How To Argue With A Misinformed Christian

[Chris630]

Hi, first a little back story. I have a friend that I've had since early childhood, we grew up together, went to the same church, we're pretty much like brothers. Ever since I've become more agnostic and finally a solid agnostic atheist, he's tried to win me back from "the dark side", with argument after argument. He's really hard headed and it usually comes down to the statement that "I'm right and you're wrong, and all history and science point to god being real, and not just any god, but the christian god." I then proceed to tell him that that is completely untrue, at which point he mentions some vague reference about how most scientists agree that the universe came from something, and that something was god, its the only thing that makes sense. It's really hard to argue with him because he's so sure that he's right, does not have any proof, can't offer any direct references to any real proof, and when he does bring up a point(which I point out is incorrect and/or does not prove anything), he gets mad when i refute it, saying that I'm just in denial and I'm just trying to fight him, and that I'm "faking it", that I know in my heart deep down that god exists, I just want to rebel and sin etc.

His latest tactic was a christian apologetics book, "on no, here we go again", I thought. He then proceeded to show me parts of it, and started to lay out his ideas about the way life originated on earth and how the bible is the oldest made history. When I pointed out that there are many other histories that predate the bible, and that many historians don't even consider the bible a credible source, he laughed at me as if I was just stupid an ill informed. He informed me that all the other histories in the world refer to events in the bible, and that makes it verifiable and factual. I told him I'm pretty sure he's wrong, and that I'd need proof, he turned this into me just being hard headed and difficult, which is insane.

He goes on to make another point, which he started with the premise that Adam was 900 years old, and thus people back then lived hundreds of years. I said, woah wait, no, no they didn't. There is no proof of any of that, its a baseless assertion, he said no, all humans used to live longer, you can see that as you go backward in time, the lifespan got longer, and shrunk, and we are now living shorter and shorter lifespans. At this point I felt like I was in the twilight zone. I told him, no, that's totally untrue. The exact opposite was true, due to the advent of medicine, nutrition, and general knowledge of the human body. He acted as if I was crazy again and stated that his uncle showed him some website where someone, reportedly a scientist, states that people used to live hundreds of years. Of course, once again, no facts or references to actual things that I can look up were given. But clearly whoever this person is who said this is just some lone wacko, the rest of the scientific community agrees that lifespans have INCREASED as technology has increased.

 

Then, we get to evolution, which he seems to believe is totally wrong, based on nothing but a few bits of evidence, and just silly. Once again, I feel like I'm in another dimension. The idea that, with all the evidence for evolution, anyone would still try to refute it, just tells me that they haven't looked into the subject, and if they have, then "look into" means that they've watched a few creationist propaganda films and called it a day. "check mate atheists!"

I mean, come on. I understand ignorance, but to hold strong beliefs based on that ignorance seems insane to me. I informed him that there is conclusive proof of evolution, and I would show him it if he wanted, of course he then states that it had better not be a biased source, you know the scientists that are in a giant conspiracy to disprove god by lying to the public...it was then that I realized that in his mind, he will believe anyone who tells him what he wants to hear, and if its not what he wants to hear, he'll just say they are a liar and may be influenced by evil spirits. There is no winning with him, because anything that he doesn't like, he'll just say isn't true, without any real reason behind it except that he wants to believe something different.

 

He then went on to say that he thinks there is an evil spirit influencing me, that I have an "evil glow" about me. Yes, the devil is making my arguments be based on fact, and yours based on random crap that's been shown to be fallacies many times.. That's it. It has nothing to do with my own free will or intellect. It has nothing to do with logic, reason or science. Its all just the devil.

 

Sigh.

 

I partially blame all the misinformation out there by creationists, to the average person one person on a video who has an opinion, and can tell them that point of view A is right, is good enough for them. Never mind credentials, verifiable evidence, repeatability, etc. Once they get these twisted logic, straw man arguments in their head, they just take those as absolutely true and discard all others. They convince themselves that this is what the scientific community actually believes, and there's nothing that you can do to change it, because anyone who says their point of view is wrong, is just lying to trick them or something.

 

I thought that the apologetics book would bring on more interested arguments at least, but no, its just the same crap with a book to justify it.

 

My question, is how do you argue with someone like this? It's as though they simply won't accept proof on its face, they will not think logically, and will present proof that they "heard from their uncle"...I mean, WTF!?

 

Chris

[MaggieMae]

Sorry to say it, but the truth is that you just can't argue with someone like that. They aren't trying to have a discussion; they're telling you FACTS and anything that contradicts their FACTS must be based on evil conspiracies.

