Skeptic Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 My grandma's pretty messed up mentally right now. She's 80 years old and she has a lot of anxiety, she's depressed, she has some degree of cognitive degeneration, etc. Pretty much a product of aging and having people die all around you. Well, she's seeing this psychiatrist who I'm convinced is a total fucking idiot. She put my grandma on Zyprexa, which is an anti-psychotic. She's not fucking psychotic. She doesn't have schizophrenia, but she did have Paxil-induced mania at one point, which could be misdiagnosed as bipolar disorder, which this medication deals with, but the psychiatrist knew that the mania was a product of the Paxil and not because she's bipolar, so I don't get that at all. Add to that the fact that my grandma has a history of stroke, she's complained of a swollen mouth and tongue (this is a serious side-effect and she should be taken off of the medication), she's on anti-anxiety medication that was prescribed by the same asshole (they shouldn't be taken with each other), there's added risk of mortality if used in elderly patients, she's experiencing increased thirst and frequent urination (another serious side-effect which warrants being taken off of the medication), and she's on blood pressure medication, which shouldn't be taken if you're on Zyprexa. For some reason, though, this asswipe psychiatrist ignores all of this shit and convinces my two aunts and my mom that this is the only medication that my grandma can be on. It doesn't even make sense for her to be on the medication in the first place! I keep coming up with reasons why she shouldn't be on the meds and that it would actually be harmful for her to be on this medication and here's this fucking doctor giving her this medicine that she shouldn't even be on. What the fuck? I'm not even a doctor. I'm just interested in this stuff. I've done a lot of research in the fields of psychology, neuroscience, and pharmacology, but I don't have a degree. I haven't even been to college for this stuff yet, even though it's the field that I want to go into at some point, and I know more than this brain dead chick does. Jeez. I have a feeling that she put her on the meds because she has to meet some quota or something, because it seriously makes absolutely no sense to me why she's on this medicine. She stopped taking it, actually, because it makes her feel like shit, and I can see why when I read the side-effects. Damn it all, I want to confront this "doctor" and ask her why she's such a fucking idiot and why a 20 year old with no formal medical training can figure this out and she can't. I looked her up online and she has like 23 years of experience in psychiatry. There's no fucking excuse for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Sounds more like the psychologist than a psychiatrist (in training at least). As far as I am aware of, medical professionals do not have a quota; in essence, a quota would violate the Hippocratic Oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 While the AMA and APA don't have quotas, the pharmaceutical industry does. They certainly won't admit to it, but for a long time, a sordid and scandalous practice has been at work between the pharmaceutical companies and the doctors they market to. For a long time, pharma companies would offer all sorts of "percs" to doctors who met these quotas, such as expense-paid vacations and so on. That went on for years. Lately (last ten or fifteen years, or so), there has been a strong backlash from individual practitioners, doctor groups, patients' rights groups and the AMA and APA to get Congress to address this with law, so it's getting better. Of course, big pharma has fought it tooth and nail every step of the way, all the while claiming that the only thing they want to do is help people. Right. While doctors do take a Hippocratic Oath, pharmaceutical companies certainly do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Why not bring up your concerns to the doctor yourself? Let her know you are aware of what is going on and will talk to a lawyer if you need to. If the doc knows there is an intelligent, informed person on the other side, she might think twice before mindlessly prescribing drugs for your grandma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 2, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted June 2, 2009 Why not just get a second opinion from another doctor? If you don't want to do that, voice your concerns (especially about the physical side effects) in a registered letter to the head of the practice, the doctor, and the local governing board. Make sure all parties appear on each copy. Your letter will be seen as possible groundwork for a lawsuit and they should now pay attention. Give it two weeks for a response, then the next letter citing the original problem and subsequent inaction should include the state attorney general in the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 While the AMA and APA don't have quotas, the pharmaceutical industry does. They certainly won't admit to it, but for a long time, a sordid and scandalous practice has been at work between the pharmaceutical companies and the doctors they market to. For a long time, pharma companies would offer all sorts of "percs" to doctors who met these quotas, such as expense-paid vacations and so on. That went on for years. Lately (last ten or fifteen years, or so), there has been a strong backlash from individual practitioners, doctor groups, patients' rights groups and the AMA and APA to get Congress to address this with law, so it's getting better. Of course, big pharma has fought it tooth and nail every step of the way, all the while claiming that the only thing they want to do is help people. Right. While doctors do take a Hippocratic Oath, pharmaceutical companies certainly do not. This is what I was referring to when I talked about filling some quota. I had read about this a few times in different places, and it's the only plausible reason, in my mind, why the psychiatrist would prescribe anti-psychotics to someone who is obviously not psychotic. She wasn't misdiagnosed, either, as far as I can tell; her official diagnosis is some type of anxiety disorder, not schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, so this psychiatrist isn't using the drug according to the standards set by the FDA, as far as I can see. It's a fairly new medication, too, so I also took that into account. To address the other posts, my aunt and I are looking for a