TAP

[Guest Zoe Grace]

TAP,

 

Hey, It appears you are back, at least in a limited fashion. Are you still in India or are you actually BACK.

 

You told us before you left for India that you needed some time while in India away from all extrenal influences so you could read and study the bible and your beliefs etc.

 

We are all interested in hearing the feedback that was promised. If you are still in India...then I suppose we can wait a bit longer, if you are back, we'd all really like to know what you have discovered...what your positions are, etc.

 

For example...you were examining your beliefs on Hell: have they changed? if yes, why? If no, why?

 

Many of us have invested a lot of time in speaking with you on these matters and while you are by no means required to change your views or abandon your faith, we would all like to be reassured that our arguments and our pain have not been swept under the rug. That you've confronted such issues honestly and that you have views now to share...pro or con and why.

 

If you are here just to "play" in the off topic sections...that's cool. But you DO come to the debate forum...and ocassionally you DO participate in a religious discussion. When you do it feels as if we aren't really allowed to be real with you and you aren't being real with us.

 

So many of us have formed some type of "attachment to you" that it's practically anathema to call you out on what we would never let go from another member. Please decide which sandbox you want to play in. If you want to play in both, fine. But while in the adult sandbox there are rules. Those rules include not running off when the discussion gets too uncomfortable.

 

You may not feel compelled to "share the message" with us because we've already heard it, and yet the bible says that you should always be ready to give an account for what you believe. what exactly DO you believe and why? Are you willing to give an account?

 

I often wonder if you are being "real" with us. Are you? Is your sincerety real or is it a "look what a nice christian I am" facade? Because it seems like you take the pain of many of the members here very lightly...brush it off...with "oh I'm sorry, but welcome, have a nice time here." We would really like to understand you TAP, that means ALL of you, not just the "nice" girl you are showing us.

 

And you know...maybe you ARE genuinely nice like REACH, but we will only know that if you engage in more than a surface discussion with us now won't we?

[Fweethawt]

Umm... Zoe?

 

You forgot somethin'.

 

TAP is supposed to tell us about the miracles that she witnessed while she was gone too.

 

You know, those "miracles" that happen everywhere else outside of the United States because we are such a godless nation and all?

[Vixentrox]

Umm... Zoe?

 

You forgot somethin'. 

 

TAP is supposed to tell us about the miracles that she witnessed while she was gone too.

 

You know, those "miracles" that happen everywhere else outside of the United States because we are such a godless nation and all? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, supposedly they happen more in the third world becuase of faith.....and not becuase of unsophistication and superstition's of the uneducated and easily duped.

[Checkmate]

Speaking of miracles...

 

Who’s worse? The Christian who defends the lack of miracles by arguing that “God” is no longer in the Miracle Business? (A NEW “dispensation”.) Despite the fact that Mark 16 says miracles and signs would FOLLOW those who believe in Jesus. Never mind that Jesus PROMISED to do ANYTHING asked of Him in HIS name. Never mind that Jesus promised that “greater things” His believers would do. Never mind that Jesus said that if His believers had “faith as small as a mustard seed” they could remove mountains. Never mind ALL these outrageous claims—God is OUT of “miracles”. Besides, it is not proper to “test god”!

 

Or, is it the Christian who steadfastly claims that “God” DOES still do miracles, but just not around NON-believers and cameras. But only in remote third world nations, or on stage with Benny Hinn, and then only unprovable “healings”. Or maybe things that could be mistaken for accidents or random chance. Such as the “miracle” of a hurricane changing course and sparing one town and destroying another. (I suppose the OTHER town’s prayers were ignored!)

 

Who is more ridiculous? The Christian who DENIES that the miracles of “God” are for today? Or the Christian who BOASTS of miracles even though they can’t produce one?

 

Put these two breeds of Xian together and you will see the fur fly as they argue about miracles. Even Xians call each other liars and unbelievers when it comes to the magical powers of their “God”.

 

And yet they expect US to believe they have cornered the market on “truth”.

 

Yeah. Whatever.

[Merlinfmct87]

I'm probably crazy and all that...

 

But I really wonder at your motives here, Zoe. What are you trying to do, here?

