The 'power' Of Prayer

[DarthOkkata]

I've had Christians try and tell me that they prayed for something and got it, and that this is somehow concrete proof of the existence of God, and a good reason I should believe in him.

 

Why?

 

I mean seriously, what exactly does that prove? I asked for something and it happened to me?

 

Say you 'pray' for something. There are three possible outcomes.

 

You get it.

 

God answered your prayer.

 

You don't get it right away, but you're patient, and keep praying. One day, you get what you asked for.

 

God answered your prayer.

 

It never happens. You pray and pray for what you want, but it just never comes.

 

It's part of God's plan.

 

There's no way God can be wrong or fail here. He literally cannot be the wrong answer or a failure.

 

The truth of the matter is that you can replace God with anything else, say a rock, or a tree, or Allah, or Krishna, or Satan, or Crom or Captain Kirk, or whatever. The result is exactly the same, at the same rate of success.

 

This can be explained by chance just as easily as God.

 

How exactly is Prayer proof of anything but random chance and perhaps a bit of effort by the one making the prayer or in some cases, another person? In fact, it's often something that can be reasonably expected even without God's help or intervention.

 

I've yet to encounter a prayer story from anyone who wasn't just too stupid to not see an obvious alternative answer to how it happened.

 

Every one of these is something I've actually really heard someone tell me in an attempt to explain why I should believe in Jesus because of 'the power of prayer'.

 

'I was sick and went to the hospital, but I prayed and was healed!'

 

As if the doctors, equipment, medicine there had nothing to do with it and everyone stood around looking at the patient waiting for God's hand to come down and wish the illness away.

 

'I needed money, and I was desperate. I prayed, and I found five dollars, the exact amount I needed on the sidewalk!'

 

As if no one has ever dropped five dollars on the sidewalk before. They never seem to mention that if they found five dollars, someone else -lost- it. Nope. God magically made it appear because they needed it. Nevermind how much the original owner might have needed it as well.

 

'I prayed, and I won the lottery!'

 

Because you bought a ticket.

 

'I was driving down the road and got hungry, and prayed to Jesus to help me. Wouldn't you know it, the next exit had a Waffle House!'

 

You don't say? I can't imagine how that might have happened. I mean, what with you looking for a place to stop and eat and all. I'm sure it never would have happened without the help of your Lord and Savior.

 

Prayer proves nothing but the power of random chance and the efforts of others in my experience. Some of these people make it sound like they couldn't wipe their own ass without Jesus.

 

How does it constitute proof of anything more than just that? Why should it convince me of anything beyond the existence of a little effort and chance?

 

'My car rolled over and caught fire. I thought I was gonna die for sure, but I prayed and prayed, and the firefighters came and pulled me out. Jesus saved me!'

 

No. Emergency services saved you. That's what they are for.

 

'There was a sign on the beach that said 'rip tide' but I knew the Lord was with me. So I went swimming anyway. I almost drowned, but I prayed to the Lord to save me, and he put his hand down and sent those men to pull me out of the water.'

 

They should have let you drown.

 

This is demonstrably stupid.

 

Nothing bugs me more tha people blaming God for the efforts of others, things that have perfectly rational explanations outside of God, and worst of all, for getting them out of their own stupidity.

 

If you're in a life threatening situation, you don't have time to pray. It's one thing to be trapped and injured, it's another to willfully stop and pray like some sort of deer in headlights despite being perfectly able to do things for yourself.

 

On top of that, studies have shown that Prayer doesn't even have a placebo effect. People who were ill actually got worse when they knew someone was praying for them.

 

Why on earth should I take any prayer as any sort of evidence for the 'truth' of Jesus.

 

It only seems to show that it's total BS when the actual evidence of it is inspected. The only power prayer seems to have in my experience, is making gullible and stupid people worse.

 

Why should I take prayer as proof or evidence of anything? Much less the truth of God.

 

God doesn't heal amputees, and prayer doesn't do any better than random chance.

 

Step up Christians, explain why should I trust it.

[LilaMae]

What gets me is that they don't mention all the times their prayers aren't answered. Or when Muslims or Jews get their prayers answered.

[DarthOkkata]

They do tend to leave the 'rate of failure' out of it.

 

When they do bring it up, it's always 'part of God's plan'. Sometimes they even mention a flimsy rationalization for why it didn't happen to them.

 

'If God had answered my prayer I never would have...[insert stupid rationalization here]'.

[Thurisaz]

All hail doublethink, as usual..

[Vixentrox]

My final test before departing Christianity was praying to a brick and praying to god. Same results that is, none at all.

[mwc]

They do tend to leave the 'rate of failure' out of it.

 

When they do bring it up, it's always 'part of God's plan'. Sometimes they even mention a flimsy rationalization for why it didn't happen to them.