geriatric psychiatrist for my grandma (she's seeing a regular psychiatrist at this point) and my aunt said she'd be willing to schedule a meeting between herself, the psychiatrist, and me so that I could ask questions about this, because I'm very concerned. I just can't believe that no one caught this. She's had many doctors look at the list of medications that she's on and no one's said a word about it. She was even in the ER recently because her tongue and mouth swelled, which is a serious symptom of the medication, and she even said that she thought it was caused by the medication, but no one looked into it. They figured it was something she ate. I guess it's just typical clueless doctor behavior, which I've had to put up with myself, but I just want to go down there and shake those people and be like, "What the fuck were you thinking?!" Her mouth is still fucking swollen, but she's not taking the medication, so I figure that if she continues to be off the medication and it filters out of her bloodstream, if the swelling goes down, then that'll be confirmed, at least. That's just another bit of ammo that I can throw in this psychiatrist bitch's face when I finally confront her. I just can't stand the stupidity of it all, and how I seem to be the only one who can see this right off the bat. Everyone else in my family was just nodding and agreeing to what the psychiatrist was saying like fucking mindless zombies. I don't trust doctors that much. I'll do as much research as I can and I'll challenge them. Apparently, no one else does this, at least, no one that I know. While I do respect doctors and I do realize that they've had a lot of training in their respective fields, if a doctor is being a dumbass, and I've had dumbass doctors both for myself and for my son that I've had to deal with, then I won't hesitate for a second to challenge them. I've had a doctor at my son's pediatrician's office tell me that I know more than most of their resident doctors do, and I've never had medical training. I don't know if that says more about how intelligent I am or about how stupid their doctors are. I was planning to be a doctor at some point, and I'm planning to go into neuroscience. Hell, maybe I'll go into neuropsychopharmacology. I mean, that's pretty much what I'm doing here: trying to figure out what symptoms my grandma is complaining of are just her or part of the medications she's on, which medications are causing which symptoms, which ones she should and shouldn't be taking, how the medications interact with each other, etc. This probably sounds like it's a huge pain in the ass, but it's really fascinating. It's a puzzle for me, and I already figured out part of it just by looking up Zyprexa in Google. I just can't believe that I was the only one to catch that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I get ear infections every year and I have to hear to work, so I take some cortical steroids to reduce the swelling enough so my ear can drain, I can hear, and then I can work. One time a new doctor argued with me for like 15 minutes trying to tell me that the steroids will not help my ear infection. I knew that. I had to ask him what the steroids do. "Reduce swelling", he said. I then asked why my ear will not drain the fluid inside, and he said because my eustation tube is too swollen to allow proper drainage. "So what do you think will happen if I take a medication that is designed to reduce swelling, do you think it will help my ear drain?" I literally had to walk him through each step in order for him to see why I wanted the steroids. Since it didn't fit into his predetermined list of what to do with an ear infection, he didn't want to listen to it. I also had to throw out the name of my ENT (quite an accomplished dr) to get him to understand I'm only seeing him because I couldn't wait 3 weeks to see my ENT. I think some doctors think they know everything, or at least their patients have no clue about how they "really" feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 I just read something about Zyprexa that freaks me out, and it explains quite a lot about why this psychiatrist prescribed my grandma this particular medication. Here's the link: https://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update1104d.shtml. It's a small article, so I'll quote it here for simplicity's sake. " Earlier this year, drug maker Eli Lilly and Co. issued a nationwide warning regarding the increased risk of stroke and death in elderly patients taking the company's number one drug, Zyprexa. Zyprexa is commonly used to treat patients with schizophrenia and some bipolar disorders. The drug does not have approval from the Food and Drug Administration for uses beyond these conditions. But doctors may also routinely prescribe Zyprexa to treat the symptoms of anxiety, delusions, and aggression in elderly patients with dementia. Even though the manufacturer cannot market the drug for such use, doctors have the legal power to use their own discretion in advising patients. This "off-label" use of Zyprexa accounts for roughly 2% of sales. Eli Lilly was considering seeking FDA approval for the use of Zyprexa for dementia in elderly patients. In preparation, the company conducted clinical trials to establish the safety and effectiveness of the drug. A review of the data from these trials exposed the increased risk of death and stroke. In the studies, 3.5% of elderly patients taking Zyprexa for dementia died of all causes, compared to 1.5% of patients taking a placebo. Patients taking the drug were also significantly more likely to suffer a stroke than patients taking a placebo. According to Eli Lilly, the effectiveness of Zyprexa for treating dementia in the elderly has not been established. Despite this news, some doctors continue to defend the use of Zyprexa for elderly patients. They believe the benefits the drug may bring in helping patients with dementia live at home longer and lead somewhat more normal lives outweighs the risks. Physicians and caregivers for elderly patients with dementia need to have a conversation about their goals and what treatment option may best suit the patient's situation. November 2004 Update" That wasn't from some random blog, either. That was on the Harvard Medical School's website. I strongly suspect that my grandma has a dementia-related disorder. She sure as hell doesn't have either schizophrenia or BPD, and the psychiatrist acknowledged that the manic episode that she had was caused by Paxil, not because of some underlying mental