 

He doesn't want to listen, and you're probably wasting your time trying to get him to come around. My advice? Next time he brings it up just tell him you don't want to discuss those topics with him anymore. Don't let him bait you...it'll just convince him further that your "logic" is actually based on twisted lies from Satan.

[Chris630]

Thanks for the input... I think you're right, there's no point...I really need to keep myself from being baited, its my biggest weakness. I so want to infuse common sense and logic into their minds.

[florduh]

'Misinformed Christian' is the perfect oxymoron.

 

As I am prone to say so often, faith always trumps reason.

 

A "debate" between a rational mind and one addicted to blind faith is no debate at all. The less a thing makes sense, the stronger the faith to believe it anyway. Denying demonstrable fact and logic is actually empowering to a faithful believer. One might just as well argue with a hand towel.

[Snakefoot]

Florduh's signature sums it up nicely: "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. Gregory House

[Weetie]

You can't make someone disbelieve something if they're dead set on believing it no matter what. If you're sick of debating all this with your friend, tell them to stop it & just accept you the way you are. If they're not willing to do that, they're only interested in you as a "conquest for Jesus" and not really your friend. If you're not sick of debating, by all means continue, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you'll ever convince him of anything.

[Thurisaz]

Sorry to say it, but the truth is that you just can't argue with someone like that. They aren't trying to have a discussion; they're telling you FACTS and anything that contradicts their FACTS must be based on evil conspiracies.

 

He doesn't want to listen, and you're probably wasting your time trying to get him to come around. My advice? Next time he brings it up just tell him you don't want to discuss those topics with him anymore. Don't let him bait you...it'll just convince him further that your "logic" is actually based on twisted lies from Satan.

 

:whs:

 

The dogma armor around a morontheist's brain is impossible to pierce from the outside. Only if secret doubts already caused tiny cracks in it do you have any chance.

Commonly, such discussions/debates only have value to fencesitters (if any are present). If they are still wondering who might be right, the nonsense coming from the morontheist may well shove them into the right direction.

[OpheliaGinger]

Little bashings of of truth, over time, will eventually put cracks in their armor.

[RankStranger]

I have a good friend that sounds a lot like yours- known him since I was a kid. He usually brings up the subject- I've tried long, draw-out debates, trading links, analogies, biblical history. Nothing works... neither of us will budge an inch. I just avoid the subject with him lately. He's clearly convinced that he's found the TRUTH in modern American mega-church christianity- nothing I offer will change that.

 

I mean, really- if somebody is willing to believe that the earth is 6000 years old and Jesus rode a dinosaur to church just so they can hold on to their literalist beliefs... then reason isn't going to sway them.

[Mongo]

Wow, that guy's a true believer.

 

For the sake of your sanity your primary consideration should be to end the dispute as others have suggested.

 

I think many X-Cs here have a hard time with that. You don't strike me as having difficulty with anger toward being lied to and such but you still want your friend to see the light the same way that many of us want our friends and family to wake up. So you appear to be willingly going down the rat hole with your buddy.

 

When fundies frustrate us I think of the saying that the best revenge is to live a good life. I think that applies doubly for those who have left religion behind. If possible use your intellectual skills to comprehend why these people deserve our compassion. WE are free THEY are shackeled!

 

Ending a dispute however does not mean you can't hold up a figurative key in their face and remind them that they too can be set free - if they choose. It just means that you let them choose - free will. (However... your friend sounds like a complete goner!)

 

So... from the many many mistakes I've made in arguing with my family... I recommend you explore less confrontational means of challenging fundamentalism. A very good start is Dan Barkers's essays on How To Talk To A Fundamentalist. http://www.ffrf.org/about/bybarker/

 

I haven't read it in a while but I remember one really good point - offer them the fruit of thinking for themselves.

 

Someone on this board a long time ago made an excellent point that they like to ask good questions of their friends/family. I remember them saying they enjoyed making fundies crazy. I think it is a good reversal. Take notice here... your friend has YOU defending yourself. YOU are doing all the thinking and your friend is doing all the questioning. Do your friend a favour and turn that around. Make the mentally lazy guy do some work!!! Not in an antagonistic way but in an enquiring way. Using this as a strategy I would focus in on getting him to see the extent to which his mind has been trained to not think for itself.

 

I want to underscore that logic discussions are of little value in a mind that has sees the "right" conclusions as having logic that is not yet revealed. Usually it is just a matter of discussing the issue with an appropriate authority (uncle or pastor) who will uncover a quasi-logical path to the conclusion. This is pointless.

