A Conscious Atheist

[conscienza]

I was raised in a christian family (Pentecostal/Evangelical church, the type of church that only baptizes 'adults' and focuses on the message of Jesus above all), daughter of parents who are very devoted to their faith in God. Believing in God was part of everyday life. It's funny and scary how - even though I have been living like an atheist for a long time - it still is. I am very happy to find a board online where I can read about other people's experiences, and have been a long time lurker. Maybe it's good to put this to paper.

 

I don't know exactly when me and God started to part ways. I am 30 years old now, I think my initial doubt came into existence about 20 years ago. I was in still in school, a curious and bookish girl- reading whatever was put in front of me, full of questions and skepticism. I was reading about evolution, and read Genesis at the same time. I started to wonder about how God first created a serpent and then somehow evil was also there. I concluded that God also created the Devil, but felt terrible for thinking that. Then I wondered how this all started with Adam and Eve, yet a few books later, we have different people slaughtering each other and God taking sides. Where did the people come from? Where they there when Adam and Eve got kicked out of Paradise? Why does God have a particular people, while he is also the Creator of ALL life? Including those that were 'enemies'? I hated these questions that I couldn't suppress. I didn't want to think this way. I wanted to believe, but couldn't. When asking about these issues (either in Sunday school or evangelical summer camps), I'd get answers like 'it's the Devil that is trying to keep you away from faith', or 'you just have to pray, every day, and God will come in your heart'. After a couple of attempts to find answers, I concluded that asking people in church wouldn't help, and hoped that somehow I'd 'fall in faith'.

 

When I turned 11, my mom got diagnosed with a terminal cancer, and life became a dark place in which my family didn't pray, but literally cried to God. I still can't talk about this time, it is a black hole in which my memories vanished. I tried to pray for my mom too, desperate by the idea that my father would be alone (I didn't even think how I would live without a mother), My mom got better, somehow. Her cancer that was discovered in a place where that particular kind of cancer never originates, was the only cancer ever found. By cutting the part out of her, she was cancer-free. Of course, in the belief-world of my parents, this was a miracle from God. In my head, even though I was thrilled that I still had my mom, this immediately made me wonder why the father of one of my friends had to loose a similar battle against cancer. I got answers like 'maybe it was his time to come home' or even 'maybe he wasn't a christian'.

 

Even my mom's 'miracle' healing didn't convince me about the existence of a loving God, his son Jesus and the Holy Ghost. I felt increasingly worse on the matter, and still hoped for an epiphany that would make me a happy christian, like the people in my church seemed to be. One step in this is one that in fact, I still regret. When I was about 13, one of my church and school friends, got baptized. As is common practice in my ex-church, people get baptized when they choose for the Lord themselves, i.e. as 'adults'. Most of those 'adults' hadn't passed puberty at the point where they got baptized, though. From that day on, my mom would open every Sunday lunch saying that when she was my age, she was already baptized, and didn't I also want to really 'choose for the Lord' and start my adult life 'with Him'. Part of me just got tired of that kind of subtle manipulation, part of me badly wanted to not have so many doubts, so I went on and signed up for it. I went under water and came out with the same doubts I had for the past 3 years.

 

Let me stop boring you with a year-to-year story, and fast forward to the grand moment that I was free to leave my home and go to university. I am skipping 3 years of anorexia and how I got out of that (I stopped eating and became a stick with a skinny face, but at least I felt in control and this was a perfect way of getting rid of my depressed feelings re: religion etc).

 

From a life that was pretty constrained by what a christian is supposed to (not) do, I (at 18) went to the life I sort of fantasized about as a teen. I never looked for a new church in my new city. I started going out. I started smoking and drinking occasionally (didn't want to make a habit out of either of them). I kissed a random guy at a party, and thought I'd go to hell for sure. In fact, I did end up getting mono from this guy I met my first boyfriend and he was as atheist as can be. I got into a terrible struggle, wanting to sleep with him, but finding myself telling him that I wanted to wait until marriage. I decided to sleep with him after a year- and was stupid enough to tell my parents. When we broke up, my heart completely broken, my mother blamed my pain on having slept with him prematurely. I gradually slipped into my first big depression. I think there was at least half a year that I barely got out of bed, and no one knew. I managed to get out, went abroad, and really went 'wild', dating various guys, sleeping with them if I wanted to, basically doing enjoying my young years, and doing everything God has forbidden . Returning home, another depression, I was convinced that I got several diseases (my punishment for sleeping around), and it took me another year to climb out.