condition. I told my mom about this and about my concerns and she got pissed, too, and she'll probably tell my other aunt (I told my mom's younger sister about this yesterday and my mom found out about what I discovered from her) and the aunt who doesn't know yet is planning to meet with the psychiatrist to discuss this. I'll be attending the meeting to confront the psychiatrist about it, because I'm the one who has done the most research on this. They're also looking into getting her set up with a geriatric psychiatrist and I dug around yesterday trying to find some, and I found one that's down the street from where my grandma is living currently. This whole situation is a huge mess, but I'm glad that I got involved and that I sorted this out. I hope I can convince this whack job psychiatrist to get her off of the medication. From what I've heard of her from my mom, she's a total bitch and she's hard to convince. I can be pretty convincing, though, and I have tons of evidence to shove in her face as to why this medication would be harmful and not helpful, so maybe I have enough cards stacked in my favor. I'm not entirely sure at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I totally sympathize with you. Do whatever you have to do before they kill your grandma (which is basically what happened to mine). Long story short (as possible). My grandpa died. My grandma got a little sad. But she got better. She got some eye surgery and was getting things in her life all set to keep on living. Then she got "sick." Uh oh. She was fucked. Before you know it my sharp as a fucking tack grandma suddenly has "dementia." This is code for "We're going to kill your loved one by doping them up on a bunch of shit and hopefully you won't catch on." So that's what they did. They stuffed her into the hospital. Fine. She was sick after all. Then they doped her up. Now she "saw shit." Well, no kidding. You're doping her up morons. Stop that and she'll be fine. Nope. The fight begins. But in the meantime we have to move her to a "home." Not her home where she wants to be but a rest home where they can "take care of her." She's "demented" after all. Fuckers. This never entered our minds as true mind you but we're trying to get her healed up so we can get her off the meds. She gets a lot worse. This is going poorly. My sister, as I just recently discovered, gets my brother and basically kidnaps my grandma from the "home." She's willing to go to jail since she's "in the know" on what was going on. They take her to her (my grandma's) house where they had some hospice care setup. No one says "boo." (Here in CA only the patient or someone with the proper legal docs can do anything or know anything about the patient) Anyhow, they take grandma off the meds. Sharp as a tack. But it's too late. She has some fucked up infection that just won't go away and it's all spread inside her. She was given a death sentence because "they" decided she had dementia. Grandma opted to get doped back up on morphine and go out that way (it's the "humane" way we do humans don't you know). Even on the max dosage she was sharp as a tack right until the moment she died. Almost one year to the day after my grandpa. Some people do that and she wasn't going to be one of them until she managed to get sick and go to the hospital where she "caught" a case of "dementia" from the fucking meds. Do not be fooled. If you're granny has dementia then get it treated (because it does happen) but every fucking old person I've ever come across in the past 5-10 years has had dementia. I'm not kidding. Someone has decided to stick this label on anyone over 65 and who is "sad" or a little "sickly" and they dope them up and kill them off. It pisses me off. It's just plain wrong. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Do not be fooled. If you're granny has dementia then get it treated (because it does happen) but every fucking old person I've ever come across in the past 5-10 years has had dementia. I'm not kidding. Someone has decided to stick this label on anyone over 65 and who is "sad" or a little "sickly" and they dope them up and kill them off. It pisses me off. It's just plain wrong. I completely agree. Generally speaking all people over 55 are doped to the max (sometimes at 50). Once the medical system (actually the pharmaceutical companies) get ahold of you its all over. Don't get started down that road. I have heard and seen way too much with 17 years in the estate planning/probate area. You see folks that are mentally perfectly sound and five years later they can't remember who you are and can't walk or drive. Some of it might honestly be dementia but I am willing to bet they are on a slew of drugs. Every one of them has side effects, don't kid yourself. No one knows how any drug in particular is going to react with any particular individual. Unless these old people have an advocate that is right there to see what is going on and intervene and say enough!, they are going to get worse and eventually die. My mother is 75 and on so many medications she has this huge pill box with each day of the week a section so she can sort them all out. Some of it is legit for her thyroid problem, but I am surprised she still has any marbles at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 I figured I'd update this. My grandma isn't seeing this whackjob anymore. She's seeing a psychiatrist that I found who lives near her. She's off the anti-psychotic medication and she's taking anti-depression and anti-anxiety medication instead. She's doing a LOT better. I am so glad that I spoke up about it because she was seriously fucked up on that medication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 I figured I'd update this. My grandma isn't seeing this whackjob anymore. She's seeing a psychiatrist that I found who lives near her. She's off the anti-psychotic medication and she's taking anti-depression and anti-anxiety medication instead. She's doing a LOT better. I am so glad that I spoke up about it because she was seriously fucked up on that medication. Good for you (and her). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 Thanks for the update and thanks for being the kind of person who does what you did! Loren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird28 Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 Well, antipsychotics can cause diabetes too. My grandma takes an antipsychotic called geodon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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