Eponymic Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 That's what I hate-- those vultures swoop in when we are or they think we are stressed or vulnerable. When I was in college, I constantly thrashed this fundy. He often said "I'll get back to you," which he never did. I hadn't heard from him for about a month, when he called during finals week. Tired and stressed, it was still easy to thrash his b.s. Oh man. I just noticed you are lucky member number 666. How cool is that! And yes, if you've got the wearwithall, it's still easy to thrash the b.s. Kudos to that, eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffXL Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Oh man. I just noticed you are lucky member number 666. It is very cool! Still, no Christians have responded to my few posts... Will they ever speak to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Oh, shit, I am going to hell. I said 7th, of 8, I meant 6th of seven. Y'know, it's a damn shame that I still have to think about it when people ask me how many siblings I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearview Posted August 26, 2005 Share Posted August 26, 2005 I think that a deathbed conversion is proof in a Christian's eyes that unbelievers do "know" God exists but have refused to recognize him. Facing their final moments, the deathbed convert loses his bravado and gives in to what he truly believed all along. It is difficult, if not impossible, for a Christian to grasp that unbelievers truly do not believe, and stories of deatbed conversions shore up this misconception. In addition, the convert is dead so the experience cannot be refuted or explained by anyone other than the gleeful Christian(s) who took part in the act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I think that a deathbed conversion is proof in a Christian's eyes that unbelievers do "know" God exists but have refused to recognize him. Facing their final moments, the deathbed convert loses his bravado and gives in to what he truly believed all along. It is difficult, if not impossible, for a Christian to grasp that unbelievers truly do not believe, and stories of deatbed conversions shore up this misconception. In addition, the convert is dead so the experience cannot be refuted or explained by anyone other than the gleeful Christian(s) who took part in the act. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are so right. At my dads funeral, the pastor was giving a sermon about how he wasn't sad in the least for his passing, because he knew he'd given his life to christ at the last minute, and knows he'll be in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 I think that a deathbed conversion is proof in a Christian's eyes that unbelievers do "know" God exists but have refused to recognize him. Facing their final moments, the deathbed convert loses his bravado and gives in to what he truly believed all along. I agree. I also think some of the deathbed converters sincerely believe they are rescuing the dying person from perdition. My will stipulates that the obituary submitted following my departure will include, in addition to the usual information, the fact that I was a lifelong atheist dedicated to combating the negative effects of superstition on the individual and society. Also, I want it to say I "shucked off my mortal coil" instead of the usual "passed away" crap. I would opt for "kicked the bucket" or "bought the farm", but the papers probably wouldn't print it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Ok, I started thinking about my own death, and how I would react under the situation. If I saw the desparation in the eyes of my family, I think I might fake reconversion for their sakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Ok, I started thinking about my own death, and how I would react under the situation. If I saw the desparation in the eyes of my family, I think I might fake reconversion for their sakes. Ooo, I sorry, but I must STRONGLY disagree with THAT move! Why in the world would you, with your LAST UNCORRECTABLE BREATH, deceive your FAMILY into believing a LIE?!? From THAT moment on, YOU will have given them INCONTROVERTABLE PROOF that the Gospel is TRUE! They will be using this at "testimony time" forever and ever, to convince the gullible to believe. YOU will have given them unshakable, unassailable FAITH in Jesus Christ! "Daddy's in heaven now!" Do you REALLY want your children walking around with THAT nonsense cemented in their skulls? Such an act does not sound very kind to me. I'm sorry, but I can think of no more cruel thing to do to my family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Ooo, I sorry, but I must STRONGLY disagree with THAT move! Why in the world would you, with your LAST UNCORRECTABLE BREATH, deceive your FAMILY into believing a LIE?!? I'm sorry, but I can think of no more cruel thing to do to my family. I'm not on a crusade. If it helped them deal with the situation, I don't think I would care about the long term consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I'm not on a crusade. If it helped them deal with the situation, I don't think I would care about the long term consequences. I'm not talking about any "crusades", Spam. I'm talking about "honesty" and "hypocrisy". If making your family "happy" is the end all and be all of your existence, then why not live the lie RIGHT NOW? Why wait until your death to pretend to believe? If not being a Christian TODAY is also causing your family grief, and you want to comfort their hurt feelings, then why not return to church TODAY? Why wait? Don't you see that your current unbelief makes them believe that if you died SUDDENLY, no death bed opportunity, they are convinced you are going to hell? To be fair, if you want to relieve them of this fear, then you should re-convert TODAY. Again, YOU said you aren't on a crusade. Fine. I can respect that. But...what are you doing NOW, if not crusading for your unbelief? Aren't you currently in the midst of a family squabble about your