 

Merlin

[Dio]

It's the Inquisition in reverse.

[Totallyatpeace]

I'll do my best here, Zoe.

 

Tap

 

 

TAP,

 

Hey, It appears you are back, at least in a limited fashion. Are you still in India or are you actually BACK.

 

I have been back for a week but I have been ill. I'm fine now, for the most part.

 

You told us before you left for India that you needed some time while in India away from all external influences so you could read and study the bible and your beliefs etc.

 

Which I did. I was quite busy there but when I had alone time I read the OT from Genesis to Ezra. I'm still working my way through it. I spent a lot of time talking with people, some from my faith, many Hindus and even an Atheist that I had dinner with one evening. He asked if he could join me at my table for dinner......I said yes and then he sat down and said...."I want you to know that I don't believe there are any gods." That was his first words. It actually turned into one of the best conversations. I loved it. Give and take.....just enjoying each other's company.

 

I also spent quite a bit time in prayer.........actually asking God to meet me there. I wanted to feel Him and know that I mattered to Him. I wanted the personal encounter that some people talk about and I haven't felt for quite some time.

 

We are all interested in hearing the feedback that was promised. If you are still in India...then I suppose we can wait a bit longer, if you are back, we'd all really like to know what you have discovered...what your positions are, etc.

 

For example...you were examining your beliefs on Hell: have they changed? if yes, why? If no, why?

 

I have. I did the Hebrew and Greek study and looked up every reference to hell. I found that in the OT hell is always referred to as death, the pit or the grave. It is never referred to as eternal torment. In the NT, I found the eternal torment in revelation and also one other place.....don't know off the top of my head. I believe it was Christ's words and if you want to know I'll look it up. (but you already know)

 

My beliefs on hell have only changed in the sense that I have more knowledge about it now and have started enquiring of my own Pastor and family (Father) as to why this is.

 

Many of us have invested a lot of time in speaking with you on these matters and while you are by no means required to change your views or abandon your faith, we would all like to be reassured that our arguments and our pain have not been swept under the rug. That you've confronted such issues honestly and that you have views now to share...pro or con and why.

 

Zoe....when I have questions.........I choose very carefully who I talk to about my faith. I have spent a great deal of time talking about what I believe and asking my questions but I haven't done it on the forum. If you doubt that.......ask those who are regulars in IRC. THAT is where I do my talking and questioning. They are able to have a good conversation without slander. They are able to discuss back and forth without it becoming personal or filled with filth. I figured that out a while back.

 

If you are here just to "play" in the off topic sections...that's cool. But you DO come to the debate forum...and occasionally you DO participate in a religious discussion. When you do it feels as if we aren't really allowed to be real with you and you aren't being real with us.

 

I am rarely in "Off-Topic anymore unless it's a Birthday wish. I haven't "played" in a long time. When I respond to something in the debate forum, it's usually because I am correcting something that has been presented as truth, and is not........such as this.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...indpost&p=64706

 

or ranting with my fellow educator.....

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...indpost&p=64926

 

Who cares? Ro-Bear and I have something in common and have talked about school for about a year......usually via PM. I happened to understand his POV in his rant.

 

So many of us have formed some type of "attachment to you" that it's practically anathema to call you out on what we would never let go from another member. Please decide which sandbox you want to play in. If you want to play in both, fine. But while in the adult sandbox there are rules. Those rules include not running off when the discussion gets too uncomfortable.

 

This is why I don't post too often anymore. Those that I spend time talking with have taken the time to get to know me and don't see me as a religion. They see me as a whole person and we talk about much more than faith. However, these same people are able to carry on a decent conversation when I do have questions and they allow me to vent. I also, listen to their vents and rants.

 

As far as playing in both "sandboxes" .......you don't make my rules and I have responded but most of the time you don't like how I respond and because of that.....don't consider it a finished topic. If I don't agree with you.....it doesn't mean the discussion should continue. It's the very reason I rarely enter the debate topics. I don't expect you to see it my way so why should I continue? My beliefs are based on faith.......I've said that over and over and that's something that is very personal and your facts aren't going to change that any more than my faith is going to change you.

