TheMathGuy Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I had the following discussion with a relative a few days back and I am interested in hearing about other ex-Christians who might have had similar experiences with their fundie relatives. Do you think my response was appropriate? What do you feel is the "correct" way to deal with such people? It began with the following post to a public blog of mine: Amidst all the anti-psychiatry b.s. that is floating around on the internet these days, I came across a gem of light on YouTube. He also points out the danger of religiously-motivated opposition of psychiatry--how superstition leads people to suspend critical thinking and make irrational and dangerous choices ( one of the many reasons I despise religion ):In Defense of Psychiatry To which the following response thread ensued: HIM: I will not deny that psychology/psychiatry is helpful in some cases, but at the same time I refuse to settle for band-aid and not actually deal with the REAL problem. ME: But what if the REAL problem IS a chemical imbalance? Or don't you think that's possible? HIM: The chemical imbalance is merely a symptom of the real problem. ME: And how about a genetic disorder? Are you going to say that a faulty gene in someone's DNA is also just a "symptom" of some other problem? HIM: My point is that I firmly hold to the belief that the God of the universe can alter our chemical content and DNA. HE is in control. Why settle for the band-aid of the world when you can have complete healing! (aside--this is the main reason I think this is a cult) ME: But you're saying people should reject all psychology, Christian or not. However, I have a feeling you would NOT say that people should reject, say anesthetics when they are having a tooth pulled (though if you do actually think this, feel free to correct me). What is your reason for rejecting one and accepting the other? HIM: Anesthetics do not alter your mindset - they effect your body's ability to feel pain. Psyche drugs have a profound effect on your mood/mindset, thinking, etc.. I believe that psyche drugs actually desensitize us and in effect open the door wide to demonic influence without our being aware of it. ME: I would disagree. Anesthetics DO alter your mindset rather profoundly--a person who is in extreme pain is going to be in a very different mental state than someone who is not! Even such things as caffeine, alcohol, sugar, wheat gluten and various plant products alter our minds. And some brain drugs do not desensitize the brain, but rather do the exact opposite and increase sensitization. I think the situation is not so simple or black-and-white as you are portraying here. Is every effect upon the brain, even if it is well understood, _necessarily_ bad? ME: As for the "demonic possession" argument, what can I say? I think this is EXACTLY the problem. People are willing to irrationally embrace paranoia and fear for reasons that cannot be supported by the slightest bit of empirical evidence. When I ask people why they think anything having to do with the mind is automatically a road to "demon possession", or why they think mental illness is actually caused by "demons", not chemicals, environmental factors or genetics--they cannot give me any good reasons for thinking this. Their fear is based on nothing more than their own ignorance about how the brain actually works. What can I possibly say to this? (other than perhaps "go read a book about neurology") HIM: I wish to point out that being wide awake as a result of consuming a caffeinated beverage is much different and less harmful than being drugged up or drunk. They are not the same and it is fruitless to lump them together. HIM: Allow me to clarify that I do not think that demons cause mental illness any more than I think they cause one to be drunk. People have a free will and make choices. An individual has to choose drink too much. And even in the case of the drunk or drug addict that has severely impaired judgment - they still make the choice each time they dope up or get drunk... and they still made the choice that started the whole destructive progression. ME: It seems like we are shifting into the question about the comparative harmfulness of various drugs, which I will certainly admit there are some pretty significant differences. But when, for example an antipsychotic drug for the treatment of schizophrenia gets researched in clinical trials and is proven safe and effective beyond all reasonable doubt, why shouldn't we give it to schizophrenics to help ease the burden of their symptoms? Symptoms which, if left untreated, can result in horrific suffering on their part. ME: The only argument I've seen you make against this so far is that it would open the schizophrenics mind up to demonic possession, but exactly how would this demonic possession happen and why? Defend your position! It could just as easily be argued that schizophrenia ITSELF opens the schizophrenics mind up to demonic possession. When you don't understand _how_ the antipsychotic drug is reducing the schizophrenics symptoms or _how_ those symptoms are caused by schizophrenia in the first place, then you cannot justifiably make such claims. It is nothing more than an argument from ignorance and fear--an irrational generalized fear of ALL drugs labeled as "psychiatric drugs", regardless of whatever evidence might exist for their safety and efficacy. I'm not saying there aren't _some_ psychiatric drugs and _some_ situations in which they could be dangerous--that's why we insist they be taken under the supervision of a well qualified professional, but ALL OF THEM??? The next thing I got was a message he sent directly to me: Being blunt I don't know how to say this any other way but bluntly. I once looked up to you and thought you were one of the most intelligent people I was privileged to know. Now, much to my dismay, you have shown yourself to be completely blind to matters of truth. Your own analytical thinking and need to explain everything has completely blinded you to Christ and the wonder of salvation. But i have not lost hope! Like it or not, I pray for you EVERY SINGLE DAY... and have for some time now! It's not that I view you as inferior - but that I want you in heaven with me when that day arrives! I don't want to lose you to Satan and an eternity in hell! I love you and I care deeply for you. Our discussion is over. I am sick of debating with you. I do not owe you an explanation or proof. I have no obligation to defend my beliefs to you. The day will come when you WILL see clearly; I only pray that this will not happen on Judgement Day. To which I replied: re: Being blunt You started it. Of course you must know that I think it is you who is completely blind to the truth and has been sucked into a dangerous cult. If you make a comment on my page and then refuse to defend it, just step back from yourself for a moment and think about the message that sends. When, if ever, you should change your mind and decide you're willing to listen to reason, I'll still be here. Then I noticed he had deleted all of his comments from the original discussion. So I sent him another message: Terms of our discussion(s). I'm afraid I'm going to have to be blunt with you as well here. When it came to our discussion thread about the validity of psychiatry, I think you removing all of your comments was a very childish act on your part, and I do not intend to debate someone who is going to act like a child. The next time you post a comment disagreeing with something I say, I will ask you "Are you willing to defend this with reason? And do you agree not to