Wife Is Sending Our Kids To Church Camp This Summer

[RationalOkie]

It's summer time and my wife wants to send the kids to a week long church camp in Missouri. Her family are all fundies. I call them 'red dirt' fundies because they are all Okies (from Oklahoma). These camps are expensive and, of course, her parents are paying for it all. I was never even consulted on the matter. We've been married for 15 years and other than the religion issue have had a good go of it. However, I'm very much against the indoctrination of children at ANY age. I was raised to THINK and MAKE UP MY OWN mind about whether to believe in invisible people.

 

What should I do, wait until they come back from church camp and then de-brain wash them?

[oddbird1963]

It's summer time and my wife wants to send the kids to a week long church camp in Missouri. Her family are all fundies. I call them 'red dirt' fundies because they are all Okies (from Oklahoma). These camps are expensive and, of course, her parents are paying for it all. I was never even consulted on the matter. We've been married for 15 years and other than the religion issue have had a good go of it. However, I'm very much against the indoctrination of children at ANY age. I was raised to THINK and MAKE UP MY OWN mind about whether to believe in invisible people.

 

What should I do, wait until they come back from church camp and then de-brain wash them?

 

If you ever went to church camp, you could possibly tell stories about when you went to church camp and the high-pressure and manipulation tactics they used on you. If you make the stories about yourself, AND identify what elements of the story demonstrate manipulation and irrationality, it may help your kids see the behavior for what it is.

 

When they get back, you can do pretty much the same thing. Get them to tell you what was preached, how they did altar calls, what they said to get kids to feel guilty (or "convicted"). If you treat it like "oh! the same thing happened to me - - - I later decided that was manipulation/ harmful/ untrue." then you may be able to help de-program without yourself being guilty of heavy-handedness or indoctrination.

 

If you never personally went to a camp, you may want to get people on this site to share their stories. It might help to know what kind of denomination they are dealing with.

 

I wish you the best!

[RationalOkie]

I hate to steal a child’s innocence like that, but I don't think I have a choice....do I? I mean, I'm struggling with the idea that I'm doing what they are doing and we are both trying to sway children’s minds. I don't feel right about it for some reason. On the other hand I feel like I owe my children the truth, at least as I know it.

 

The difference is they are always SOOOO definitive about everything and you aren't allowed to question it. In comparison I want my children to THINK and understand that I don't have all of the answers either. One side offers them peace of mind and comfort knowing that invisible guy is going to take care of them. What am I offering? More questions? Do you see where I'm coming from? We are adults and you and I can reason together, but a child believes the whale story, the snake in the garden story, the David and Goliath story. These stories are ideal for little minds. It’s hard to do the same thing in reverse. Hell, it seams like yesterday that I told them there was no Santa Claus. It seems mean to tell them there is no Jesus Christ.

[Deva]

Just going from my experience, up to a teenager kids believe on some level whatever their parents believe. I think as long as you and your wife do not put up a united front on the indoctrination chances are good your children will escape the worst effects of a fundamentalist upbringing. For me, this was, and is, an internalized voice of judgment. God was said to be, over and over, a God of judgment who is aware of everything you are doing. You are an unworthy sinner, you are only worthy to face the judgment of God. To believe otherwise was unacceptable and wrong to my parents. One word of advice, do not ever say to your children (I am sure you won't, but your wife or her family to say) "don't you believe God is going to judge you?" as a form of punishment.

 

Back to the church camp issue - if you choose not to make this a big issue between you and your wife, and allow the children to go, just ask them what they did. I remember one camp I went to and there was a coercive ceremony where you were supposed to give your life to Jesus. Your life was represented by a stick, and you were supposed to toss it into a campfire. Even at that early age, I balked and threw mine on the ground instead!

[♦ nivek ♦]

RO,

 

Offer instead to send kids to some form of outdoor camp, woods, bears, campfires, canoeing and such activities..

 

"Church Camp" from my foggy recesses of memory was a lotta talkin' Jebbuz, making dumbass cross crafts, and listening to shitheads preach, all the time sun was shining, water was calling, and fun wasting away...