 

You may not feel compelled to "share the message" with us because we've already heard it, and yet the bible says that you should always be ready to give an account for what you believe. what exactly DO you believe and why? Are you willing to give an account?

 

Here it is. I'm going to lay it all out there so you can never say again that you haven't heard me share my faith.

 

I believe in a literal 6 day creation. I have always believed in a young earth but also see reasonable argument for the "Gap Theory"..... a long space in time prior to the 6 day creation. This really doesn't matter to me because it doesn't effect my faith one way or the other and its a waste of time for me to spend time on this. I gave it a year and came to the conclusion that I still don't know.

 

I believe (and this is for you TFT ) that the OT and actually everything in the OT is pointing toward the coming Messiah. There are many things in the OT that I don't like and when I read it, I get angry or disturbed inside. However, I see the whole story of a chosen people being led out of bondage and into faith in Christ and salvation. The battles that took place....some by God's design, some not....including your precious kittens.....were all there for a purpose. Either to remove those who were against God and his plan for the Israelites (his chosen people) and his ultimate plan of a coming Savior, or against the Israelites themselves, when they turned against God.

 

Salvation is not for the Jew only because as Gentiles we have been grafted in. Christ's coming was to save ALL and the plan of redemption was there from the beginning....from "the fall" in the garden.

 

I believe that Jesus was and is the Son of God. I believe that he was crucified, died, was buried and rose from the grave three days later. I believe that He is now at the right hand of God interceding just as He said He would be. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is here to lead us and guide us as we live our daily lives.

 

I also believe that Christ will return someday and take those who have put their trust in him.......back to heaven with him.......first the dead in Christ and then the living. I believe those who have not accepted Christ will spend eternity separated from God.......also known as hell. (whether that be a fiery lake or death in the grave)

 

This is my beliefs. You asked for the specifics and I have stated it all. I know that you disagree with everything I just said and I know you see it as a fairy tale. That doesn't matter to me because it is my FAITH. It's what I believe. You struggle with the fact that my God could send you to hell and I really don't understand that because if you believe there is no God.......what should it matter to you? I don't go around preaching hell-fire and shaking my fist and pointing my judgmental finger at anyone. You choose......I choose..... and that's it. One day.....one of us will know. I could be wrong---- and I have said that all along. I don't think so.

 

 

I often wonder if you are being "real" with us. Are you? Is your sincerely real or is it a "look what a nice christian I am" facade? Because it seems like you take the pain of many of the members here very lightly...brush it off...with "oh I'm sorry, but welcome, have a nice time here." We would really like to understand you TAP, that means ALL of you, not just the "nice" girl you are showing us.

 

This clearly shows that you don't know me. I am very genuine and there are also a few people here that can tell you I have moments when I'm not very nice. However......you won't likely see that side of me on the Forum. I also have some class. TK421? came close to seeing that side of me a few days ago. If you need proof that I can be "normal" or "genuine" I suggest you talk to Ericf or Small Stone or Clear View. They have seen me spit venom, cry and also be vulgar, when I shouldn't have been. The way I present myself on the forum is similar to the way I handle an office conversation......I try and keep it professional. If you don't like that an you'd like me to see me let loose......come to IRC.

 

And you know...maybe you ARE genuinely nice like REACH, but we will only know that if you engage in more than a surface discussion with us now won't we?

 

I respect Reach but we are nothing alike. I think many thought that I would de-convert and become a "Reach". She is a nice person. That's all I'm going to say about that.

 

by the way...if you did turn out to be not totally "nice" all the time...we might all still like you. Hell I'm a raving lunatic bitch and many members here seem to like me ok.

 

See above.......I can be a real witch.

 

I'm sure I annoy the piss out of some and ruffle the feathers of others, but that's just the price of me being myself. (not that I'm never in the wrong in the way I present myself. I've hurt those I care very much for by my words in the past...should have rethought that...but in general...my bitchiness doesn't seem to lessen who i am in the eyes of people.)

