt is even worth it since I have my own stipulations to what I will allow myself to experience. My boundries are as follows: 1. I refuse to believe there is a magic, invisible, personified god. 2. I refuse to worship anything or anyone (though I feel okay showing reverence to important ideals and historical figures for their contributions). 3. I refuse to believe I am defective and in need of a gross overhaul to be presentable/salvageable to anyone/thing. I don't know what, if any, spiritual awakening can occur within my own boundries or if I'm being too closed minded but I'm not willing to put my heart on the line for false hopes, ideals, and deity. Do these things sound unreasonable? Am I being too cautious? I do not want to go down the same road I did with christianity, I'm guarding my heart closely this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 The things you have listed do not sound unreasonable to me. I have been attending a Dharma Center and I do relate to what you are saying about the things that make you feel uncomfortable. There are some things for me as well. I feel these are distractions from the heart of what the Buddha discovered, which was that there is no one else that is going to save you. You are the Buddha, not something outside. You work it out for yourself and you must see it for yourself. No one, either a celestial deity, a bodhisattva or a teacher, is going to give it to you. He did it alone, sitting under a tree. I am afraid it is easy to lose sight of that when its a golden statue on the altar that people are bowing and prostrating to. Having said that, is nice to feel a part of a group of like-minded people. I think just meditating with a group is good now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ephymeris Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 The things you have listed do not sound unreasonable to me. I have been attending a Dharma Center and I do relate to what you are saying about the things that make you feel uncomfortable. There are some things for me as well. I feel these are distractions from the heart of what the Buddha discovered, which was that there is no one else that is going to save you. You are the Buddha, not something outside. You work it out for yourself and you must see it for yourself. No one, either a celestial deity, a bodhisattva or a teacher, is going to give it to you. He did it alone, sitting under a tree. I am afraid it is easy to lose sight of that when its a golden statue on the altar that people are bowing and prostrating to. Having said that, is nice to feel a part of a group of like-minded people. I think just meditating with a group is good now and then. Thanks for your encouragement and clarity, Deva. It's good to get insight from other people sometimes, just to make sure I'm not fooling myself. I am encouraged to try Buddhism for many personal reasons. Also, I think after kicking and clawing my way out of christianity, I see through the trappings of organized religion enough so I won't be taken in as I was before. I like the idea of having a community to interact with from time to time, but also the potential to find my own path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 When I was still a fundie, I thought that white people (okay, non-Asian westerners, because I must include Tina Turner and Herbie Hancock) who were into Buddhism basically personified the whole postmodern "cafeteria/customizable" religion phenomenon. Or, as my pastor used to say, "because it's what they want to hear." Or as Jesus said (or was it Paul?), false prophets saying things that "tickle their ears." So while I pitied Asian people who were raised in it against their will (much like many of y'all were raised against your will in Christianity), I harbored considerable loathing for non-Asian Westerners who were into that stuff, though slightly less than I despised Wiccans/NeoPagans because the latter seemed to be more directly, deliberately oppositional. Now, of course, I am indifferent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ephymeris Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 When I was still a fundie, I thought that white people (okay, non-Asian westerners, because I must include Tina Turner and Herbie Hancock) who were into Buddhism basically personified the whole postmodern "cafeteria/customizable" religion phenomenon. Or, as my pastor used to say, "because it's what they want to hear." Or as Jesus said (or was it Paul?), false prophets saying things that "tickle their ears." So while I pitied Asian people who were raised in it against their will (much like many of y'all were raised against your will in Christianity), I harbored considerable loathing for non-Asian Westerners who were into that stuff, though slightly less than I despised Wiccans/NeoPagans because the latter seemed to be more directly, deliberately oppositional. Now, of course, I am indifferent. Wow. Erm, okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Yeah, I was a real asshole back then, wasn't I? Maybe I still am a little bit, in terms of me having been compelled to bring all that up on this thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ephymeris Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Yeah, I was a real asshole back then, wasn't I? Maybe I still am a little bit, in terms of me having been compelled to bring all that up on this thread.... Nah, its cool I was just confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Nah, its cool I was just confused. I guess you could say I've still got a bit of fundie baggage, and am slowly trying to put aside my hostility and excessive incredulity when it comes to eastern religions, neo-paganism, new age, humanism, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highvoltage Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 I have a friend who is Buddhist and today I went with her to celebrate Vesak Day at a temple. It was a lovely rite and people were quite friendly and there was really no pressure. Though I have been to several nonreligious meditation functions, I haven't been in a house of worship in at least 3 years now. I was surprised to feel very uncomfortable with sections of the service that reminded me of christian services such as chanting/singing, going down to the front of the temple to perform a rite, the Buddhist idea of heaven and hell, and even the bowing to a carven image of the Buddha. It surprised me that I would feel this way. I think my guard is still up after my terrible experiences with church and the intense feeling of betrayal from a god that never existed. I'm not in the market for a deity but I appreciate Buddhist practices and philosophy and I think I would like these aspects reflected in my own life. I love meditation and mindfulness so I'm tentatively going down this path to see if I can meet my "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) needs without breaking my own boundries. I wonder if the attempt is even worth it since I have my own stipulations to what I will allow myself to experience. My boundries are as follows: 1. I refuse to believe there is a magic, invisible, personified god. 2. I refuse to worship anything or anyone (though I feel okay showing reverence to important ideals and historical figures for their contributions). 