 

You can always say NO, offer up something you want to do on those particular dates.

 

Remember, they are your kids, not the fuckin' g-parents toys..

 

kFL

[AKR]

It's summer time and my wife wants to send the kids to a week long church camp in Missouri. Her family are all fundies. I call them 'red dirt' fundies because they are all Okies (from Oklahoma). These camps are expensive and, of course, her parents are paying for it all. I was never even consulted on the matter. We've been married for 15 years and other than the religion issue have had a good go of it. However, I'm very much against the indoctrination of children at ANY age. I was raised to THINK and MAKE UP MY OWN mind about whether to believe in invisible people.

 

What should I do, wait until they come back from church camp and then de-brain wash them?

 

 

Man up and tell her that they aren't going. I would never let my kids go to some bullshit religious thing like that and then hope I can deprogram them when they come back. You're just going to fight this all of their childhoods if you don't confront it head on. What, are you going to do the same thing every summer? What if she sends them to church every week? "Oh, I'll just let them go and try to deprogram them when they get home." Why work it like that? This is something you need to bluntly discuss with your wife.

 

 

I hate to steal a child’s innocence like that, but I don't think I have a choice....do I? I mean, I'm struggling with the idea that I'm doing what they are doing and we are both trying to sway children’s minds. I don't feel right about it for some reason. On the other hand I feel like I owe my children the truth, at least as I know it.

 

The difference is they are always SOOOO definitive about everything and you aren't allowed to question it. In comparison I want my children to THINK and understand that I don't have all of the answers either. One side offers them peace of mind and comfort knowing that invisible guy is going to take care of them. What am I offering? More questions? Do you see where I'm coming from? We are adults and you and I can reason together, but a child believes the whale story, the snake in the garden story, the David and Goliath story. These stories are ideal for little minds. It’s hard to do the same thing in reverse. Hell, it seams like yesterday that I told them there was no Santa Claus. It seems mean to tell them there is no Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

There is nothing healthy about lying to your children in order to shield them from what may seem like a harsh reality. Like you said, you want to raise them to be critical thinkers, but you can't do that if you lie to them about this shit. I think you need to browse the forums more. You will find very, very few people - if any- that are happy that their parents fed them bullshit for years.

 

You also are acting like Christianity just offers a fun, rosie, warped reality, but are you forgetting all of the fucked up things in the Bible? I mean, have you read that thing? I wasn't just taught the fun stories, but all of the stories about murdering people who didn't believe in the Christianity god; I was taught about god torturing people for eternity for the same thing. There's all sorts of screwed up stories that will fuck your children up, possibly permanently. What happens when they're older? "Surprise, I lied to you all those years. God doesn't exist. Have fun working that out." That's child abuse in my eyes, no matter how good the intentions. I was actually joking with my gf yesterday about how I'd be funny/fucked up to raise a kid as a Christian fundy, and then, when they were about 15 tell them, "haha, just kidding! It's all bullshit!" It was funny to me because it seemed like such a ridiculous, fucked up thing to do.

 

Seriously, read through a bunch of deconversion stories, and think about what you're doing to their coping and reasoning skills. You're destroying them.

[RationalOkie]

You guy's are making it sound like I'm the fundie.... I assure you that I am out in the open as a "Non-Believer". It's my wife and her family that have a silent war against me as it relates to my children's souls. Outside of Santa, I've never lied to my kids about mythical creatures and fairy tales.

[Deva]

You guy's are making it sound like I'm the fundie.... I assure you that I am out in the open as a "Non-Believer". It's my wife and her family that have a silent war against me as it relates to my children's souls. Outside of Santa, I've never lied to my kids about mythical creatures and fairy tales.

 

I clearly understood that you were not a fundie.

[RationalOkie]

Phanta- That was very well put. Thank you. I like the direction you're going there. It's almost like the Cesar Millan (Dog Whisperer) philosophy of putting out positive energy. I don't think getting angry and "MANNING UP" is an effective problem solving technique. Considering that how I react will likely be questioned by the fundies within my own family it is best to use the Velvet Hammer approach. Beat them slowly with relentless logic.