 

When your friend raises a topic, don't refute logically but question your friend with an intent to reveal that everything your friend believes rests on his trust of another person and not really god. A pastor, a relative, a scribe or translator or themselves. Ultimately the bible is a book written by people. I think Thomas Paine in The Age of Reason tackles this in the first chapter of the book(free online).

 

Ultimately that too will all boils down to an indivudual's personal experience and I think the only way to break through that armour is by showing your friend how people routinely deceive themselves and how their experiences are unreliable. That's a knife that cuts both ways and eventually leads to a relativeistic interpretation of one's own experience. This is a very tough arena to engage someone.

 

I don't think most people are comfortable with this zone of enquiry. There are many particularly skeptical books that your friend will never read and rather confrontational but a softer one that explains the minds own tricks in an informational... I would recommend "Mistakes Were Made - But Not By Me". It is a plainly and well written book that I thought was researched and shows why reasonable people believe and do dumb things.

 

However, the bottom line on our own experiences boil down to a basic question. Is what we beleive and how we interpret the world based on fear or love. If your friend is afraid of hell or family response then you might have an avenue to explore there. Ask him how he feels about other people who make fear based decisions. Conversely if your friend is on the "All good things come from god" side of the equasion, you can point to contradictions to that experience.

 

Knowing very little about your buddy.... here is where I'll place my bet: Your buddy likes belonging to the fundy club and he misses the fact that you're no longer part of it. You don't have much of a chance to open his eyes.

 

Another important point. Don't be suprised if the friendship dies if you reverse the roles and start asking him to question his (blind) trust in others.

 

For the sake of the friendship, I think it is a perfectly good choice to avoid the topic. After all, if he lives his life believing that he's going to heaven, you have nothing to feel guilty about if he dies believing this falacy.

 

My final point is that you may want to confront the "Evil glow" babble that he must use to explain away your disbelief. This is why I suggest "Good living". Your politeness as a response would be an uncomfortable contradiction that might open his eyes.

 

If he is truly a friend, I'd be direct and say "I think that is a terrible thing to say about somebody". "What makes you say something like that about me"?

(Keep in mind, he may be repeating something someone else said about you. I had a girlfriend who broke up with me because of a spirtual leader who conveyed to her what god was telling him. Yea right.)

"Why do you trust his /her opinion about me?" "How do you know it is god who is telling you I'm evil?"

I can make a whole logic tree for this line of questioning that forces him to confront these things he says.

 

If you go down this road with him in a respectful way that demonstrates that you want respect in return then he may question his fundamental beliefs. If it turns to a pissing match then you're sunk.

 

Well, that's a lot of options. I hope it helps.

 

Mongo

[RationalOkie]

I always point out the most ridiculous and cartoonish bible stories I can think of and then quickly exit the conversation. For example: "Hey, believe whatever you want..it's a free country. I just can't believe in talking donkeys, talking snakes, 900 year old men, three day's in a whale, dude's walking on water and all that stuff." THEN SAY, "IF BELIEVING THOSE MYTHS HELP YOU THEN GREAT, HAVE A GOOD LIFE. BUT I DON'T NEED THAT STUFF."

 

Last time I used this my brother in law said, "Well, ...now you can't just take the bible literally". To which I responded, "Then what good is it then? If you have to filter out the mythology from the supposed reality how do you know any of it's real?" Answer, you don't and you can't EVER...so, S.T.F.U.! {this last part is optional}

[oddbird1963]

When fundies frustrate us I think of the saying that the best revenge is to live a good life. I think that applies doubly for those who have left religion behind. If possible use your intellectual skills to comprehend why these people deserve our compassion. WE are free THEY are shackeled!

 

. . .

 

My final point is that you may want to confront the "Evil glow" babble that he must use to explain away your disbelief. This is why I suggest "Good living". Your politeness as a response would be an uncomfortable contradiction that might open his eyes.

 

 

Mongo,

 

You make a great point. The good life approach is effective, it's just a long-run approach in which a you don't see the results for quite a number of months or years - - if ever.

 

The contradiction between what fundies say about atheist "sinners" and the quality of their life is not lost on any believers who are sensitive, observant and thoughtful. If a friend has too much pride, however, they may never let on that your good life causes cognitive dissonance because it seems to show that what preachers, teachers, and grandpapa said about those "poor atheists" or those "damned atheists" just doesn't seem to be true.

 

I know when I was still a christian and "backslidden" (I hadn't been going to church or living like I believed I was supposed to at the time) a friend who was "on fire" for Jesus motivated me to "re-dedicate" my life. We had argued about doctrine 'til we were both blue in the face, but it was the simple joy of his life that made me realize I needed to "rededicate."

 

So, I think an atheist living a good life can have a positive effect, in the long run.