 

Zoe......when I first met you.....I really liked you and you made me laugh. However....there is something else that I saw that made me realize I couldn't converse with you about my faith. You seemed overly bitter and I needed to talk to someone who wasn't. There are many Ex-Cer's here who have walked away from their faith and are content. They are truly at peace and enjoy talking about it without all the anger. When someone here is extremely bitter and is angry inside and lumping all Christians into one category of "people who should be shot" (and that is certainly not referring to you, Zoe but another post)......I tend to take my conversations elsewhere.

 

In fact......turn that around. There are many Christians who have joined here who have lumped all of you into a category of......"never were really Christians" or "all Christians that are just living in sin" etc...... I have never done that with any of you. I see each of you as individuals with struggles not unlike my own. This is your battle that you're dealing with and I have my own battle that I am dealing with.

 

Different subject.........Miracles:

 

I didn't see one thing that you would agree is a miracle while I was in India. I prayed for one and I even asked a few people over there to let me see a miracle actually take place. What I did see were 40 miracles........40 young girls that had been rescued from the slums and given new life. I know that we, as Christians are to be the hands and feet of Christ.....doing the same work that he did while on earth. That's what I saw. Not a miracle to you......not really a miracle to me, either.......but certainly enough for me to see the love of Christ is real.

 

I also know you and others won't agree with that. That doesn't matter to me at all.....because I was there and I saw it. However.....I am also aware that anyone, regardless of faith, has the ability to change the life of 40 girls....if they really want to.

 

Here is my final thought in this post......

 

I hope I have answered your questions and you are satisfied......though I know down inside.....to some of you......you most likely won't be unless I denounce my beliefs and join your Ex-C world.

 

Guess what? It isn't going to happen.

 

 

**edited for spelling, as usual.

[thomas]

.....I know you see it as a fairy tale. That doesn't matter to me because it is my FAITH. It's what I believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And this is what I do not understand about you TAP. How can you just present your perspective here, without debating the assumptions that this perspective relies on????????????

 

I do not understand.

[Ro-bear]

I like to kid TAP about being a goody two-shoes, but I've never doubted her sincerity. She's a genuinely nice person. She's real. She gets angry, and she can be hurt. She prefers to internalize it and give only measured responses. I'm the same way, reserved. People should respect the ways others choose to express themselves.

 

I don't know why or how TAP believes as she does. She knows how I feel about Young Earth Creationism. Her belief doesn't seem to be an impediment to our friendship. My problem with Christianity and religion in general stems from the imposition of them by their followers. TAP has never sought to impose her beliefs upon me. I don't impose mine upon her. I hope this thread has cleared the air a bit. TAP has responded. No one has to like her response or agree with it.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Tap

My beliefs are based on faith.......I've said that over and over and that's something that is very personal and your facts aren't going to change that any more than my faith is going to change you.

In all things we must have a method to honestly meet our goals. You have no real method. This statement proves that you have defeated yourself before you even started no matter the changes you might have made in your perception of the bible. As far as the hell doctrine; you used reason here and not faith. You have admited as much in your sharing, but over all you have defeated yourself if you can not put aside faith and use reason instead, which is a prerequisite in any endeavor in HONESTLY trying to KNOW anything.

 

I challenge you to demonstrate coherently how Faith can be used in the REAL world outside of your own mind. Can you do this fallacy free?

 

The difference between reason and xianities perversion of real faith is that reason can be demonstrated to work in the REAL world were as this "faith" you speak of can not.

 

That is precisely why people my age can be persuaded to drop faith like the bad habit it is. I can give a person an honest confidence in reason and freethought by demonstration and not by pure emotionalism......bribes ,threats and blind faith is xianities only hook, and young people are not so stupid as some might think.

 

Until you can eyeball the bible, "Faith" being put aside, you have defeated yourself and are not being honest.

 

If you think people have to respect counterfiet faith over contingent faith you are mistaken.

 

Because of biblical teachings, some were down the line every xer will, from time to time, desriminate based on dishonest faith that is TOTALY lacking in rational thinking. Xers have no right to descriminate on any issue if all they have is the perverted version of "faith" as thier ruler and scales. Every person can be irrational and perhaps change thier mind at a later date by sharing opinions and facts, but xian "faith" is the antithesis to this process. It is holding us al back and I will not accept your "faith" as a legitimate answer.