 

'If God had answered my prayer I never would have...[insert stupid rationalization here]'.

And that's the funny thing. Not only do they ignore confirmation bias but they ignore "Jesus" as well.

 

There is no justification for "yes," "no" or "maybe" in the bible:

Matthew 21:22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

This doesn't convey the fullest meaning but it's close. The meaning is one of petition from an inferior to a superior (makes sense) and the concept of "belief" is really just that. If you honestly, deep down, believe that you will get what you asked for...then you will. It has nothing to do with "faith" in the "god" or anything like that but "faith" that you will get your petition.

 

So ask. Truly believe you will get your request. And you will get your request. These are the steps required for getting prayers answered.

 

The only thing stopping you from getting what you want is you. Doubting that you will get what you want is the killer here. Nothing else. "God" always comes through otherwise. It is always "yes" on the part of "god."

 

G.Mark echoes this in the parallel verses so I'll have to think that "jesus" meant it.

 

What this means is that people must not want to have the things they're asking for. They must not want to have money. Or be healthy. Or solve poverty. Or those other things because all it takes is honestly deep down believing that these things will happen.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

I've had Christians try and tell me that they prayed for something and got it, and that this is somehow concrete proof of the existence of God, and a good reason I should believe in him.

So then God is a vending machine after all?

 

It's so frustrating. I can say: "I prayed but didn't get an answer," and they're response is, "God isn't a vending machine, you can't just ask and get things." But then they ask, and get things, and that somehow then is okay?

 

And mwc is right, the Bible doesn't put it in the gray-zone, but is very categorical. It's either God answers all prayers, or the Bible is wrong. Not, "God answers only selected prayers." There's no "yes, no, maybe" theory in the Bible. There's no "God is no vending machine," in there hidden between the verses, it is only, "ask and you will receive."

[godlessgrrl]

And what's with the stupid shit some xians think god gives them when they pray? Like a closer parking spot or a new PS3 for Christmas or that their favorite snack food go on sale?? Like god wouldn't have anything better to do than address the trivial needs of some pampered believer with a sense of entitlement, especially not when there's people suffering and dying in real ways the world over...

 

Really, if god would prefer the shallow and pampered, he's kind of an elitist asshole.

[Dagan]

I've had Christians try and tell me that they prayed for something and got it, and that this is somehow concrete proof of the existence of God, and a good reason I should believe in him.

So then God is a vending machine after all?

 

It's so frustrating. I can say: "I prayed but didn't get an answer," and they're response is, "God isn't a vending machine, you can't just ask and get things." But then they ask, and get things, and that somehow then is okay?

 

And mwc is right, the Bible doesn't put it in the gray-zone, but is very categorical. It's either God answers all prayers, or the Bible is wrong. Not, "God answers only selected prayers." There's no "yes, no, maybe" theory in the Bible. There's no "God is no vending machine," in there hidden between the verses, it is only, "ask and you will receive."

 

That's usually justified by saying you didn't ask for what was God's will, and if you were really close to God, if you really believed enough, you would only ask for things that were God's will and therefore all your prayers would be answered because you are just that close to God's will. "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could move that mountain." Awww, you just didn't have enough faith, or didn't ask in God's will, etc etc.

 

Personally I think that's crap. I think Christians train themselves, self-censor themselves, so they only ask for things that they know will be answered. On top of that, they see answers for prayer in every strange occurrence, possible again because they are praying vague prayers that can be easily considered answered depending on the random event.

 

The hypocrisy also pisses me off. God's not a vending machine, but you can bet they'll crow about it if they pray for a parking spot near the elevator and get it.

 

Example (this is one told to me by a friend): Person has an extra Bible, asks God to show her who to give it to. Person is eating lunch in Dairy Queen, somehow notices stranger (they say "God told me to go talk to her" but I figure she just saw someone sitting alone, looking sad). They strike up a conversation, my friend gives the sad person the bible, person comes to church, wow what an amazing answer to prayer! Whoopeefuckingdoo.

 

I prayed for God to show himself to me, to help me through my crisis of faith, to send me a message through a friend, anything that I would know without a doubt it was him. I got silence. Maybe I should have prayed for a better parking spot instead.

[Vixentrox]

I prayed for God to show himself to me, to help me through my crisis of faith, to send me a message through a friend, anything that I would know without a doubt it was him. I got silence. Maybe I should have prayed for a better parking spot instead.

Yep, same for me. I begged god to help me keep my faith. Look where I am now..haha.

[Mriana]

Here's a good one by Mark Twain:

 

It is best to read the weather forecasts before we pray for rain.