 

There is another reason to live a good life in front of fundies. To live the good life you have to seek the good life. That means, study, self-improvement, reflection, and finding fun places with fun people to go to. That can only lead to good things for you.

 

So if you never see your fundie friends come around, there is nothing but advantage in seeking the good life.

[Ozymandias]

My question, is how do you argue with someone like this? It's as though they simply won't accept proof on its face, they will not think logically, and will present proof that they "heard from their uncle"...I mean, WTF!?

 

Sadly, Chris, it's not always possible. When reason is not accepted as vital to argumentation, then true conversation is dead. How could you reason with someone who has already given up on letting reason change their mind? The fact that he has an apologetics book might be a good sign (as it tries to assert the reasonableness of Scripture), but he sounds like he's not willing to really ask the important questions.

 

Good luck!

[Ouroboros]

"How To Argue With A Misinformed Christian?"

 

Answer: you don't. To them, it's only a one-way street. They are right, and you are wrong. No argument applies.

[hereticzero]

I have friend in Utah, non-Mormon, who comes to visit on occasion. He is a fundy. When we discuss religion and evolution, I can persuade him to see the futility of xtianity and its doctrine. That is, until he goes home and runs back to a xtian summer camp that reindoctrinates him to xtianity again--he goes to a revival to get that holiness moving again. You cannot lead someone to water to drink unless you first make them thirsty. If a person never develops a thirst for truth, he will never take a drink and never have an independent thought. All I can do is keep offering a drink in the hopes he will someday get thirsty.

[RisenTree]

You know how, at work, you might tell someone giving you a hard time to take the matter to the supervisor? Try that. Tell him that you're done, to take the matter to his God instead.

[Guest Icedender]

You really shouldn't be expecting to change anyones mind through argument. The very nature of it causes an individual to simply firmly hold their own beliefs and at that point they aren't trying to find any answers to their questions, they're just trying to disprove your answers.

 

If you hope to make any ground pursuading anyone about anything the best way would be through debate. You should establish rules for your conversations suggesting that neither of you will make claims that can't be backed up with physical evidence and that you should in fact only be allowed to make any claims at all when you can show that evidence. If you want to encourage your friend to debate simply state that if he can present an argument that can stand up to debate and to testing like the scientific evidence that I'm sure you use over and over again in your arguements, If he can present that kind of case then that you would in fact be forced to change your mind.

 

Luckily all this earth needs is patience and it'll weed out all the ideas that ask one to ignore scientific evidence. With the way that information is accessible today It only takes a certain level of understanding and a certain amount of key knowledge to be able to personally refute theological claims and now, with that kind of knowledge at the fingertips of almost anyone willing to look and logically evaluate, I have no doubt that as we continue to evolve intellectually as humans the realities of this universe will become clear to everyone and illogical concepts will be abolished.

[Seeking]

Sorry to say it, but the truth is that you just can't argue with someone like that. They aren't trying to have a discussion; they're telling you FACTS and anything that contradicts their FACTS must be based on evil conspiracies.

 

Man, this description sounds exactly like my dad. Fortunately, he's unaware of my ongoing journey toward faithlessness, but he still feels the need to constantly preach out all of his narrow-minded ideas in both religion and politics. It is so hard to keep my mouth shut around him, but I make myself do it, realizing the futility of ever arguing with him. Besides, it'd break his heart to know I don't agree with him.

[Antlerman]

My question, is how do you argue with someone like this? It's as though they simply won't accept proof on its face, they will not think logically, and will present proof that they "heard from their uncle"...I mean, WTF!?

You don't argue proofs with someone like this. I'd get to the reasons behind why he wants to believe things as he does. Since he obviously knows nothing of either the Bible or science, or history, or frankly it sounds like not much of anything (he sounds like he's about 12 years old actually), then clearly all he's doing is lashing out at anything that he sees as challenging him to go beyond what he's prepared for.

 

I'd talk about how Christians come from Christian families, Buddhists from Buddhist families, Muslims from Muslim families, etc. Illustrate how these beliefs are cultural, and not based on data research of science and history. That might be just enough thought to open the door for him to look at the world.

 

An old saying for you to consider: "A man convinced against his will, remains of same opinion still".

[Chris630]

I hope its ok that I'm resurrecting this post, I wanted to update you guys on the situation.

 

So, I went over his uncle's house(I've known him since I was like 12, hes a generally cool guy), and it was funny because I could tell that his uncle wanted to bring it up, I assume they had conversations about what I've said to my friend. There was serious tension, the elephant in the room. He kept making small leading comments, so I bit, of course. What resulted was probably a 2 hour(if not more) discussion.

