Guest MattH Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hi everyone, I'm relatively new to this forum, so I thought I should start out with just a brief introduction. No long bio or anything, just enugh to give you a sense of where I'm at. To begin with, I began "officially" calling myself an atheist about three or four years ago, after reading Dawkins' The God Delusion. I would call the 12 years or so preceding this a gradual progression from deism to agnosticism, to pretty sure there was no god, but not quite sure how to argue the position. My childhood years, I was brought up in a fairly fundamentalist Christian home. Many of you probably have or have heard similar stories about the beginnings of doubt springing up in middleschool or high school biology classes, when evolution is first properly explained, and moreso, the true scientific meaning of what it is to be a theory. Now I've been married for about two and a half years, and my wife is a Christian. It's a bit more complicated than that though, as she's about as far to the opposite extreme of fundamentalism as you could imagine. She thinks science makes a strong argument for the age of the universe, and the earth; believes women have a right to choose what to do with their bodies, although she personally would not use abortion simply as a means of contraception. She believes homosexuals have every right that any other citizen has, whether it be marriage, health benefits, employment, etc.; she'll tell you that since we took a religious institution [marriage] and turned it into a legal one, it lost any standing it might have had from any particular religion's perspective. Incidentally, I'm personally not the most familiar with the history of marriage, but I'd imagine there are some out there who could back up the claim that it wasn't originally a religious institution, but i digress... Suffice it to say, in a practical day-to-day sense, we have no philosophical differences, and we both love and respect each other, despite the fact that one believes in god, and the other is indifferent to the whole idea, but if pressed, will tell you, there's no reason to believe, and since you can't logically prove something doesn't, then the burden of proof lies with whoever claims there is a god. Otherwise, I think chances are exceedingly slim that any god exists. Getting back to the point... We found out in December last year that we were having our first baby. We are now about 35 weeks along, and the baby is due very soon. I'm wondering how concerned I should be about his (as well as other possible future children's) upbringing. Where my wife and I stand is an amicable "agree-to-disagree" on the subject of god. Recently though, she's talked about how she feels responsible to at least expose our son to some Christian ideas - and let him decide when he's old enough. She kind of has that Pascal's Wager philosophy of just-in-case; nothing to lose if she's wrong. As an atheist, however, I'm concerned about a) what Richard Dawkins called child-abuse, i.e. dictating the child's religion, and identifying it as a "Christian child" or "Hindu child", or what have you. I'm concerned about him having to deal with the same baggage many of us had to overcome in our own deconversion. I'm not overly concerned about infant baptism and circumcision; but when he gets a little older, I'm concerned about things like Sunday School. We don't regularly attend church now, but that's something my wife has said she wants to get in a better habit of doing when the baby is older. On the other hand though, it doesn't seem right for two parents to be giving contradictory messages to our children. Part of my frustration too, is that in so many ways, my wife is so close to the tipping point of atheism, but the part she's holding on to is the emotional comfort her belief in a god brings to her. In my own experience, it was very much an academic exercise. I was actually a pretty zealous fundamentalist Christian until about the age of 14 or 15, but one difference between us is that I've never had any significant emotional issues during which I "depended on god." She on the other hand, without going into a lot of detail, had an abusive childhood, including a rape and subsequent suicide attempts before graduating high school. I did not know her at the time, but as she describes it, she never had a religious upbringing, but during her first marriage which ended up being very unhappy, her finding god is what she felt like brought her through it. She has said that she sometimes felt that god brought me into her life to help her survive to end the marriage and start a new life. So...I can definitely understand the strong emotional appeal of some aspects of Christianity for her. But take that away, again, she's extremely intelligent and fairly skeptical. She has a sharp grasp of how science works, and again for the most part, you wouldn't even know she was religious unless you got to know her well, and really asked about it. Well, my apologies, this post seems a bit rambling, because I'm writing between taking phone calls at work, so I'll leave it at that for now. I'll be happy to share more if it becomes relevant, but I wanted to see what insights others in the non-believing community might offer. Thanks a lot! This really seems like a great community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted July 16, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hello and welcome. Regarding the upbringing of your children... Good books on the subject are Dale McGowan's Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Freethinkers. Since your wife is already so close to atheism, perhaps these books will help push her over the edge. I wish these books had been around when I was raising kids. Looking forward to hearing more from you. Good luck and congratulations on the soon-to-be-born-little-one! http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I think two strong arguments against your wife's type of xtianity(one i used to hold also) is that if she's ignoring all the bad parts of the bible (women should be subjugated) why is she trusting the parts she likes? Does she know who actually wrote the bible? The second is what