Untroubled By Wrath, Hell, And Evil...

[Llwellyn]

I just realized that most Christians simply don't have a problem with the idea of hell. You can explain to them why you are troubled by it, but to them it's a non-issue. They just shrug their shoulders. It's natural for them to accept the idea of a divine curse, and divine vengeance. They accept the wisdom of wrath and the virtue of condemnation. When they imagine a perfect world, they are not bothered by the presence of evil, degradation, and suffering. Their perfect world includes all of those things. Inequality, grief, and misery are all part of their ideal.

So, you really can't "deconvert" them by pointing out these aspects of the Christian system, as if they've have never seriously thought about it. They already see it and accept it. I used to think that others would go through the same revulsion that I would if I just made them focus their minds for a minute on the doctrine of hell. But what I've discovered is that it is not enough for them to think about the idea -- they've thought about the idea and it doesn't trouble them. They don't care.

My problem is that my ideal world looks a lot different from their ideal world. I accept that there will always be disorder, suffering, and misery, but I will never be perfectly happy while there are others who are unhappy. And I can imagine no heaven which would not be a hell to me if it were accompanied with the knowledge that there was a poor suffering wretch in an agony without end or hope. But they can be satisfied with such a heaven.

 

I'm not saying that my ideals are "better" than theirs, I'm just coming to the realization that our ideals are "different," whereas I use to think that we would all intuitively picture the same ideal world in our minds.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

When I was a believer, I liked to point out to other believers how little they actually believed. I wasn't really trying to be a prick or anything, but was trying to show the church how little commitment and faith they had, and that they much preferred the world to the real God (with the goal of getting them to commit more deeply). You are right; most believers don't really contemplate what hell means, or what heaven would be like. They are used to having a vote on everything and the kingdom of God is an absolute dictatorship. Sure we were the "kids of the king" but scripture is replete with how he treats his followers. They'd want their iPods and rock music, their lusts and their wealth, blah blah blah. Anyway, even as a believer I saw how little the church really wanted what was in scripture and instead preferred a pop faith that morphed into whatever they wanted it to be. My best sermons were on the "terrible reality of hell". Oy!

 

Sure there would be tearful confessions and public repentance, and then next week they were off sleeping around again. No change, and they didn't really want to change. It was all an emotional release.

 

Bridging the gap between the truly joyful and friendly church experience that many have and the genuinely evil behavior of the God of the scriptures is difficult. There was a good blurb on the main blog today about "snapping" and how many in cults don't even want to see the evidence against their faith. They are far too satisfied, even while being abused (though they would never call it abuse). But just like we used to say in church, we put the evidence out there and those who are ready will receive it.

[nightflight]

I'm convinced that Evangelical Christians either don't really believe in hell or they are really sociopaths.

[Guest trekker]

I think the OP is right, most Christians really aren't troubled by hell. One of the main reasons I am no longer a Christian is because I took the doctrine seriously.

 

In fact, I dare say that most Christians don't really believe in hell, they just give it lip-service because it is a standing doctrine of the church that, like most doctrines (such as the Trinity), makes no sense and, therefore, is just accepted by faith.

 

For Christians, as long as hell is reserved for those whom are evil, or for those whom they don't know, then...eah, who cares, right?

 

But when it is dear sweet aunt Betsy who dies, who never hurt a flea, but never accepted Jesus, then the subject of hell becomes an irritant. So they either pretend aunt Betsy was secretly a Christian or the doctrine of hell becomes oppressive to them.

 

After all, as many evangelicals say, if you REALLY believed that your neighbor's house was on fire, would you not go warn them? Would you not, after calling 911, try to get them out? But few evangelicals go door to door anymore, asking people, "If you died tonight, do you know where you would go?" In fact, this evangelism technique is rather passe and seen as quite out of vogue. But when it was practiced, people seem to really believe in hell.

 

So I, too, doubt that Christians really believe in hell anymore. They don't believe their own bibles. If they did, they would either be like Jonathon Edwards or, perhaps like many of us, no longer be Christians.

 

trekker

[Deva]

When I was a believer, I liked to point out to other believers how little they actually believed. I wasn't really trying to be a prick or anything, but was trying to show the church how little commitment and faith they had, and that they much preferred the world to the real God (with the goal of getting them to commit more deeply).

 

That used to bother me too. I thought most Christians didn't take their faith seriously. It was as if they were play acting.

There was no serious commitment. I felt this mostly in the liberal church. But Christians in general were no different in their behavior than anyone else, just more stiff and uptight. The Baptists would be upset by trivial things, like cussing on the TV or overly concerned with dressing modestly but the cruel way they treated other people was never seen by them.

 

I think the primary motivator for remaining in this Christian cult, for those who do take it seriously, is fear. Everything in life must have an explanation, everything must be contained in their own little world of Christian doctrine. There are many still in it, of course, for social reasons only.