 

As a told a Xian friend of mine who wanted rain, as Mark Twain stated, before you pray for rain, check the weather forecast, and then pray for it. She laughed. The irony of it is, IF it is going to rain, you really don't need the prayer after all and IF it is not going to rain, then obviously prayer will fail, even in the mist of drought. Same holds true for many other things and one of the best sayings I've ever heard was, "Nothing fails like prayer". Locking your doors and windows helps prevent an intruder, but leaving your doors and windows unlock, all the prayer in the world won't help you, if someone wants to enter your home. However, the same holds true if you lock your doors and windows helps, but IF the intruder is determined to get in, no prayer in the world will help you.

[Dagan]

I prayed for God to show himself to me, to help me through my crisis of faith, to send me a message through a friend, anything that I would know without a doubt it was him. I got silence. Maybe I should have prayed for a better parking spot instead.

Yep, same for me. I begged god to help me keep my faith. Look where I am now..haha.

Yeah, so much for "I believe, help my unbelief." I prayed that prayer too. Nothing.

 

You know what's kind of funny? My church just completed a 24-hour prayer vigil. Listening to the "words" people got from the Lord, I was struck by how directly they reflect the speakers' personalities and sounded like what they would have said even if they hadn't been praying. None of them offered anything revelatory, either. What a waste of time.

[DarthOkkata]

I've noticed that too, but never really though much on it because of my beliefs on the subject already. As a Christian, I just sort of accepted it, and never put any though into it. It did stick out after I lost my faith though.

 

People do tend to mirror their own personalities in the way they speak about prayers, or what 'God' says to them.

 

You never hear about the Lord admonishing them for doing something stupid, or being wrong about something.

 

It's always a positive, praising them, offering advice on how to handle something, or giving them some sort of 'cheat' or 'inside information' to help them out personally. As if God is some sort of 'psychic hotline' and only serves to help them out instead of being some sort of 'ruling force' that governs the Universe that creates and enforces the rules of good and evil.

 

Oddly, divine advice always seems to be the way they would have dealt with, thought about, or handled a given situation to begin with, or just telling them to 'wait around' or 'be patient' for something to happen.

 

It's always, 'wait' or 'you're awesome' or 'here's an inside track for you'.

 

They usually only mention that they were told to 'wait' after the fact as well.

 

Never anything like, 'you shouldn't have done that', or 'what are you an idiot?', or 'it will never happen, just give up and move on'.

 

God's communications are always 'supportive' somehow or another. He never seems to tell anyone to change their behavior or admonish them for something they've done wrong, or tell them to admit or own up to some sinful wrongdoing.

 

It makes one wonder why there's so much 'guilt' involved when Jesus seems to act like a 'self esteem coach' when he talks to his followers in their minds when he 'answers' prayers.

 

Of course, the moment they get caught doing something wrong, they immediately ask the Lord for forgiveness, [and sometimes, by extension those they've wronged.]

 

It's never God telling them to fess up either. They always get caught first, and then ask to be forgiven.

 

That sort of thing is always after the fact. There's never any preemptive word from God warning them against acting like selfish morons or trying to prevent mistakes.

 

It makes me think that 'prayer stories' are untrustworthy bullshit.

 

Even if there is some sort of divine warning or word to prevent misbehavior, it's always someone else that his warning is for. Never the individual who had his 'word' revealed to them. It's always a third party that needs to be corrected.

 

If they do something wrong it's never their fault. They were always 'tempted' by some outside force.

 

It's only after something goes wrong that God is punishing them for something. He never gives warning or advance notice like he does for positive things for some odd reason.

 

It's disgusting really. The selfish self centered mentality automatic 'forgiveness' creates. There's no personal accountability until 'judgment' after death.

 

I suppose it does make being an ass easier to have a magic forgiveness box.

 

I'm not so lucky, I've got to get things right the first time.

 

I think this is the mentality that makes most of the Atheist I know better and more trustworthy people than the religious folk I know. I trust an Atheist more than any Theist, and it's not because we share beliefs about the nature of God.

 

They tend to be more honest and less apt to think that if they do something wrong, they'll be forgiven. As if they deserve it or something by divine right.

 

Forgiveness should be earned, not given. It's not a gift, but a level of trust and acceptance that must be attained.

 

I hate the religious idea that forgiveness is some sort of divine 'gift' that must be readily given away at nothing more than a request.

 

If someone wants me to forgive them for wronging me, they have to earn it. They have to make me believe that they are worthy of my trust and respect again.

 

There's absolutely nothing unreasonable or wrong about that.

[NonXNonExX]

How disappointing! Not a single Xtian defender. Looks like SOMEONE wasn't praying hard enough!

[Vixentrox]

How disappointing! Not a single Xtian defender. Looks like SOMEONE wasn't praying hard enough!

They are praying for guidance on what to do.

[chefranden]

I had a friend in Bible College that prayed about everything. He even asked Jesus what color socks he should wear that day. He would pray to get through an intersection safely. Jesus came through every time I rode with him.

