Such A Wonderful Fantasy

[Franko47]

Hello, all.

 

 

As a new member I will keep this fairly short.

 

 

I am 40 now and have seen a lot. I've seen what goes on in various Christian churches, assemblies, and organizations. I still have a few Christian friends, although at times it's a little tedious. They're intrigued by some of my observations, but wary at the same time. Like, what do you do with someone who says stuff that makes sense but you don't want to believe it ? Or feel that you are not supposed to ?

 

When I was in my twenties I was quite involved with a somewhat liberal Baptist Church. It was actually quite nice. For a while.

 

To be blunt, it was the rise of neo-fundamentalism in the eighties and nineties that started to put me off. Perhaps liberal Christianity (the kind I practiced) was just getting too "decadent" and it was time to put the jack-boots into action and clean up the campground.

 

My former church was literally hijacked over a period of a few months by "drop-in" evangelists from Satan....er, I mean fundyland with their marching bibles, fundamentalist rhetoric, and bobble-head sneers whenever they made a rhetorical point and enjoyed their little "gotcha" moment.

 

To be honest, I was stunned. I had no idea that "Christians" as they called themselves, could be so vicious. Any attempt at reasonable dialogue was met with a barrage of Bible-quotes (many of them lame and irrelevant) as well as claims that "dark forces" were corrupting my thinking.....for example,,,,,"Logic" and "Philosophical examination" were tools of Lucifer. If it wasn't the smarmy smile (more like condescending) it was the determined glare; there's nothing that fundamentalists love more than a battle of "wills".

 

After that, I got out of Christianity for a while. I continued on with my merry life. I've always been a rather open-minded but skeptical kind of person, so I didn't really think about it much. You get married, start a new career, and life is good. I would still engage in religious discussions from time to time, but I felt myself slowly drifting farther and farther away from my former modes of thinking. I reached a point where I began to have trouble even relating to believers from various sects. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Fundamentalists, Pentecostalists, even Catholics were all starting to sound as if they were drinking from the same well. After a couple of attempts at becoming involved again with a couple of churches, I found that there were just too many religious people driving me crazy. If it wasn't the constant obsession with "sin", or being "born again", or "evil spirits", it was obsessing over status, money (God can make you rich, you know) and "Amway" modelled ministries that thrived on money, money, money.

 

Either there was something now wrong with me, or there was something terribly wrong with Christianity, and all of it's current sectarian modes.

 

 

Yeah, that didn't take long to decide. About my only recourse now over the past few years has been the internet; at least for thoughtfull discussion on these matters. Strangely enough, it was only recently that I thought I would actually check out some actual deconversion sites. Aside from Internet Infidels I was starting to think that maybe everyone has gone religious on me or simply don't care.

 

I've seen the damage that fantasy religion and it's guilting process can do to people. I know how difficult deconversion or breaking away from the bonds of superstition can be. Hopefully I can be helpful with people struggling through this kind of thing; I have more than a few anecdotes to tell myself about stuff I've witnessed.

 

Religious people who are content with their situation would prefer not to know the dark side. In fact, most of them would like to believe there isn't a downside; that there are no "victims" who have been left scarred, confused, and even persecuted by such extravagance. You see, for many of them, the end justifies the means. Sure, there are Christians and other religious people who can be entirely reasonable about it all, but I've noticed in recent years that those numbers are getting smaller. It seems that Christianity has started to become more emotionally fuelled; the rise of televangelism is mind-boggling; not to mention the current atmosphere in the US that is distinctly "anti-science". Superstition and anti-intellectualism has replaced what used to be that which was reasonably philsophical at times; intuition is now banned; and we can't have anyone thinking for themselves.

 

 

Sorry if that's all kind of wordy and all. But you all seem like a smart bunch here.

 

 

Later.

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Franko, and welcome.

 

I had no idea that "Christians" as they called themselves, could be so vicious.

 

It is interesting how many Christians view other Christians as not the real thing and thus reserve a special animosity towards them. The only thing they hate more than a "false" Christian is a deconvert.

 

I would still engage in religious discussions from time to time, but I felt myself slowly drifting farther and farther away from my former modes of thinking.

 

Good for you.

 

Either there was something now wrong with me, or there was something terribly wrong with Christianity, and all of it's current sectarian modes

 

There is something terribly wrong with Christianity -- it is a lie. It is rotten and wrong at its core and nothing good can come from something whose very premise is corrupt.