[Totallyatpeace]

It is holding us al back and I will not accept your "faith" as a legitimate answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let me clue you in on something.

 

I'm not trying to convince you.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Let me clue you in on something.

 

I'm not trying to convince you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You were trying to show how you have been honestly soul searching....

 

I merely shed some light on the terrain. If we want to know anything we must first be honest. Real faith is the end result got through reason. Real faith is not trying to prove to yourself that your priori belief can fit the facts. It's the other way around. Facts/evidences lead to faith through reason alone.

 

Tap

My beliefs are based on faith.......I've said that over and over and that's something that is very personal and your facts aren't going to change that any more than my faith is going to change you.

 

You have defeated yourself overall before you even started.

 

I challenge you to demonstrate coherently how the N.T. concept of Faith can be used in the REAL world outside of your own mind. Can you do this fallacy free?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Guys, TAP and Merlin and everyone, this is on a different tack but not really hijacking:

 

how does one get into the IRC chat room? I have MSN instant messenger but am too computer illiterate to figure out how to enter the chat room. If anyone can either explain it or point me to where the explanation is, I will send a happy face message or something! I looked around in the Help feature but didn't see anything on IRC.

 

TAP, at first I thought IRC was International Rescue Commission!

[Totallyatpeace]

 

I can understand that.  I have no personal issues with you as long as you don't start things you can't finish in the forums.

I don't see you as a religion.  i've said it more than once.  you aren't my pet project and i personally don't care if you deconvert or not...but i did feel yanked around because of the refusal to finish topics started.  I don't care WHAT you end up believing or not believing...I just want to know that whatever you say, you are being straight with us.

fair enough. 

it's not about you not agreeing with me...it's about a lot of things we just don't know where the hell you stand...and you're right, it's your personal business...you don't HAVE to share, and you can stop sharing at any point...it just pisses people off when you leave them hanging.  When someone asks a question and you take it as an attack or debate or whatever and suddenly you bow out of the conversation completely because the question wasn't worded politely enough or whatever.

thank you for being candid.  and you are right i obviously disagree with it all, but so does every ex-c on here or we wouldn't be ex-c's but i'm not going to debate it with you.  because i know you don't want to debate and that's fine.  but now i know who you are religiously and where you stand.

I don't struggle with the fact that god could send me to hell.  god can't send me to hell because he's not real.  however the hell doctrine is a very harmful doctrine...it was for me and it continues to be for many people.  grown adults brainwash their children with this horrible concept teaching them to live in fear of it.  it's sick and twisted.  i'm severely disturbed by anyone who can believe in a place like hell and a "loving god" who sends you there or "allows you to choose to go there" and can still love such a god.  To me it's sick and disgusting and "stockholm syndrome" or "battered wife syndrome" is the only thing that makes this disconnect even possible.  I find it seriously disturbing that "nice people" can hold such hateful and harmful beliefs.  As for "god" i don't give a rip about god, god isn't real.  But people who believe in such a being are real and they are a very real threat to sane society.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fair enough. If someone feels I've harmed then they should step up and let me know.

 

Thank you, Zoe.

 

Tap

[Caretaker]

how does one get into the IRC chat room?  I have MSN instant messenger but am too computer illiterate to figure out how to enter the chat room.  If anyone can either explain it or point me to where the explanation is, I will send a happy face message or something!  I looked around in the Help feature but didn't see anything on IRC.

 

Add me.... localhost00 at hotmail.com

[Totallyatpeace]

Guys, TAP and Merlin and everyone, this is on a different tack but not really hijacking:

 

how does one get into the IRC chat room?  I have MSN instant messenger but am too computer illiterate to figure out how to enter the chat room.  If anyone can either explain it or point me to where the explanation is, I will send a happy face message or something!  I looked around in the Help feature but didn't see anything on IRC.

 

TAP, at first I thought IRC was International Rescue Commission!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd be happy to show you. See your PM's.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Let me clue you in on something.

 

I'm not trying to convince you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You were trying to show how you have been honestly soul searching....

 

I merely shed some light on the terrain. If we want to know anything we must first be honest. Real faith is the end result got through reason. Real faith is not trying to prove to yourself that your a priori belief can fit the facts. It's the other way around. Facts/evidences lead to faith through reason alone.