UN-belief? Why is it OK to NOW cause them grief, but later on your death bed, you're going to give in and pretend that they "win"? I'm sorry, but it doesn't make much sense to me. Why not give in to them TODAY, if making them "happy" is all that matters? I don't mean to bust your chops, as this is a very private and difficult situation. You're going to do as YOU see fit, and I will ALWAYS respect that. I just wanted to give you my take on how I view this matter. Be cool and I hope things work out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I'm not talking about any "crusades", Spam. I'm talking about "honesty" and "hypocrisy". If making your family "happy" is the end all and be all of your existence, then why not live the lie RIGHT NOW? Making them happy isn't the end-all-be-all of my existence. Making me happy is what I strive for, and in most cases, making them happy makes me happy, but not always. I don't want to live a lie, because that impacts me in ways I don't like, and besides, I'm not a very good actor so I probably couldn't pull it off even if I wanted to. But once I'm dead I don't care anymore. I won't be there to deal with the consequences of such a lie (should it happen). Honestly, if it had no negative impact on me, and I were a better actor, I probably would lie to them right now. I do not see ethics for the sake of ethics to be of any value. So, while lying is generally not a good practice, it is a smart thing to do in certain situations. If you're going to convince me such an act would be bad, you'll have to explain how it will impact me. Knowing that I've releaved a lifetime of worry from them about whether or not I went to hell, would provide me comfort in my final hours as well. If I've made it to my deathbed and they still believe in silly mythologies, my opportunity to persuade them is over. That said, I don't know that I will/would do it. It just depends on how desparate they seem about the matter. My grandfather died last summer, and his deathbed conversion brought tremendous relief to my grandmother, my mother, and my uncles, so I have witnessed how it can benefit loved ones directly. Desparate times call for desparate measures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Making them happy isn't the end-all-be-all of my existence. Making me happy is what I strive for, and in most cases, making them happy makes me happy, but not always. I don't want to live a lie, because that impacts me in ways I don't like, and besides, I'm not a very good actor so I probably couldn't pull it off even if I wanted to. But once I'm dead I don't care anymore. I won't be there to deal with the consequences of such a lie (should it happen). Honestly, if it had no negative impact on me, and I were a better actor, I probably would lie to them right now. I do not see ethics for the sake of ethics to be of any value. So, while lying is generally not a good practice, it is a smart thing to do in certain situations. If you're going to convince me such an act would be bad, you'll have to explain how it will impact me. Knowing that I've releaved a lifetime of worry from them about whether or not I went to hell, would provide me comfort in my final hours as well. If I've made it to my deathbed and they still believe in silly mythologies, my opportunity to persuade them is over. That said, I don't know that I will/would do it. It just depends on how desparate they seem about the matter. My grandfather died last summer, and his deathbed conversion brought tremendous relief to my grandmother, my mother, and my uncles, so I have witnessed how it can benefit loved ones directly. Desparate times call for desparate measures. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think it's interesting that you have highlighted how you wouldn't be around to know the consequences of your lie - but find comfort in the thought that you would have saved them from a lifetime of worry. I guess the issue here is - would you in fact have saved them from a lifetime of worry, or would you have confirmed their beliefs and tied them to this thinking even tighter than they were before? Eventhough I know I wouldn't be around to know - I would want to demonstrate the same integrity in death as I've tried to show in life (which admittedly has been variable depending the circumstances ) I guess I'd be wanting to say something like - well, if God is love, he'll surely turn up and rescue me in the second after I draw my last breath here but before I draw my first in the next life - so don't you guys worry about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Ok, I started thinking about my own death, and how I would react under the situation. If I saw the desparation in the eyes of my family, I think I might fake reconversion for their sakes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wouldn't. In fact, I've been thinking about it myself, that exact scenario, and I was just imagining that I would counter every argument for reconversion, even the one where it makes my family more comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 You guys are welcome to do whatever you want, but if my son looks me in the eyes as I'm dying and says "dad, i don't want you to go to hell", I'm probably going to do whatever it takes to help him through the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearview Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 You guys are welcome to do whatever you want, but if my son looks me in the eyes as I'm dying and says "dad, i don't want you to go to hell", I'm probably going to do whatever it takes to help him through the moment. I understand that you would like for your passing to be as easy as possible on your family. I hope for your son's sake that when that time comes he will have no fear of you burning in hell because he knows there is no hell to burn in. That, while it may be difficult to accomplish, would certainly be the greater gift to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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