 

RationalOkie

[Neon Genesis]

I was going to suggest to send the kids to Camp Quest instead but I don't know if they have any in Oklahoma.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I'd demand equal time. If the fundy camp gets them for a week, you should be able to get a week for talking to them about the problems with religion and with christian fundamentalism. Make it fun and talk about how science shows that the earth is billions of years old instead of 6,000 (most kids love dinosaurs, etc.) Take them to a lake and teach them how to question religious authority and demand evidence while you're swimming or fishing with them.

 

If your wife doesn't agree with the anti-fundy camp idea, then the fundy camp should be cancelled too.

 

Good luck!

[RationalOkie]

I was going to suggest to send the kids to Camp Quest instead but I don't know if they have any in Oklahoma.

 

I just looked at their web site http://www.camp-quest.org/ that's really cool. No, in Oklahoma they would NEVER allow this in the bible belt. If you are not from here you have no earthly idea as to the level of ignorance this place maintains. With it's evangelic ministries and home schooling Oklahoma may be the dumbest state of the Red states and that's saying a lot.... Remember, there's Texas. (Relax Texans....you're second to last, not last). I kid...I kid....

[ShallowByThyGame]

It's important to involve the children in this discussion. If they don't' want to go you need to fight for them tooth and nail, and give them an alternative plane ticket to the hawaii if need be

 

If they do want to go you should consider alternatives either in addition to or in place of that camp. Science camp, computer camp, or even freethinking camps could be good balances.

 

I went to a Methodist christian camp for a few years but it was really more about exploring new found feelings towards girls than paying attention to the sermons...though I imagine one is Oklahoma will be more 'serious' than the one I went to.

 

Regardless if you teach your children to question all authority and that seeking knowledge is the greatest virtue, the church probably won't last long.

[RationalOkie]

'Snip'

Regardless if you teach your children to question all authority and that seeking knowledge is the greatest virtue, the church probably won't last long.

 

Agreed...It's sticky to teach an 8 year old and a 12 year old that Jesus is likely a myth and certainly didn't perform miracles. You have to walk on egg shells. However, I did ask my daughter (12 yr old) if she had thought about Noah's boat being big enough for every animal, insect, reptile etc... and all of the food and water to feed them all... was it realistic? Of course, she didn't get what I was driving at. I asked her if she had ever considered the Polar Bears and Penguins and how they could have migrated through the deserts to Noah...same thing. It's hard to reason with a kid is what I'm driving at. Hell, it's even harder to reason w/ adults come to think of it.

[Creepy Doll]

I feel for you. I deal with a fundy ex. My oldest boys don't want anything to do with me and reading your post about brought me to tears. We raised them in a fundy environment. We divorced when my youngest was just a year old and I got them for the first seven years but I was still a fundy for that entire time. I feel like I've lost them, and my oldest daughter deals with a lot of problems, most of which I think stem from her internal conflict related to wanting to be liberated but fearing hell and such. My youngest boy from that marriage has been going on mission trips every summer for the last several years. My only hope is that they will understand better when they grow up. They're not far from that now. My oldest is in the army and my youngest is in high school. I made no secret about my change in beliefs and I think that was hard enough. Coming out as transgender was really hard for them, I think. Every christian in their lives told them how hideous and wrong I was. My youngest have fared much better, they are 7, 9 and 11 and they have had no fundy influences of any memory.

 

I say all that to say... I would tell them how you feel now. Let them make a choice, but don't lie to them. You need to tell them the truth when they're young and while you still have their attention. It will come a point when they won't listen to you anymore.

 

Just my two pence, take it FWIW.

 

C

[DarthOkkata]

You make it sound like this happened behind your back.

 

My suggestion is to take them somewhere that's hard to argue against during the same time to prevent it. If only just to prevent this sort of decision making by the wife and grandparents in the future. The National Mall in Washington D.C. or some other form of National Monument. Make it clear that you're getting in the way because of the covert way the decision was made behind your back.