3. I refuse to believe I am defective and in need of a gross overhaul to be presentable/salvageable to anyone/thing. I don't know what, if any, spiritual awakening can occur within my own boundries or if I'm being too closed minded but I'm not willing to put my heart on the line for false hopes, ideals, and deity. Do these things sound unreasonable? Am I being too cautious? I do not want to go down the same road I did with christianity, I'm guarding my heart closely this time. That sounds completely reasonable to me. As a matter of fact, it sounds like where I am right now also. It's taken me about 4 years since leaving xtianity to realize that I really think I could benefit from some sort of spiritual beliefs or practices. And I say "spiritual" because I can't think of a better term to use; I mean it in the sense of exploring a more emotional side of me, becoming more mindful, or seeking out a deeper connection with the natural world around me. I've learned that even though the universe seems to be driven entirely by natural law, and even though logic and reason are king when it comes to understanding how the world operates, there may be more to being human than just logic and reason. Holding spiritual beliefs about the world doesn't have to imply that those beliefs must represent something "real" in world around us, but they can still hold meaning for us in the way we experience that world. I just recently read the Tao Te Ching, which has got me pretty interested in exploring Taoism. Unlike Buddhism, there doesn't seem to be any emphasis at all on the supernatural or afterlifes, or on insisting that in order to avoid suffering we must give up all desire. It's about finding inner peace and happiness by discovering who you are and living accordingly in this life. It's about stopping to smell the roses, and not being in such a hurry all the time. At least that's what I understand of it so far, and of course there's much more to it than just that. Best of luck to you. I hope you find what you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I just recently read the Tao Te Ching, which has got me pretty interested in exploring Taoism. Unlike Buddhism, there doesn't seem to be any emphasis at all on the supernatural or afterlifes, or on insisting that in order to avoid suffering we must give up all desire. It's about finding inner peace and happiness by discovering who you are and living accordingly in this life. It's about stopping to smell the roses, and not being in such a hurry all the time. At least that's what I understand of it so far, and of course there's much more to it than just that. Hello HV, Like Buddhism, Taoism is deeply intertwined in the folkways of it's culture including the supernatural. Taoists are famous for their search for immortality through alchemy, I-Ching divination, charms and talismans. In modern times, Taoists have tried to separate into philosophical and religious views, which is a good thing if Taoism wishes to stake a claim in Western thought. It's a good path. Now to directly address your claims concerning Buddhism. Case 1: "Unlike Buddhism, there doesn't seem to be any emphasis at all on the (a)supernatural or (b)afterlife" (a) Buddhism places no emphasis on the supernatural. In some sutras, supernatural powers (siddhis) are mentioned as being real, but the teaching is that such things serve as a distraction from the Dharma. ( Often the "Buddhist" afterlife model is cultural afterlife beliefs superimposed onto the model of the 6 Samsaric realms. What is often lost in the literal interpretation of such ideas is that Gautama taught that rebirth was bad...or rather that the craving for a better rebirth or fear of a lower one are also barriers to attaining enlightenment. Not to mention the fact that since Buddhism teaches that there is no intrinsic self, what lives on? Suzuki Shosan, whose teachings my practice is influenced by, stated the Samsaric realms in a more reasonable model. "In your anger you are in hell. In your desire you are as a hungry ghost." Which brings me to... Case 2: "insisting that in order to avoid suffering we must give up all desire." Next to rebirth, probably the most popular misconception of Buddhist thought. The word translated as "suffering" is dukkha and actually refers to a wheel that is out of round. Psychologically, a sense of dissatisfaction with the world as it is. Dukkha could more easily be described as a sense of existential angst. This symptom is Gautama's first truth. The second truth, the cause of dukkha, is that we crave the world to be different. We construct this fantasy of the way we want the world and when it collides with the way the world is we "suffer". Gautama's third truth is the cessation of dukkha. "Suffering is optional" as some put it. It's not about renouncing the world, it's about being able to let go of these things that get in the way of experiencing life fully right here and right now without all of the "could be" "should be" and "would be" that we attach as conditions to happiness. The fourth truth is the path to the cessation of dukkha. Though it is stated as an 8 fold path, it can be boiled down to three focii: Cultivating Wisdom (prajna), Ethical living (sila), and developing concentration through meditation (samadhi). These four statements are the foundation of Buddhist thought. There is nothing about an afterlife, supernatural influence, or external means of salvation. Enlightenment is right here in this life which is a flash of lightning on a world that is a flash of lighting. Cheers. R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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