pull anything sneaky like removing all of your comments?" If you answer "no", then the discussion will end right then and there. I will not put up with games. So what do you all think? Have you ever found yourself in a similar situation? Would you have done the same thing or if not what would you have done differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Once he said "God of the universe can alter our chemical content and DNA." then he's lost in terms of understanding psychology. Is God not also in charge of tumors or cholesterol clogged heart valves? What about broken limbs? Amputated limbs? (Here you can send him to http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/ ). Hell, should low lying towns build levees, or just trust that God will spare them from floods? He can't disregard psychology with that argument without disregarding all medicine and procedures, and other ways we as humans protect ourselves from nature. If he's willing to disregard all medicine then all you can say is that there is simply no proof that God has any effect on us, when there is extensive proofs that bacteria and chemicals do in a completely understandable manner. And even if you believed some invisible force could cure ADD or schizophrenia, why not pray as well as medicate. After all, God helps those who help themselves. Or do Fundies like that line... Psychology may not be flawless because brains are so complicated, but 'trust only in God' is even more flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 MathGuy, I like your last message. I would say that after the words "demon possession" were written the discussion was over. You can't reason with this. It is just another version of Jesus is the answer. That is, Jesus can cure anything, including all mental illness. How can you actually prove he doesn't? You can't talk to these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 MathGuy, His points are nuts. But not everyone suspicious of psychiatry comes at it from his position. The demon-free work of Dr. Peter Breggin is worth looking into. http://www.breggin.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMathGuy Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 MathGuy, His points are nuts. But not everyone suspicious of psychiatry comes at it from his position. The demon-free work of Dr. Peter Breggin is worth looking into. http://www.breggin.org/ And I'm entirely supportive of scientific criticism of psychiatry, since without the proper discussion and criticism no branch of science can hope to progress. But "God can change our DNA" and the "real" problem is actually human sin (never stated explicitly but his underlying assumption throughout the whole discussion)? Yeah, totally bonkers! But this is the same relative who thinks God miraculously healed his leg-length discrepancy and so now he can throw away his shoes with a special 1 inch thick sole in one shoe designed to correct for the discrepancy and give him correct posture. I'll have a hard time feeling sorry for him when he inevitably starts complaining of back pain! What's next? I half expect to hear from him one day that he's thrown away his glasses and is driving his car without them (since "we walk by faith and not by sight" could apply to driving as well!). I mean if God can do anything, well heck--why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 I would say that after the words "demon possession" were written the discussion was over. You can't reason with this. :whs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 I half expect to hear from him one day that he's thrown away his glasses and is driving his car without them (since "we walk by faith and not by sight" could apply to driving as well!). I mean if God can do anything, well heck--why not? Well hooray to him (if he does that). Nothing like goo' ol' natural selection. Provided he doesn't hurt any innocent bystanders when the crash comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defygravity Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Interesting conversation there, makes me sad and pissed that some people still believe that mental illness is "all in the head." I have suffered from clinical depression since 1997 but didn't realize it until a year after my dad died, 2003, when I hit rock bottom. If it wasn't for my happy pills, who knows where I might be now... maybe not here. I was still trying to be a Christian then and prayed and prayed but nothing ever changed. I mean shit why did I expect anything, my dad prayed and prayed to be healed of cancer and wasn't healed, he suffered and died! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Interesting conversation there, makes me sad and pissed that some people still believe that mental illness is "all in the head." I have suffered from clinical depression since 1997 but didn't realize it until a year after my dad died, 2003, when I hit rock bottom. If it wasn't for my happy pills, who knows where I might be now... maybe not here. I was still trying to be a Christian then and prayed and prayed but nothing ever changed. I mean shit why did I expect anything, my dad prayed and prayed to be healed of cancer and wasn't healed, he suffered and died! Agreed. I've lost several people in my life due to suicide. One was a housemate who I was sharing a town home with (I rented the basement and he stayed upstairs), and he committed suicide by fire several years ago on the weekend before Christmas. I am tired of people who think you can simply "think" yourself out of depression, bipolar disorder, etc. People need to have some empathy for others and quit blaming the victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 I believe X = I will not entertain any information contrary to X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Actually he lost me at "The chemical imbalance is merely a symptom of the real problem." Douchebag doesn't know what he's talking about and isn't open to hearing that he's wrong. I'd say you handled it just fine, and you're better off not talking to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 HIM: My point is that I firmly hold to the belief that the God of the universe can alter our chemical content and DNA. HE is in control. Why settle for the band-aid of the world when you can have complete healing! (aside--this is the main reason I think this is a cult) I would look up birth defects and send him a few pictures of god's perfectness with our DNA. I love the people who claim god heals all things. Ask your friend to have god start growing blown off limbs back on veterans. I have a step-mother he can heal, too. I doubt you can reason with the guy because he sounds hooked, line and sinker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 MathGuy, I think you handled the whole exchange really well. I would have probably pulled out an animated cuckoo-bird emoticon long before the dialog ended. I think you can always find more efffective ways to communciate in terms of future dialogs. That's a normal thing. But I think the dialog went well. The guy expects god to miraculously cure every schizophrenic, every psychotic, every child with autism, obsessive compulsive disorder or clinical depression. His god doesn't even heal everyone who is physically sick. So, for the glory of his g-o-d, he wants to leave millions of people in total mental agony? He wants to put members of society at risk? That is completely irrational and people need to speak out against that kind of insanity. Good for you for speaking out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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