[Dagan]

How disappointing! Not a single Xtian defender. Looks like SOMEONE wasn't praying hard enough!

They are praying for guidance on what to do.

 

God told them to "wait"

[Thurisaz]

How disappointing! Not a single Xtian defender. Looks like SOMEONE wasn't praying hard enough!

They are praying for guidance on what to do.

 

Maybe they got that guidance, and its message was "better keep your pie holes shut!"?

[Eris]

I've had Christians try and tell me that they prayed for something and got it, and that this is somehow concrete proof of the existence of God, and a good reason I should believe in him.

So then God is a vending machine after all?

 

It's so frustrating. I can say: "I prayed but didn't get an answer," and they're response is, "God isn't a vending machine, you can't just ask and get things." But then they ask, and get things, and that somehow then is okay?

 

And mwc is right, the Bible doesn't put it in the gray-zone, but is very categorical. It's either God answers all prayers, or the Bible is wrong. Not, "God answers only selected prayers." There's no "yes, no, maybe" theory in the Bible. There's no "God is no vending machine," in there hidden between the verses, it is only, "ask and you will receive."

 

That's usually justified by saying you didn't ask for what was God's will, and if you were really close to God, if you really believed enough, you would only ask for things that were God's will and therefore all your prayers would be answered because you are just that close to God's will. "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could move that mountain." Awww, you just didn't have enough faith, or didn't ask in God's will, etc etc.

 

Personally I think that's crap. I think Christians train themselves, self-censor themselves, so they only ask for things that they know will be answered. On top of that, they see answers for prayer in every strange occurrence, possible again because they are praying vague prayers that can be easily considered answered depending on the random event.

 

The hypocrisy also pisses me off. God's not a vending machine, but you can bet they'll crow about it if they pray for a parking spot near the elevator and get it.

 

Example (this is one told to me by a friend): Person has an extra Bible, asks God to show her who to give it to. Person is eating lunch in Dairy Queen, somehow notices stranger (they say "God told me to go talk to her" but I figure she just saw someone sitting alone, looking sad). They strike up a conversation, my friend gives the sad person the bible, person comes to church, wow what an amazing answer to prayer! Whoopeefuckingdoo.

 

I prayed for God to show himself to me, to help me through my crisis of faith, to send me a message through a friend, anything that I would know without a doubt it was him. I got silence. Maybe I should have prayed for a better parking spot instead.

 

 

Quoted for fuckin' truth man. The aunt of mine who told me that God didn't want me to go to college is EXACTLY like this, thanking God for parking spaces and other shit. She won't even start the care before praying.

 

This rhetoric is full of shit and for one, I hate being dragged into it and then yelled at for not having enough faith. Ya know what? FUCK YOU and GOD because I can't take this shit anymore. That's the reason we're still in this mess because you would rather sit back and wait for Your buddy Jesus to tell when when and where to go rather than taking a good look around, REALIZING for yourself that this place is shit and packing up and leaving. If that's the way you want to think, be my guest but stop dragging me down with you because the longer I stay here, wasting away with you, the more of my life I waste. I don't care if people think I'm selfish for wanting to leave. What fuckin' right do they have to keep me here? NONE.

[DarthOkkata]

Well, the old saying is 'God helps those who help themselves'. It's fun to throw that one into the faces of people like that.

 

How do they know you're not just helping 'God' help you?

 

Though, the truth of the matter is that it's not 'God' helping, just someone taking care of things for themselves.

 

I never mind using their own philosophies against them. The Christian waiting game and divine plan toads usually shut the hell up when confronted with that particular phrase.

 

What would they know of what God wants anyway?

 

God's word, or what God 'speaks' to them always sounds suspiciously like their own personal opinion. I've told quite a few people that one as well.

 

It's usually countered with some sort of I'm 'being a blasphemer' or 'You don't believe/trust God's word?'

 

I enjoy countering with 'God's word? It's your word on the matter I don't trust. I don't believe for a moment that you're speaking for God. It's rather arrogant and suspect for you to claim that you are. Why should I believe you? Are you saying God couldn't tell me himself? Why would he need you to do that for him? If God wants me to know, he can tell me himself without going through you.'

 

After all, even if I was a Christian, how would I know if they're not just trying to get their own way or impose their personal beliefs on me by tricking me or lying? Not every Christian is a 'True Christian' tm and an honest person, and it's hard to tell which is which.

 

The best way to argue with Christians is to use their own philosophies and scripture against them. It makes counter argument difficult for them, and they usually resort to childish tactics of 'what would you know?' or 'you don't understand' or similar silliness.

 

Which is easy to counter, because the Bible says that people with psychic powers are evil, and should not be trusted. After all, if they know what I know, or what I'm feeling, or believe, then they must have psychic powers.