 

Most Christians certainly either don't believe in hell, or they always think someone will convert in the last minutes of their life so everything will be fine. The liberals do the former and the fundamentalists the latter. In any event, they don't see how horrible this doctrine is because they don't think about it. If they did, they would either deconvert or be psychotic.

[Mriana]

My problem is that my ideal world looks a lot different from their ideal world. I accept that there will always be disorder, suffering, and misery, but I will never be perfectly happy while there are others who are unhappy. And I can imagine no heaven which would not be a hell to me if it were accompanied with the knowledge that there was a poor suffering wretch in an agony without end or hope. But they can be satisfied with such a heaven.

 

I'm not saying that my ideals are "better" than theirs, I'm just coming to the realization that our ideals are "different," whereas I use to think that we would all intuitively picture the same ideal world in our minds.

 

How do you know they aren't suffering? I mean the Xians you talk to about hell and don't care? They could very well be suffering. I've seen that a lot. They long to "go home" and will even neglect their health or just not care that their inner stress on "going home" is making them physically sick. It is a terrible thing to see as they get deeper and deeper into their delusion, which seems to trigger a mental disorder, such as depression, and it becomes a vicious cycle with their health, depression, and obsession with death. It is truly an obsession with death, even though they may speak of "going home", heaven, hell, or what have you. It is my guess, even though it does not show via their health (yet), that they are having some mental turmoil, therefore are suffering.

 

Of course, the problem comes into play when their religious beliefs are their raison d'être. Not much you can do to help, esp if they are in their 60s or better.

[Dagan]

I think the OP is right, most Christians really aren't troubled by hell. One of the main reasons I am no longer a Christian is because I took the doctrine seriously.

...

So I, too, doubt that Christians really believe in hell anymore. They don't believe their own bibles. If they did, they would either be like Jonathon Edwards or, perhaps like many of us, no longer be Christians.

 

Good point, the hell doctrine really bothered me too because I also took it seriously. And once I learned about how it evolved from the notion of Sheol into eternal torment, I really started to doubt. And Jesus' parable in Luke 19:27 really bothered me. The main character is obviously him:

 

While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

 

14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

 

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

 

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

 

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

 

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

 

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

 

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

 

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

 

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

 

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

 

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

What a dick.

[Vigile]

Most people don't seem to have the capacity to be deep, whatever being deep means. It probably has something to do with emotional IQ.

[Vigile]

But when it is dear sweet aunt Betsy who dies, who never hurt a flea, but never accepted Jesus, then the subject of hell becomes an irritant. So they either pretend aunt Betsy was secretly a Christian or the doctrine of hell becomes oppressive to them.

 

That's my family. When my atheist grandfather died a couple of years ago they would go on about how he seemed to grow more spiritual more contemplative in his last few months. He was 93 and his last few months he was starting to lose his grip on reality. I've had long, in depth conversations with him and there is no way in hell (ha! pun!) he would ever consider a death bed conversion.

 

One of my favorite stories he told me was about how one time he got roped into attending church when visiting my other grandparents. He was sitting in the back and he elbowed the lady standing next to him and whispered "If I had a bb gun I think I could hit that damn pastor between the eyes." He said he got a cold stare as she inched away.

 

Hopefully I make it to an age where I can get away with that kind of stuff.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Liberal churches like the one I was raised in ignore Hell because they know it tends to push people one way or the other.

 

When I was a christian I knew I was going to heaven because I genuinely wanted the world to be a better place and I assumed God, who loves me, would know that and forgive any minor technicalities. My methodist church was about feelgood story telling to keep us happy. In some ways I am proud that I was able to seek truth despite they 'everything will be ok' Christianity that I learned. When we did discuss the afterlife, it was all about getting into heaven. The alternative didn't seem important, and even as a Christian I didn't believe God could be capable of torturing others. Of course, I hadn't read the whole bible, which is how they get away with the fuzzy Christianity as true. Anything bad is just a metaphor they say, and of course you want to believe so you do.

[Dagan]

Anything bad is just a metaphor they say, and of course you want to believe so you do.

 

Yeah, that's scary isn't it. What's a metaphor and what isn't? The vicar/pastor/preacher/reverend/priest/nun will explain it for you!

[Llwellyn]

Evangelical Christians either don't really believe in hell or they are really sociopaths.

I actually think that a lot of Christians do believe in hell, they've thought about it, accept it, and are ok with it. They just don't give a shit. They don't regard this doctrine as a reason to deconvert, because it is satisfactory to them. It is not an objectionable doctrine.

 

And I don't necessarily think that they are sociopaths. A lot of hell-believers are productive citizens, honorable members of the community, responsible parents, and loyal spouses. They just also have room in their heart for the doctrine of never-ending divine curses.