 

Because of those depressions, it took me a bit longer to get my MA degree, but I always had good grades and to the outside world, I was a top-student. I was, and am still, very lucky that I can do a lot of work in a short time, because I have long periods being so depressed that my productivity is close to zero.

 

The older I got, the better I could handle my occasional slips into depression. Three years ago, I met my (atheist) fiance, and about a year later we moved in together (no marriage at that point). We recently got engaged, and we want to start a family. All seems well, but it really isn't.

 

First, I haven't told my parents that I don't believe. The moments I wanted to, my mom starts stories about 'how I can't deny the working of God in her life, when she had cancer', or even in my own life when I battled ED/depressions. It's a way of forcing a discussion that I feel so pressured into answering her what she wants to hear... she will ask 'you DO believe in God, don't you?' instead of 'how do you feel about God?'. Always a yes/no question, with a strong manipulation to what she needs to hear. There have been times that she expressed how bad it makes her feel that I am not in church, and how that makes her a bad mom. I feel like such a bad daughter, sometimes I really wish I could believe for her. Or for me, just to make my life simpler. Or I feel like it would have been best if she never had me.

 

Then, I notice a pattern in my thoughts that indicates that much of the belief-system I was raised with, is still there. The times I was convinced I had caught diseases from sex, are a good example of that. By not being in Faith, I also don't HAVE faith. I never learned how to have faith in myself: I was told to have faith in Jesus or God, and not make myself the Queen of my own life. I feel I don't deserve to be happy, and this goes as far as being anxious about diseases, not being able to conceive children, etc.

 

So my question is, when you consciously decide (or accept) that you're not a christian... how do you get rid of deeply ingrained thought-patterns that are the heritage of your upbringing in the faith? How is it possible that I have these thoughts triggering anxieties and depressions, when I never really believed?

 

For those of you who managed to get to this point, thanks for reading.

[Overcame Faith]

Hi and welcome, Conscienza. Very thought provoking extimony. I can't answer your questions adequately, but here are some of my thoughts:

 

First, I haven't told my parents that I don't believe.

 

There's no hurry in doing this. In fact, unless you have some perceived need to do so, you never have to tell them. If you decide to, then pick your own time, place, and appropriate circumstance. You may want to get these issues clearer in your own mind before telling them that you don't believe.

 

Then, I notice a pattern in my thoughts that indicates that much of the belief-system I was raised with, is still there.

 

How can it be otherwise? Whether it is religion or other things, children are always impacted by their parents' belief system. It doesn't mean that when the children grow up to be adults, they necessarily believe just like their parents, but when young minds are bombarded with a belief system, some of it will inevitably show up in the adult.

 

I feel I don't deserve to be happy

 

Of course, you do "deserve" to be happy. The thing about happiness is that it has nothing to do with whether one deserves it or somehow merits it. By the simple fact that you are a human being, happiness is your birthright. As you know from your life experiences, this birthright does not guarantee happiness, but being a birthright, you don't have to earn happiness. What you have to do is claim your birthright and pursue it vigorously. Do not give up. You can find happiness!

 

this goes as far as being anxious about diseases

 

I am not asking you to post about this private matter, but if you are anxious about having contracted some disease or the other, make sure you are checked out by a physician to either eliminate the concern or, if you did contract something, to have it treated

 

not being able to conceive children

 

I know from personal experience that this issue can be very, very difficult. If you want children but are unable to conceive, don't give up. There is a lot that can be done to help you conceive. But whatever you do, do not "blame" yourself for this. Do not think of it as anyone's "fault." Take the judgmentalism out of it and pursue it as a medical issue. And remember above everything, this is not some kind of punishment from any god. Reject that sort of thinking outright and never, never accept it from anyone who suggests such a thing. People who do this do not understand the emotional difficulties someone with fertility problems faces (or if they do understand the emotional impact of fertility issues and say something like god is punishing you, they are not worthy of your time and their words are not worthy of your consideration).

 

So my question is, when you consciously decide (or accept) that you're not a christian... how do you get rid of deeply ingrained thought-patterns that are the heritage of your upbringing in the faith?