 

Aside from Internet Infidels I was starting to think that maybe everyone has gone religious on me or simply don't care.

 

Yes, it is very nice to find a virtual community such as this one.

 

I know how difficult deconversion or breaking away from the bonds of superstition can be. Hopefully I can be helpful with people struggling through this kind of thing; I have more than a few anecdotes to tell myself about stuff I've witnessed.

 

I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

[Franko47]

It is interesting how many Christians view other Christians as not the real thing and thus reserve a special animosity towards them. The only thing they hate more than a "false" Christian is a deconvert.

 

 

It's interesting to note these days the almost competitive streak within some "fundamentalist" domains to limit the amount of people who are truly saved.

 

It's like the less people going to heaven actually makes them happy.

 

I asked a somewhat fundamentalist pastor a while back if he believed that the Pope was "saved".

 

Wish I had the video. It was absolutely elegant in the way that he waltzed around the answer but in so many words responded with the certainty that most Catholics are screwed.

 

The nearby supporters then chanted "praise the Lord; Jesus is king".

 

I hear they had a lot of this in the 14th century as well.

 

 

A lot of Christians these days seem oblivious or even angry to the notion that for about 1200 years throughout Europe people like us would or could be quickly executed, tortured, or imprisoned for questioning the prevailing theology of the day, not to mention what would have happened if one had pronounced oneself an "atheist".

 

It's amazing the stuff that modern Christians want to ignore.

[Overcame Faith]

A lot of Christians these days seem oblivious or even angry to the notion that for about 1200 years throughout Europe people like us would or could be quickly executed, tortured, or imprisoned for questioning the prevailing theology of the day, not to mention what would have happened if one had pronounced oneself an "atheist".

 

I was just reading about one group which wants to usher in a theocracy in the United States. A Christian, fundamentalist theocracy no less. Could you imagine turning over the reigns of power to such people? I don't even want to think about it.

 

 

Phanta wrote:

In my experience, it is easy for them to say that all of the bad stuff around Christianity is fallible people making mistakes and misinterpretations and manipulations.

 

Indeed, we read this frequently on this site from of those Christians who post in response to someone who had a difficult time from Christians while they were Christian themselves. The Christian delusion can be so powerful....

[Deva]

A lot of Christians these days seem oblivious or even angry to the notion that for about 1200 years throughout Europe people like us would or could be quickly executed, tortured, or imprisoned for questioning the prevailing theology of the day, not to mention what would have happened if one had pronounced oneself an "atheist".

 

It's amazing the stuff that modern Christians want to ignore.

 

I think it is mostly that they are oblivious. The average Baptist, for example, would say Catholics are not Christian. They seem to have in mind that there was always some underground movement of "real" Christians as opposed to the established church for the first 1,500 years. They have the only true form of Christianity, everyone else is in error, even though in reality the Baptist denomination is recent. Especially the end times stuff they teach and dispensationalism. That stuff comes out of the late 19th, early 20th century. They don't even realize that the Bible is taught in such a way that verses are taken out of context and combined with verses from completely different books. They have been taught how to interpret the Bible by the Pastor and Deacons of the Church. In many churches these people only have a Bible school education. They come out of the Moody Bible Institute or Bob Jones or some place like this. They don't know real Church history either.

 

There is also an attitude in some fundamentalist churches that the man of the house is the only one qualified to interpret the Babble. He is supposed to be spiritual head. It is really sickening. Anyway, that is what I came out of.

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, Franko.

 

Yes, it does seem, more and more, that "salvation" requires abject infantilization of the followers... it's a world of adult-little kids with invisible friends.

[PaleLady]

Welcome to reality, Franko! --Glad you made it out alive. I'm 47 and have also finally shucked off all of that crap. Feels good, eh?

[Arctic]

Welcome,

 

I very much enjoyed reading this and I agree for the most part about many of your points,

I tend to feel as religion keeps losing its battles it wages against science it will get more emotional.

[Shyone]

 

I observe that groups that are largely similar (e.g. the Jews and the Christians; the getting saved Christians and the Catholics; the Jews and the Muslims; the Christians and the Muslims) are more likely to come to blows over religion that those who are wildly different, like the Hindus and the Christians. Somehow, they are more of a threat than those who are very different. I reckon the reasons for this are complex, and fascinating.

 

Phanta

Don't forget the *really* close ones: Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims, Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants. Here's an old joke from Emo Phillips:

 

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.