makes her any different from a Buddhist, or worshiper of Odin? Why would she reject those religions and not her own? The last hurdle for me was the disappointment that death was death, but I began to realize that that realization was not only logical and fit in with my experiences, but that we could still live on by doing good works to those around us, and it also meant that life's happiness became more precious,...no need to sacrifice your current happiness for the supposed rewards of afterlife. Of course, I'm not suggesting you deliberately argue with her...I'm married too :-) The works of Daniel Quinn, like his novel Ishmael, may be interesting to you and to her. The are not often specifically about religion, more about human nature and human history, but they helped me come to terms with why I had the beliefs I did, and see them in a perspective that I had not been able to grasp beforehand. If she is intelligent it may suck her in as it did with me, and at least push her into a deist perspective which implies less childhood indoctrination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I can't help you with your wife, as mine is agnostic and we have raised our children religion-free. What I can do is assure you that children raised without religion can be very happy and well-adjusted. My kids have never seen the inside of a church apart from weddings, funerals, and a few school events. They are popular among peers and successful in school and athletics. We have only had a few "encounters" with people who have a problem with our lack of religion. A few kids in daycare told my kids we were all going to hell. The kids asked me about it and I told them that notion was nonsense, and it never bothered them to hear it again. We hosted a party a couple of weeks back, and a fundy friend noticed some Harry Potter books and warned my daughters about the dark side and informed them that "God is a jealous god". They just nodded and went about their business. I never thought it would be this easy in East Tennessee. The world is changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 My wife was at first disturbed by my deconversion from the church. I left the church almost ten years after we were married. She has since then, come around to my way of thinking but she still holds to some of her beliefs. One book I liked concerning leaving the faith is 'Farewell To God', by Charles Templeton, who was at one time a minister with the Billy Graham ministry, in its earliest years. That book is what made me believe that leaving the faith was ok. Until I read that book, I honestly had no idea people who had been in the religion for so long could actually and successfully leave the church. My wife does not like to read but she does like me reading to her, so the book gave her a lot to think about as well. About marriage originating in religion: There is a difference between marriage and a marriage ceremony. American Indians gave each other in marriage for centuries before Europeans brought a religious ceremony to them. I believe marriages originated by two people simply announcing their desires to live together as a couple. These days, the ceremony is more of a show than a religious requirement because sometimes even none believers exchange vows before a minister. Historically, I do not see where marriage itself originated through religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Wow... your wife sounds alot like mine but more skeptical. When we met she didn't go to church and I was completely open with her about my fundy past and my non-belief. My wife has a vague xtianish and what-everish belief system and then when the kids arrived she felt morally bound to bring them to church. Since she's generally ignorant about xtian matters I didn't think she'd be able to "pull off" making them xtian. I have asserted two points to her that she hasn't balked at. 1 - Ignorance can and should be cured. If she or others teach the kids silly xtian stuff then I can't pretend that falsehoods are true. I will do the research and set the facts straight. (e.g. evolution) 2 - I cannot accept teaching our kids the concept of original sin or any teaching that makes them perceive themselves as evil or bad. She agreed and I bet your wife will too. In this thread I wrote a fair bit on agreeing to disagree. I think some of it applies to your situation. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=31828&st=0&p=468168entry468168 Also I looked for opportunities to demonstrate that morality is not derived from religion. I suspect this is the key issue with our wives. Look in daily life, news and people you know, and use the good ones to demonstrate the irrelevance of religion to morals. The same goes for pointing out religious abuse as demonstrating that religion doesn't really make for good morals. There is alot for you to play with in this arena. Lastly, I let my wife peter out on religion. For whatever reason, she could not connect with a church and they kept asking her to do things and she's busy enough with the family and a 1/2 time job. However, if she hadn't, I had plans to open their eyes to many different things and ensure they discover many ideas without judgement. I often tell them to think for themselves and that many adults have wrong ideas and they need to be able to figure out for themselves what is correct. Your tone suggests that you might go to church with her. That - I refused to do - unless the kids were involved in something. I don't think I'd send the kids the message that I agreed with mommy. I think it is important that they see a difference in opinion. Not only that, I think they really benefit if they can see that you two can agree to disagree without requiring the other to censor the other opinion. That may be the best way to ensure they don't let others walk over them. It is very very important for them to learn to be their own person. That said... you should be respectful as I mentioned in the other thread. Mongo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattH Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Good evening! Thank you all for your kind words and helpful suggestions, especially the book recommendations. I'm always