 

There is probably no single answer to this question. As I said above, none of us can help being influenced by the belief system into which we are born. What helped me was to think things through. Ask yourself why you believe something or why you are acting in a certain way. Once you consciously reject Christianity, you can begin understanding that the reasons you have certain thought-patterns is because of the influence that Christianity had on your upbringing. When you really come to terms with this fact, then you can consciously begin changing the thought patterns into something healthier.

 

How is it possible that I have these thoughts triggering anxieties and depressions, when I never really believed?

 

Perhaps you did believe to some extent. No shame there. I definitely believed it all but came to reject it (finally). As for your anxieties and depressions, don't ignore them. You may want to seek some professional help.

 

Best of luck to you in grappling with these issues. I wish only the best for you.

[ShallowByThyGame]

These guilt patterns are a cultural teaching, not a matter of faith. First you have to be willing to leave your comfort zone, to be able to mentally know that your feelings are irrational. Next you need to begin shocking your system, in a sense, to gain perspective about life that you can use to relearn your cultural angst. Travel the world, join groups of freethinkers, and break away from your old life. Hell, even standing up to your mom might help you feel in control again. You've probably done enough for her, so drop that 'I'm not a good enough daughter' crap. Children don't inherently owe their parents anything, that is just a christian theme used for control.

 

When a smoker is trying to quit, it is advised that he or she stop going to the places where he or she smokes. I feel that applies here. You need to break your habits and stop doing what's comfortable so that your brain will be learning a new way of thinking instead of reusing old and unwanted associations.

 

...hope that helps. I used to be a straight edge xtian...no drinking/smoking...very tight ass. By going to college far away from home and the desire to please mom and dad I was able to gain perspective and realize that substances are not inherently evil, and that by using aspirin on my toothaches I was being a hypocrite, and soon my personal culture changed to a healthier more self-lenient one and I began to flourish socially. I also overcame my fear of intimacy/sex simply by not being afraid to simply try previously terrifying things like touching a girl...i was able to reach this point because I had begun to embrace a more chaotic life of trying new things, and I realized that I would be okay and life was not black and white.

 

Kind of like the movie Yes Man, I forced myself to experience things beyond my normal culture. I know we may have different thought-patterns, but I guess I'm trying to say that you need to leave the darkness behind and jump into the unknown, and if you feel guilty, acknowledge it, but try to shake it off because you know in your heart that that feeling is not your friend.

[conscienza]

Thanks for your reply, Overcame. It's very reassuring to have people being able to relate to this! And you're right, I don't HAVE to tell my parents. In fact, I'd rather not. But various (non-extians) have suggested I should.

 

Just to avoid misunderstanding, I have been tested of course for things I was scared of, and came out negative. It's the anxiety that is the problem. Same holds for trying to conceive, we've just begun a month ago , and I am scared that it won't happen *already*!. I am in perfect health and so is my partner- it's not about fertility but about anxiety. What I am describing is a pattern: every 'big' thing in my life (sex, love, children, career) comes with anxiety that I will fail or that things are bound to go wrong because I am a bad person, or that someone will leave me.

 

I will reply later in more detail, thank you very much for your thoughtful response

[MonolithTMA]

Welcome! Great post! :welcome:

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, conscienza.

 

You've been through a lot. No wonder you often feel anxious. With your life history, I think anybody would. Is it getting better, though, with time and with improved relationships?

 

Sometimes it's not easy to measure the progress we've made away from the stranglehold of christianity on our automatic responses. But for most people, most of the time, it does get better and better.

 

The next time you feel anxious you might consider just flopping down on the couch and saying, "Hello, anxiety! What do you want of me for the next ten minutes, because I'm giving you this time." Then stay there for ten, mentally observing and acknowledging without struggling to regain control. At the end of that time, say, "Thanks for the info." Then get up and go about your business. This de-fanging, de-mystifying process often works wonders.

 

Good luck, and have a good time here with us!

[LBW]

I'm glad you posted your story, conscienza. That alone can be a helpful exercise.

 

I feel like such a bad daughter, sometimes I really wish I could believe for her. Or for me, just to make my life simpler. Or I feel like it would have been best if she never had me.

