shy1680 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Im sitting here reading on CF.com as usual and its a debate about the prophesies being fulfilled in the O.T. about J.C. When I read the O.T. there are "prophecies" that I can say were fulfilled concerning places like Tyre and its being attacked by Babylon. But since I know someone wrote that prophecy after it happened, its not really a prophecy. But lets pretend it was. It lead me to another idea though. In a way a Jewish person can go up to a stranger and argue their point of several prophecies being fulfilled without having to depend on just the bible, they can actually show physical evidence through history. Now the same cant be said for Christianity proving their Messiah without the help of the N.T. A Christian can not take the O.T. prophesies of the bible about the promised anointed King and prove to anyone that he fulfilled them without the help of the N.T. Their proof depends only in that book. If there was no N.T. to use as their proof, they wouldnt have anything to go by since the character of Jesus left no really evidence for his existance. Things like this make me happy im not a closed minded Chrisitan anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead_hobbit Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 CF.com is a trucking company, perhaps you were referring to another site? Anywho, most of the "prophecies" Christians point are either taken out of context, mistranslated, or both. I know a bit of Hebrew, and so if anyone here has a question about any alleged "prophecy" feel free to ask me any question. Anywho, Judaism isn't without its flaws. They have their own versions of Sharia law which are just as harsh and unjust, especially to non-Jews. Im sitting here reading on CF.com as usual and its a debate about the prophesies being fulfilled in the O.T. about J.C. When I read the O.T. there are "prophecies" that I can say were fulfilled concerning places like Tyre and its being attacked by Babylon. But since I know someone wrote that prophecy after it happened, its not really a prophecy. But lets pretend it was. It lead me to another idea though. In a way a Jewish person can go up to a stranger and argue their point of several prophecies being fulfilled without having to depend on just the bible, they can actually show physical evidence through history. Now the same cant be said for Christianity proving their Messiah without the help of the N.T. A Christian can not take the O.T. prophesies of the bible about the promised anointed King and prove to anyone that he fulfilled them without the help of the N.T. Their proof depends only in that book. If there was no N.T. to use as their proof, they wouldnt have anything to go by since the character of Jesus left no really evidence for his existance. Things like this make me happy im not a closed minded Chrisitan anymore. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shy1680 Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 CF.com is a trucking company, perhaps you were referring to another site? Anywho, most of the "prophecies" Christians point are either taken out of context, mistranslated, or both. I know a bit of Hebrew, and so if anyone here has a question about any alleged "prophecy" feel free to ask me any question. Anywho, Judaism isn't without its flaws. They have their own versions of Sharia law which are just as harsh and unjust, especially to non-Jews. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was talking about christianforums.com, I meant to just leave it CF but put .com sorry. And I dont agree with Judaism either, it was their portion of the bible that finally sent me away from religion. But they can at least try to get away with saying they had prophets that told about things that actually came true by using their scriptures matched with history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Im sitting here reading on CF.com as usual and its a debate about the prophesies being fulfilled in the O.T. about J.C. When I read the O.T. there are "prophecies" that I can say were fulfilled concerning places like Tyre and its being attacked by Babylon. But since I know someone wrote that prophecy after it happened, its not really a prophecy. But lets pretend it was. It lead me to another idea though. In a way a Jewish person can go up to a stranger and argue their point of several prophecies being fulfilled without having to depend on just the bible, they can actually show physical evidence through history. Now the same cant be said for Christianity proving their Messiah without the help of the N.T. A Christian can not take the O.T. prophesies of the bible about the promised anointed King and prove to anyone that he fulfilled them without the help of the N.T. Their proof depends only in that book. If there was no N.T. to use as their proof, they wouldnt have anything to go by since the character of Jesus left no really evidence for his existance. Things like this make me happy im not a closed minded Chrisitan anymore. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Xianity invented blind faith and hope for things not seen. And what you point out is precisley the reason they perverted and hijacked the meaning of faith....as they haven't a leg to stand on. The O.T. gave examples and advice from prophets allowing people to test "prophets". I dunno, funny how I rarely run into xers who can measure up to the Jews I've met in integrity and flare for what is practical. Perhaps it is the difference in theology that they were spoon fed growing up? Yes? No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead_hobbit Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Xianity invented blind faith and hope for things not seen. Not really. It's been around for millenia before Christianity arrived. I dunno, funny how I rarely run into xers who can measure up to the Jews I've met in integrity and flare for what is practical. Probably because most Jews are Agnostic. I'll bet 10$ that you'd go crazy after 5 minutes of a religous debate with a Charedi Jew. Perhaps it is the difference in theology that they were spoon fed growing up? Yes? No? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 QUOTE(dogmatically_challenged @ Aug 14 2005, 02:46 PM)Xianity invented blind faith and hope for things not seen. dead hobbitNot really. It's been around for millenia before Christianity arrived. I am not familiar with religions outside of the terrible 3 aside from Taiosm and Buddhism. I don't recal the O.T. ever giving an example of a character going completely on blind faith. The fact that the characters had a convo with god beforehand is not the same as the N.T. telling believers to have hope in things not seen. My memory is not the best though. I dunno. QUOTE(dogmatically_challenged @ Aug 14 2005, 02:46 PM)I dunno, funny how I rarely run into xers who can measure up to the Jews I've met in integrity and flare for what is practical. dead hobbitProbably because most Jews are Agnostic. I'll bet 10$ that you'd go crazy after 5 minutes of a religous debate with a Charedi Jew. HAHAHA!!! I'll keep my money thanks. Welcome to the forums dead hobbit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead_hobbit Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I don't recal the O.T. ever giving an example of a character going completely on blind faith. In the chronologically earlier parts of the Tanakh - especially the Torah - it usually seems to justify its rules by pointing examples of things the Israeli(t)es allegedly experienced. But, as the timeline goes on, God seems to be less and less directly involved. In the latter parts, you have God telling the Israeli(t)es that times were coming where they wouldn't have a standing temple, priests, sacrificies, prophecy, or all of that stuff. If I had to pick to an instance of "Blind Faith", I think the book of Jonah would best fit. In that story (as you probably know) the prophet Jonah is told to warn a city of destruction, bla bla bla. IIRC, no "proof" (signs, miracles, etc.) is given to the citizens of that city. They get scared, repent, and God decides to be nice to them. Of course, even if the supernatural events recorded in the Tanakh had happened, most Jews would be relying on stories passed on to them through generations (none of them actually witnessesing the events). So technically, they'd still be relying on blind faith. I'll have to think about this a little more when I get off my lazy butt and work on my theory about the book of Job. FYI, Rabbi Moshe ben Chaim would agree with you about blind faith (though most Rabbis would disagree with his analysis of things...) The fact that the characters had a convo with god beforehand is not the same as the N.T. telling believers to have hope in things not seen. True, but isn't that referring to future things, since many of the Christians of that time period had allegedly known Jesus? Welcome to the forums dead hobbit! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 this thread title is misleading........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead_hobbit Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 this thread title is misleading........ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL. Yeah it is. Should I grab one of those lists and start debunking every alleged "messianic prophecy" one by one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indoctrinated Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Not really. It's been around for millenia before Christianity arrived.Probably because most Jews are Agnostic. I'll bet 10$ that you'd go crazy after 5 minutes of a religous debate with a Charedi Jew. Perhaps. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you have Jewish connections? I read recently about how some of the Lubervitchers think that their dead Rabbi is the messiah, is still alive, will come again etc! I don't have the link handy. It sounded uncannily like Christianity all over again! No wonder the more orthodox in the movement want to distance themselves. I think it probably illustrates the possible psychological mechanisms that lead to the whole messiah thing. Oh, and btw, Elvis is alive! (only joking!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indoctrinated Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 If I had to pick to an instance of "Blind Faith", I think the book of Jonah would best fit. In that story (as you probably know) the prophet Jonah is told to warn a city of destruction, bla bla bla. IIRC, no "proof" (signs, miracles, etc.) is given to the citizens of that city. They get scared, repent, and God decides to be nice to them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At the risk of getting off topic here what is your view of books like Jonah, Job, Esther, etc? I know that people take them literally, but I think most academic biblical scholars would categorise them as religious fiction. IMO Jonah is a satire! I doubt the author meant his tall tale to be taken literally. I think Job is a poetic wisdom text exploring the whole issue of innocent suffering. I doubt the author of that meant the story to be taken literally. It was a vehicle for the arguments and the poetry. That still leaves the problem of how to read all the Torah and Prophets, but I don't have a problem with most of the Writings! Ecclesiastes (Qohelet) - now there's a great piece of existentialism! And the Song of Songs, well we know what that's about! Nice to come across someone who knows a bit about the Tanakh! (btw I'm not Jewish, just studied it a bit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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