 

I'm happy to say that I totally owned. It was the first debate where I really had most of my bases covered. (In the past I hadn't really read into apologetics / counter-apologetics, lately I've been reading a lot more about the subject and listening to the atheist experience, which is great btw)

It was really nice to be able to really be strong in my beliefs and reasons for them.

 

First he tried attacking evolution, which basically came down to an "is to, is not" argument, as he is terribly uninformed in what evolution explains and what it is in general. He insisted that it was a crap theory with holes all through it.

He then tried to point out that it violated the laws of thermodynamics, esp. the 2nd. This is a great example where they love to create straw men of scientific findings and then beat them up. Of course anyone who looks into the law itself knows that the 2nd law doesn't apply to open systems, such as earth, or biological creatures, who are affected by outside energy, like oh I don't know, the sun.

I told him about recent findings, that pretty much prove to a high degree of certainty, the common ancestry of humans and apes, etc. (retro viral DNA, the fused ape chromosome humans seem to have, etc)

 

He then pointed out that I couldn't know any of this for sure, which led me to say, and you CAN know the bible for sure? Then we went to the bible, (im)morality of god, inconsistencies, and just the fact that there's just some outlandish things in there(like talking animals and people flying)

This also went well, as being a exfundie myself I know my bible fairly well.

It kept going back to, "why are you mad at god?", you know, the "why don't you love Jesus no more?" type questions. They just couldn't accept that I'm not mad, because I don't believe he exists.

 

We left off with him saying he'd look into the evolution things, so maybe I actually got through a little bit. Who knows.

 

The best thing is that my friend, who was there interjecting in the conversation, stated at the end that he just wanted to warn me, and now he has. If I don't listen then he'll be in heaven, and he won't miss me(which I said was kind of messed up, then he explained that god would make him forget so its not his fault..lol), but that he thinks he's said all he has to say about it and he won't talk to me again about it.

So, woot! I think its over, and I went out with quite a satisfying bang.

[Shyone]

 

The best thing is that my friend, who was there interjecting in the conversation, stated at the end that he just wanted to warn me, and now he has. If I don't listen then he'll be in heaven, and he won't miss me(which I said was kind of messed up, then he explained that god would make him forget so its not his fault..lol), but that he thinks he's said all he has to say about it and he won't talk to me again about it.

So, woot! I think its over, and I went out with quite a satisfying bang.

Well, I suppose you won the argument, but the only person you convinced was yourself. I imagine that's why most of us don't try to talk to religious folks much.

 

Now, if your friend or uncle had said, "Wow, I didn't know that. I'll have to reconsider my beliefs," then that would have meant you carried the day. As it is, you won't know the results for along time, if ever. I'd be willing to bet that they won't suddenly abandon their lifelong beliefs though.

[Chris630]

The best thing is that my friend, who was there interjecting in the conversation, stated at the end that he just wanted to warn me, and now he has. If I don't listen then he'll be in heaven, and he won't miss me(which I said was kind of messed up, then he explained that god would make him forget so its not his fault..lol), but that he thinks he's said all he has to say about it and he won't talk to me again about it.

So, woot! I think its over, and I went out with quite a satisfying bang.

 

Thanks for the update. If I had commented previously, I probably would have encouraged you to refuse to be baited, but I'm glad you didn't. It sounds like it was gratifying and good for your confidence that you could not only hold your own but actually score. Your friend's decision not to talk to you about it again may be a sign that he felt some uncomfortable cracks starting in his armor and doesn't want to experience that again.

 

Question for you: If he were to live up to his decision not to keep harping about Jesus and evolution, what would the friendship be like? Do you have fun together? Have a similar sense of humor? Share a hobby or interest? What would hold you together as friends, "almost like brothers," in addition to shared memories of good times together?

 

It was gratifying, and as another poster commented, perhaps I didn't really change any minds,I'm betting that I didn't, and I don't really feel that I wanted to, I mean if their beliefs make them happy and fulfilled, then go them, I simply didn't want to have to put up with their condescension of my beliefs, or lack thereof. The gratification was more just in the idea of being able to support and defend my views somewhat proficiently.(at least for a layperson)

 

To answer your question about my friendship with him, yes on all accounts. We have lots of fun together, make each other laugh a lot, share several hobbies, and most importantly, he's just a good friend when it counts. He can be pigheaded and stubborn, and just plain wrong on occasion, but he's the type of friend who you know has your back and will help you when you need it, and he does it not begrudgingly with a "you owe me one" attitude, but with an "of course I'll help" attitude, is if it was the only choice all along. I can't say I have many friends like that.