 

It's true that the G-rents will probably try again, but you can have time for discussion with the wife before then about it. Perhaps something along the lines of 'real summer camp' as opposed to 'bible camp' which will largely keep them indoors. They don't really do half the crap you see on the brochures. If they do any of it, it's once, for maybe an hour between lectures and Jesus crafts.

 

Not fun, I can tell you from personal experience. I avoided it when I was older, but went to J-camp a few times in my tween and pretween years. It sucked ass.

 

Sending the Children off for any length of time is something that both parents should discuss before hand. It's something that should never just be announced to the other by one of them to the other. Religious ideals shouldn't be entrusted to anyone for that length of time. It should be somewhat supervised, and taken in small doses to ensure the wrong sort of ideals aren't being hammered into place.

 

I can tell you right now, that if a spouse announced 'I'm sending the kids to Jesus camp' out of the blue, my immediate response would be. "No, you're not. Especially after not having discussed anything with me." In fact, it wouldn't even need to be 'Jesus Camp' for that knee jerk reaction. Sending the kids anywhere for that long without a discussion is a negative that will be immediately contested. Just a 'warning' is not enough. If you're entrusting the kids to anyone else's care, you've a right to be involved with the decision of who those people are and where they'll be going.

 

My suggestion, announce that they can't go, because you're taking them to the National Mall in Washington D.C. That one's hard to argue against. The museums and monuments are free. Even Mom shouldn't be able to say it's not better than a week at Jesus camp.

 

Jesus camp blows. You're protecting your kids by not sending them even if they do turn out Christians in the end. Every time I went it was like being trapped in one of those Evangelical Mega Churches for a week. It was awful, people speaking in tongues, having spasms, motivational speakers screaming at you like Hitler for Jesus, and horrible horrible music.

 

Sending any child into that kind of environment worries me. I remember very clearly bigoted workshops speaking hateful disgusting and misleading tripe against homosexuals for twelve year old children. Workshops that had to do with 'preparing for the battle' and 'being soldiers for Christ' telling us we needed to be ready to 'fight for Jesus'. Scary stupid stuff.

 

It's sending the children off to be cared for by the most hardcore of hardcore Jesusites.

 

Given I don't know what particular organization is involved, I can't say for certain how similar this will be. However, given my own personal experiences, I highly suggest doing some homework and finding out what your children are in for. Don't forget, there's probably a sugar coated topping over the truth of what you're sending them into. Do research, and if you don't like what you see, don't be afraid for a moment to put your foot down and say 'Hell no. You should have discussed this with me before deciding on this for both of us' to the wife.

 

They aren't the G-rents kids, they're yours. It's 'nice' of them to make an offer like that I suppose, but you don't have to accept.

 

You have a responsibility to check things out and find out what you're getting your kids into before sending them off to a place like that for any length of time. My experience tells me that those kind of camps are usually run by the most Hardcore Evangelical types. Scary stupid.

 

Note I said most. Some are mild, no worse than sending the kids off to Sunday School. Boring, exceedingly boring, but not really harmful in the end. Do your research before, some of them aren't bad aside from being a bit dull, but some are akin to tossing your children into a pit of lions.

[florduh]

To answer your question, just say no.

 

Preying on young, impressionable minds is the most vile thing Christians do. Planting the virus so early in a developing child can cause a lifetime of damage. Is it always that bad? No, of course not, but I wouldn't take the chance by sending my kids to a Bible camp, or for that matter a Muslim camp, or a Skinhead rally. Sure, you can present alternative views after they've been indoctrinated, but it's an uphill battle fighting organized fairy tales and superstition that are presented as the only alternative to spending an eternity in Hell.

[RationalOkie]

Thank you all that responded. Your answers were all very good and I do appreciate your opinions. We can close this discussion as I do not want to waste anyones time with more of my drivel.

 

RationalOkie

[florduh]

It's not drivel, as long as you can use more COWBELL!

 

[Franko47]

Actually, just to tack on I thought your situation to be a bit tricky, for sure.