I can identify with this . . . I have often said since my deconversion that I wish I could believe for my father. But the fact is, your parents' reaction to your non-faith is their responsibility, not yours. You obviously don't need to tell them until you're ready, so don't rush it - and in my case I chose to share the news in a letter rather than face-to-face. But if/when you do reveal your beliefs (which is difficult not to do when you have a very fundamentalist family like yours, and like mine), remember than any negative reactions they may have are not your fault. You didn't adopt this way of thinking to spite them, you arrived at & acknowledged the truthful conclusions despite how much, "easier" it would have been for you to pretend to believe the delusion.

 

So my question is, when you consciously decide (or accept) that you're not a christian... how do you get rid of deeply ingrained thought-patterns that are the heritage of your upbringing in the faith? How is it possible that I have these thoughts triggering anxieties and depressions, when I never really believed?

"Coming out" to my Christian friends and family was a big step in my finding peace with my new worldview. It was a painful experience, but the alternative of remaining in hiding, as if I was ashamed of my beliefs, was unacceptable for me personally. On some level, it would have made me feel perpetually that what I believed was wrong. After the initial difficulty, the act of exposing my Atheism helped free me from residual guilt and doubts.

 

But even with that, I've still got time to go before I'm totally cleansed of the hangups religion left in me. Give yourself time to heal. And seek out some counseling if you think it will be helpful in letting you achieve the happiness you DO deserve (you can actually look into online counseling if you think you'd do better with that).

[conscienza]

It has been a while since I posted this story and I am still very happy I did. I got myself a copy of Leaving the Fold, which I am reading bits by bits. Thanks all of you who found the time to reply encouraging messages. I can happily announce, somewhat off topic, but since I mentioned my anxiety Re conceiving, that I am pregnant with our first child! We are one of the lucky ones that conceive very quickly (2-3 months). Of course I am still anxious, anxiety seems a bit of the leftover I have from being raised one way and living the other. As if I will always have 'judgement day' hanging over my head

[LBW]

It has been a while since I posted this story and I am still very happy I did. I got myself a copy of Leaving the Fold, which I am reading bits by bits. Thanks all of you who found the time to reply encouraging messages. I can happily announce, somewhat off topic, but since I mentioned my anxiety Re conceiving, that I am pregnant with our first child! We are one of the lucky ones that conceive very quickly (2-3 months). Of course I am still anxious, anxiety seems a bit of the leftover I have from being raised one way and living the other. As if I will always have 'judgement day' hanging over my head

So happy for you conscienza. Babies are awesome. And just give the anxiety time to fade, I hear it nearly always does happen eventually (I'm a fairly new deconvert myself).

[pitchu]

Congratulations, conscienza. May you have an easy pregnancy, an easier birth and an easy-going baby!

[Skeptic]

I identify with a lot of this. My parents were very fundamentalist in their beliefs. Officially, my mom belonged to a Methodist church and has been going to Presbyterian churches as of late (my dad doesn't attend church), but my parents' beliefs align more with Charismatic xianity than with the fairly mainstream churches that my mom attends. They believe in "spiritual warfare", speaking in tongues, spiritual gifts, nonsense like that. I started to question when I was around four years old. I was really interested in dinosaurs and I read things in dinosaur books that didn't match up with what my parents were telling me, like how paleontologists found fossils that were around 65 million years old and how they believed that the dinosaurs died out because of a meteor colliding with the earth, not because of a world-wide flood.

 

Where did the people come from?

 

I asked my mom this exact question the first time that I read Genesis for myself. It starts out talking about Adam and Eve, and then Cain and Abel, and then, magically, Cain gets a wife. I remember going back and reading that part again and thinking, "Where the hell did she come from? Did god create more people and the writer just left that part out?" When I asked my mom about it, she gave me some BS apologetic answer that I can't remember. I do remember her telling me at one point to just skip the Old Testament altogether and start with the New Testament LOL. I know why now: she knew that if I read the OT, I would most likely become an atheist, which is, actually, exactly what happened.

 

I hated these questions that I couldn't suppress. I didn't want to think this way. I wanted to believe, but couldn't. When asking about these issues (either in Sunday school or evangelical summer camps), I'd get answers like 'it's the Devil that is trying to keep you away from faith', or 'you just have to pray, every day, and God will come in your heart'. After a couple of attempts to find answers, I concluded that asking people in church wouldn't help, and hoped that somehow I'd 'fall in faith'.