 

Tap

My beliefs are based on faith.......I've said that over and over and that's something that is very personal and your facts aren't going to change that any more than my faith is going to change you.

 

You have defeated yourself overall before you even started.

 

I challenge you to demonstrate coherently how the N.T. concept of Faith can be used in the REAL world outside of your own mind. Can you do this fallacy free?

[Merlinfmct87]

Guys, TAP and Merlin and everyone, this is on a different tack but not really hijacking:

 

how does one get into the IRC chat room?  I have MSN instant messenger but am too computer illiterate to figure out how to enter the chat room.  If anyone can either explain it or point me to where the explanation is, I will send a happy face message or something!  I looked around in the Help feature but didn't see anything on IRC.

 

TAP, at first I thought IRC was International Rescue Commission!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just click "IRC Chat" at the top of the web page.

 

Merlin

[Totallyatpeace]

You were trying to show how you have been honestly soul searching....

 

I merely shed some light on the terrain. If we want to know anything we must first be honest. Real faith is the end result got through reason. Real faith is not trying to prove to yourself that your a priori belief can fit the facts. It's the other way around. Facts/evidences lead to faith through reason alone.

You have defeated yourself overall before you even started.

 

I challenge you to demonstrate coherently how the N.T. concept of Faith can be used in the REAL world outside of your own mind. Can you do this fallacy free?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You seemed to have forgotten that I walked away from Christianity for two years. I've been on the other side.

 

I came back.

[dogmatically_challenged]

she doesn't want to challenge it.  she doesn't want to argue it.  she just doesn't want to.  nothing you can do.  just let her be. (and that's not a "defense" of tap...that's just acknowledging the futility of even messing with it.)  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisley. She hasn't a leg to stand on in her beliefs. Also she can never truly appreciate what others have gone through until she does put the bible to the test without blind faith giving her an a priori bias. She supports and probably teaches that christ is our salvation and that biblical values are PERFECTLY good for teaching morality. She does damage just through that alone, and she refuses to test to really see if her belief system is damaging.

[dogmatically_challenged]

You seemed to have forgotten that I walked away from Christianity for two years. I've been on the other side.

 

I came back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People can change thier minds back and forth based soley on emotionalism.

 

 

This is a dodge to my question. It is a non-answer.

 

I am talking to YOU and my questions are irrelevant to whether or not people should be friends with you. People are worthy of friendship despite thier flaws. Everyone has merit also. The fact that we like you is proof of that. I feel that I am doing you no favors if I let you "think" your "Faith" is legitimate and respectable. Xianity has zero respect for the other peoples of the planet nor does it teach self respect. That aside if I catch you in the offtopic threads I will be friendly as I see no reason not to be.

 

Fair enough. If someone feels I've harmed then they should step up and let me know.

 

Thank you, Zoe.

 

Tap

You asked. The only way you can ever understand is to put aside your "faith" and emotionalism and let reason take you were ever the facts lead you.

[Guest bdp]

d_c, you're being an asshole. shut the fuck up already.

 

bdp

[dogmatically_challenged]

d_c, you're being an asshole.  shut the fuck up already.

 

bdp

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't think so. Can you elaborate bpd? I can change my mind you know. PM me or post your thoughts here. I'm easy either way.

 

If not, thank you for your conjecture. It was most enlightening.

 

 

( I can see that you don't like to see others being bullied. I am sorry that you think that is what I am doing. I will not hold decency against you.)

[Lanakila]

d_c, you're being an asshole.  shut the fuck up already.

 

bdp

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't think so. DC has every right to post as he sees fit here. TAP can respond or not. She doesn't need you to protect her.

[Totallyatpeace]

I don't think so. DC has every right to post as he sees fit here. TAP can respond or not. She doesn't need you to protect her. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you.

 

Zoe asked me questions and I answered them. My response was for her.

 

DC....your questions have been answered over and over and over, if not by me, then by someone I agree with. Argument for the sake of argument means nothing to me. I am not here sharing my views with Zoe to win anyone over----- so find somebody who is to argue with.

 

That's my last word to you.