 

 

I'm not sure just how much of the Jesus Camp stuff will really cling to your kids after they get home and the fundy buzz wears off.

 

 

You can always take them to a museum later and dazzle them with some visual scientific truth; children are very impressed by visual education.

 

 

I sense you don't want to build this up into a huge marital or family confrontation, which is likely wise.

[Vomit Comet]

If I were you I'd put my foot down, but then I ain't a family man and I don't know the circumstances.

[PaulQ]

I read this and wanted to throw in the suggestion that you may wish to get your kids some books by Dan Barker. For my own son, I bought him "Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for Young Skeptics," along with "Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide for Young Thinkers." After reading these books, any 8 or 12 year old ought to be armed with the knowledge they need to survive anything a Christian camp throws at them.

[AKR]

You guy's are making it sound like I'm the fundie.... I assure you that I am out in the open as a "Non-Believer". It's my wife and her family that have a silent war against me as it relates to my children's souls. Outside of Santa, I've never lied to my kids about mythical creatures and fairy tales.

 

 

No, we're not making it sound like you're the fundie - YOU are making it sound like you're considering lying to your children about a religion you think is false. YOU are the one not sure if you should let them go get brainwashed. YOU said "it seems mean to tell them there is no Jesus." Your words - not ours. You came here for advice because you're not sure if you should lie to them about it or allow others to, and we're giving you advice based on that exact situation - nothing more, nothing less.

[white_raven23]

Memories from religious camp

 

First summer (5 days)

 

Going on a midnight raid to TP the subcamp of some younger kids....operation choreographed by the counselors.

Waking up early to go clean up wet TP from counselor engineered raid (assholes)

Gloriously stunned to find Jr Counselor (Journeyman I think...don't ask), the guy all the girls giggled over, found odd little ME attractive

Listened to girl in the back of the bus cry and pray all the way back to town because it was so much harder to be christian at home

 

Second...and LAST summer (10 days)

 

I was 16...same age as many Jr Counselors, but attended as a camper. This caused an unexpected problem. A guy I knew from school was there as a Jr Counselor, and we were friends. The counselors AND the camp directors took ISSUE with our hanging out together. We were harassed, and even told to stay away from each other. I had words with the head director. His position was that as a tender vulnerable young woman, I was under evil sway by this young man's position of authority. I pointed out the guy couldn't "sway" me very far, as we were never at any point alone together. We were watched "religiously" after that. Yay for public discrimination/humiliation.

 

The Jr Counselor from the prior year? The one who had found me attractive? He was now totally in love with the blushing BRIDE of an associate director! For my 10 days, he was actually snide and snotty towards me. Like his frustration was MY fault. I understand NOW...but at the time....my heart was mortified...which embarassed me even more to find that he'd touched me deeply enough TO mortify me that much. So then I was mortified to be mortified.

 

A Jr Counselor stationed with another subcamp gave me his contact info out of the blue when I got on the bus to go home. I'd seen him when we went to the camp gift store and watched the camp parade...and another girl I hung with told me she thought he liked me....I didn't believe her (I've been known to be dense at times). After camp was over, we went to a movie together...chemistry wasn't quite right...but we stayed friends. But his giving me his number was the brightest spot the whole 10 days. The rest of the time, I felt like I'd been pinned with a scarlet letter. Horrible.

 

 

http://www.victorymin.org/WPProgram/vbc.html

 

It looks like the ranch camp program still exists (that was the one I attended)....but the TeePee Camp (grade school) looks like it's gone now (that was the camp we TP'ed).

[RubyHypatia]

It must be so frustrating having your in-laws butting in and fascillitating the indoctrination of your children. I remember loving Bible camp because I felt more support coming from those people than I did my own family. Hopefully you always do fun stuff with your kids so they see you as supportive and a source of joy. Fundies try to get kids to give up many things they enjoy because they are "worldly." Movies and rock music come to mind. I hope you can allieviate any guilt trip that results from this camp. You're in competition with this camp, and we're rooting for you. Let us know how it works out.