 

I also hated not being able to believe it like everyone else around me could. I tried to pray and read the bible, but the bible made no sense to me and god never answered my prayers. When I'd ask someone in the church or at camp about something in the bible, I was usually told to pray to god to give me the wisdom to discern the answer, but that was stupid because god flat-out did not answer my prayers. I thought there was something wrong with me for years because I just couldn't buy into it no matter what I did.

 

life became a dark place in which my family didn't pray, but literally cried to God. I still can't talk about this time, it is a black hole in which my memories vanished.

 

I've had times like this before, and god still didn't answer or do anything to help. I'm not going to go into it here because I'd launch into a rant, which would be rude, but I do empathize with you.

 

When I was about 13, one of my church and school friends, got baptized. As is common practice in my ex-church, people get baptized when they choose for the Lord themselves, i.e. as 'adults'. Most of those 'adults' hadn't passed puberty at the point where they got baptized, though. From that day on, my mom would open every Sunday lunch saying that when she was my age, she was already baptized, and didn't I also want to really 'choose for the Lord' and start my adult life 'with Him'. Part of me just got tired of that kind of subtle manipulation, part of me badly wanted to not have so many doubts, so I went on and signed up for it. I went under water and came out with the same doubts I had for the past 3 years.

 

I never got re-baptized (I was baptized as an infant) but I did get confirmed when I was 11 or 12. Like you, I thought it would help me stop doubting and xianity would make more sense to me. It didn't work. I also got "saved" at least four times that I can remember and that didn't help, either. I was ashamed for getting confirmed after awhile and I wanted to take my confirmation papers and set them on fire (that was before I deconverted). Now, I'm not ashamed of it, and I don't think there's any shame in you wanting to get baptized because you were led to believe that it would get rid of your doubts. In my opinion, that action shows that you did want to believe and that you were willing to do what it took to believe, even though it didn't happen for you.

 

I have long periods being so depressed that my productivity is close to zero.

 

I do, too. I'll go through periods when I'm pretty functional and then, seemingly out of nowhere, I'll become completely dysfunctional.

 

First, I haven't told my parents that I don't believe.

 

I haven't, either. My parents live about an hour and a half from where I'm currently living and if I told my parents that I'm an atheist, they would flip out. I don't want to have to deal with the inevitable backlash, especially when they live so close to me and they know where I live. I'm planning to do it eventually in a way that is mean-spirited, and to also come out of the closet as a bisexual at the same time (I had a very bad relationship with my parents) but now? There's no way that I would subject myself to the inevitable headaches and anxiety that would cause. Don't worry about not telling your parents. Sometimes, it's just not worth it.

 

The moments I wanted to, my mom starts stories about 'how I can't deny the working of God in her life, when she had cancer', or even in my own life when I battled ED/depressions. It's a way of forcing a discussion that I feel so pressured into answering her what she wants to hear... she will ask 'you DO believe in God, don't you?' instead of 'how do you feel about God?'. Always a yes/no question, with a strong manipulation to what she needs to hear. There have been times that she expressed how bad it makes her feel that I am not in church, and how that makes her a bad mom. I feel like such a bad daughter, sometimes I really wish I could believe for her. Or for me, just to make my life simpler. Or I feel like it would have been best if she never had me.

 

It seems like you already know this, but your mom is manipulating the crap out of you. My parents, especially my mom, are also very manipulative. Every time I've talked to my mom on the phone since I moved out at 18, she's asked when I'm going to repent of my life of sin. She knows that I've been questioning religion. The last time I talked to her, she asked me if I talked to god. You shouldn't have to feel guilty about your belief or non-belief in god. She's trying to make you feel guilty by saying that she's a bad mom because you don't go to church. That's your business, not hers, and if she chooses to feel like a bad mom, then that's her deal. You are not responsible for her feelings. It's not your fault that you can't believe in god. You just can't, just like I just can't.

 

So my question is, when you consciously decide (or accept) that you're not a christian... how do you get rid of deeply ingrained thought-patterns that are the heritage of your upbringing in the faith? How is it possible that I have these thoughts triggering anxieties and depressions, when I never really believed?