reading, so these sound like great ideas. Will be sure to keep everyone posted, not just on the baby, but my wife too, as she progresses down the path of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Been there, done that. My wife and I agreed that our son would have to be old enough to make his own decisions when it comes to religion; that we wouldn't force any one religion on him, and encourage him to check them all out. Meanwhile, Mother-In-Law works hard at putting the fear of hell and Jebus shit in his head. Fortunately for me, everyone went along with the "Santa Claus" and "Tooth Fairy" games, and my son is old enough now to draw parallels. I also picked him up a couple of Dan Barker books, which are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagan Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I'm concerned about things like Sunday School. We don't regularly attend church now, but that's something my wife has said she wants to get in a better habit of doing when the baby is older. On the other hand though, it doesn't seem right for two parents to be giving contradictory messages to our children. I am in the same boat. I finally told my wife everything about my rejection of Christianity, and the question of our young kids is the major issue between us now. One is Sunday School age (almost 4) and was freaked out by the Easter story (can't blame her). She takes the stuff literally, telling me a few weeks ago that "Jesus is in my heart and he's eating my dinner." Shows me how ridiculous the concept really is. I still give my tacit approval for her to go (but the second they start teaching about hellfire and condemnation, my daughter is out of there) because I don't feel I can fight with my wife about this right now, the shock and pain for her of learning about my rejection of faith is still fresh, although I have made it clear that if the kids ask questions I will tell them what I think, plain and simple. I know some will advocate we ex-Christian stick to our principles and take a stand, but I'm not ready for a battle yet. I'm going to church with the family, for now, because the kids would find it quite disturbing if I wasn't there. But I don't think I'll be attending for much longer. Good luck with your family, all I can say is just make sure your kids know you love them, no matter what, and tell them so every day at least once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KKnox Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 She thinks science makes a strong argument for the age of the universe, and the earth; believes women have a right to choose what to do with their bodies, although she personally would not use abortion simply as a means of contraception. She believes homosexuals have every right that any other citizen has, whether it be marriage, health benefits, employment, etc. ... Suffice it to say, in a practical day-to-day sense, we have no philosophical differences, and we both love and respect each other, despite the fact that one believes in god, and the other is indifferent to the whole idea ... Part of my frustration too, is that in so many ways, my wife is so close to the tipping point of atheism, but the part she's holding on to is the emotional comfort her belief in a god brings to her. MattH, This description of your wife is exactly how I would describe mine. It's uncanny. I'm glad you raised this issue and to see there are some good recommendations in reply. I never thought it would be this easy in East Tennessee. The world is changing. Ro-bear, I live right down the road from you in Karns, and am glad to know there are others like me in the Knoxville area and that raising your children religion-free has been "easy". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddinhead Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Congrats on your pregnancy! Parenting is the most worthwhile thing I've done on this planet. Like you, I used to worry about raising "godless" kids. I did a lot of work trying to have some sort of "morality" class in lieu of Sunday School. Now I'm old. My two eldest are at the university and my youngest is 14. Here is what I have found out, and what I would have loved to have heard when I was in your place. Morality isn't taught in one hour a week at a special "morality building." It is taught in everything we do and everything we say with our children. I didn't need to worry so much. My kids didn't have a sky god nor a 10 commandments to help them know right from wrong. They grew up to be fantastically ethical people simply by looking at how they would want others to treat them. When my daughter was in the 6th grade, her teacher told me that she "models compassion for the other students." He told me that he would send her in when other kids had disagreements, because she had a knack for helping people learn how to get along. I couldn't have been happier or more surprised. Both kids also were very straight edge when it came to alcohol and drugs, even though I wasn't dogmatic in the least about it. The youngest one was even on the state board for an anti teen-drinking club. They are very well adjusted, compassionate and very, very moral people. They volunteer more than any of their christian cousins. While their christian cousins have had trouble in just about every area of life, my kids have maintained practical cool heads. I tell them "You're a much better human being than I was at your age." Without a god, all we have is this day, this life, in which to make a positive difference. We don't have forever in Super Happy Funland to get things right. I tend to think that this is the inspiration that drives my kids towards having such a positive and caring attitude toward the world and their place in it. I'm sure that your own child will view the world in the same way. And give your wife a little time Has she ever read "Christianity Must Change or Die" by Spong? That might be a great read for her and a lot of libraries carry that one. It took my husband 5 years from my conversion to Atheism, but we got to the same place with very few bumps in the road. Best wishes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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