 

It's not surprising that you have these thought patterns even though you didn't really believe. You were told these things as an impressionable child and you didn't have the capacity to really know for yourself whether or not what you were being told was true or false. The brains of young children are wired to believe what their parents and other elders tell them. It's an evolutionary trait that is necessary for the child's ultimate survival. The people who were telling you these things were people who you would have ordinarily trusted. You had no reason to believe that they were lying, and if they did sincerely believe what they were saying, then they weren't lying. They were just mistaken. That being said, it takes time to shed the thought processes that one has grown up with. Posting here has really helped me with that, and so has reading books and watching documentaries put out by those who question xianity. Oddly enough, reading the bible has also helped with that. Because I didn't understand the bible, I allowed others to interpret it for me, but when I started to read it for myself, it helped me to judge for myself whether or not the xian god really was everything that people had been telling me he was. So my advice to you in this area is to give yourself time and be patient with yourself, and to arm yourself with knowledge both here and from outside sources. That has helped me tremendously.

 

You seem like a cool person and I hope to hear more from you. Good luck with everything.

[conscienza]

It is ages ago that I wrote on here. Ok, it's just a few years, but the issue towards my parents is more or less the same. I am just digging up this post, and will write more later on as I am at work preparing classes for tomorrow Maybe it's good that it forces me to write just a brief post saying thanks to those who read/responded to my earlier messages. It helps so much to feel less alone in this issue. My now husband does not have this kind of past, and neither do my close friends. Lucky for them.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Glad you got out of the cult, Conscienza, and glad to have you back on here! I was away from this site for even longer so never saw your OP until now. How is the family?

[conscienza]

Thanks Ficino

 

The family is great, and has been extended in June this year with a babysister. We have two girls, and they are the joy of my life. They are also the reason of my return, as I struggle with my parents and their thoughts about children's bibles, christian cd's with songs about Jesus, etc. I think I might open up a different thread on it. Btw, wow, 1500 posts And you're interested in languages. Between '09 and now I didn't just produce two kids, I also finished up my phd dissertation - in theoretical linguistics

[TrueFreedom]

Welcome back, conscienza! I've been free for a few years, and I haven't told my parents either. I'm afraid that it would be a huge burden on my dad. He knows that we stopped attending church a few years ago, but he still asks for prayer and stuff. Do your parents know that your husband is an atheist?

[silentknight]

I wish I had advice to give on how best to leave behind the guilt. I do not. All I can say is remind yourself why guilt is irrational when you feel it.

 

I count myself as fortunate, as I don't struggle with guilt. I never have, for some reason, even when I believed. My "practical" side just said "I don't believe God would punish me for being human" and I did what I wanted as long as it didn't hurt others. My loss of faith, I think, was really just me letting down the pretense of belief.

[foolish girl]

They way out of those patterns of thought for me has been, as your name implies, being consciencous. When I hear myself thinking something that is illogical, and hurtful, and not true, I stop and tell myself something different. It is self-counseling if you will. For instance, I struggle with not being a possesive jealous mega-bitch when it comes to my husband. I was taught that men were pigs for looking at other women. A completely unrealistic expectation. I work very hard on an almost daily basis to say nice things to myself about it. And to make myself STOP when I feel like worrying over who he spends his time with when he is away from home. Or, if he got out of bed while I was asleep to look at porn, or whatever....

 

Those worries used to really hurt my self-esteem, and suffocate him. Now I never mention any of it. I don't ask. I don't indicate, I just love him (well) and do my best to exude confidence.

 

I hope my daughter learns from my example and never developes the internal dialouge that was so forcefully ingrained in me. (My mom used to get SUPER pissed everytime a commercial with a sexy woman came on t.v. and dad was in the room...now HOW many commercials are like that?! All of them. That is how many. This was all tied into Christian teachings about purity. Sin, etc...*sigh*)

 

so, yeah....self-correction. Constant, self-affirming, self-correction. Talk to yourself they way you would speak to a dear friend. And then take it one day at a time.

[Akheia]

Glad to hear life's gotten so much better! Thanks for the post update. I was wondering, as I read, how the conception efforts went.

 

I spent a long time after deconverting convinced that ninjas were going to rappel off the roof and "get me" for not believing anymore. Something terrible would happen. I just knew it. Eventually I realized that was just me looking for patterns and seeing them everywhere!

 

Welcome back