Checkmate Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Source Let Us Reason Every once in a while I like to review the Christian criterion for determining who is a cult. Since we all know that Christians are the resident experts on who is and who is NOT a cult, I figure I will defer to their sage counsel in this matter. Funny things is, everytime I read one of these "cult" definitions, I can't help but be struck by the fact that Christianity qualifies as a "cult" as well! And then I wonder: Why can't they SEE this? Why don't they recognize they are describing themselves? Sheesh! Here's an excerpt with which to entertain yourself. See if you can spot the cult qualifiers for Xianity. I won't tip the scales by pointing them out. YOU make the call. Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them? Has someone replaced your own choices in life? Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn’t receive correction, they weren’t open or they had a bad heart and didn’t want to be disciples? Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ? If you want to leave are you being told their(sic) is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell? Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard? Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple? Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies? Are they putting down other church’s and building themselves up? Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing? Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church? Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous? Do they call those who leave fall away’s and enemies, dogs returning to their own vomit, using the examples of Korah or Judas? Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection? Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities? If not, you're spirituality and dedication are questioned. Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong? Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise? Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I’m saying is right. True disciples did not question Jesus. So...what do you think? Do the Protestant/Baptist churches have the right to cast stones at the JW, the Mormons, the Catholics, the Unification Church, the Ass of God, Disciples of Christ, etc? Do these other churches have the right to cast similar stones at the Protestants and Baptists? Or are ALL churches fucking CULTS?!? You make the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indoctrinated Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 I reckon the following quotes are a dead give away: Percentages show that those who join these aberrant groups formerly attended Christian Churches. Their (sic) are 2 categories of cults one is doctrinally the other is sociologically. So could this be that they just want to accuse their competitors? People who disagree with "us" is not an adequate definition of a cult, no matter how they dress it up. They seem to have half cottoned on to the idea that it is considered more PC to talk about behaviours which are unhelpful, and many of which can occur, under certain circumstances, in most groups. (Although they seem to occur very often in religious groups. This is me being fair and diplomatic! :wink: ) But they haven't quite got the hang of it. Surprise! Words that spring to mind: something about setting ones own house in order first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 ...Or are ALL churches fucking CULTS?!? You make the call. Technically, of course the churches are all cults. Or rather, they can qualify just as easily as the small groups. It all depends solely on how zealously the given group behaves. Compare your average US church with the German Lutheran church for example, with its easy-going "Be kind to each other and drop in at church every once in a while, that's about all that matters"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead_hobbit Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Out of curiosity, when you were "obeying OT laws", was it because you had become a Messianic or because you had abandoned Christianity for Judaism/Noahidism? Fundementalists call any other church a cult. One of my Aunts dropped me instantly when I started obeying OT laws. She said that she couldn't speak to anymore because I'd been brainwashed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Or are ALL churches fucking CULTS?!? You make the call. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Or are ALL churches fucking CULTS?!? You make the call. Amen to that. Some are more dangerous than others, but it doesn't make the not-dangerous ones any less cults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewizard Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Fundementalists call any other church a cult. One of my Aunts dropped me instantly when I started obeying OT laws. She said that she couldn't speak to anymore because I'd been brainwashed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's stupid, but now I know why the Jews always called Jesus a false Messiah, cause he really was, he didnt obey the Torah laws and didn't fulfill the Jewish prophecies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Mr. Grinch.... Since you did not place this in the debate forum, I'm going to express my point of view. I can honestly answer "no" to every one of those questions. Maybe I'm just lucky and have managed to remain in a church that recognizes it's own weaknesses and strives to do better; better for the church and better for the community surrounding it. However, there is one area that I almost said "yes" to. Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities? If not, you're spirituality and dedication are questioned. I have struggled with this a bit over the last year. But the more I think about it, nobody has ever made me feel that way. I think I've created that in my own head and talked myself into feeling guilty when I sometimes have to say no to something. Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard? This is also a pressure I often put upon myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Well, let's see. I went to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church when I was a kid. So here are my answers for them. Are you told not to question what is being taught because the leaders are honest and want the best for you so you must trust them? Has someone replaced your own choices in life? Yes. Are you told not to ask questions why anyone left, your to accept the answers the leaders give you such as: they fell into sin, they didn’t receive correction, they weren’t open or they had a bad heart and didn’t want to be disciples? Yes. Are you told that you must be with their certain church or group to be saved and not by Jesus Christ? Yes. If you want to leave are you being told their(sic) is no other church that practices truth, you will go to hell? Yes. Are you made to feel your failures, that your performance is not up to par for the bibles standard? Yes, although this was mostly becasue of my mother, though partly because of the church too. Are you being rebuked for things such as the way you say hello or how you respond to being asked to do something for a leader or disciple? Do they tell you its a matter of the heart how one complies? Not that I recall. Are they putting down other church’s and building themselves up? Do they sometimes use people as examples of what you are to be doing and others on what you are not to be doing? Yes. All the time. Do they bring attention to what they do, and ignoring others that may be doing the same things outside their church? Yes. Do they put down others to make themselves look better, calling themselves righteous and others unrighteous? Definitely. Do they call those who leave fall away’s and enemies, dogs returning to their own vomit, using the examples of Korah or Judas? Yes. Do they stop you from reading anything negative about themselves calling it spiritual pornography or recommend you not to read it for your own spiritual protection? Yes! And my mother had some weird thing about science fiction and fantasy too, because it was "evil and Satanic". But I was allowed to watch classic reruns of Star Trek, I Dream of Jeannie, and Bewitched...go figure. Do they recommend for you to be around their people expecting you to be at all the group activities? If not, you're spirituality and dedication are questioned. Sometimes. Do they defend all that they do even though it can be harmful or wrong? Yes. Do they operate by humility or are they arrogant and demand you to obey if you are considering otherwise? Or is it done subtly by manipulating you into obeying by statements such as, real Christians obey their leaders or if you were following Jesus you would see what I’m saying is right. True disciples did not question Jesus. They were very arrogant and manipulative. Now, since I answered yes to all but one of these, I'd say that pretty much determines that the Missouri Synod Lutheran church is really a cult in disguise. Or at least, the one that I went to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 Funny things is, everytime I read one of these "cult" definitions, I can't help but be struck by the fact that Christianity™ qualifies as a "cult" as well! It certainly does! And then I wonder: Why can't they SEE this? Why don't they recognize they are describing themselves? Sheesh! Because they've got the TRUTH, Brother! Glory! Seriously, it's primarily because they are brainwashed and indoctrinated, and are either unable or unwilling to take an honest look at their beliefs. It's obvious to us that fundamentalist Christianity is an anti-science, anti-intellectual cult whose core beliefs are clearly false, but it's not obvious to them. Those who belong to cults don't generally believe that they belong to a cult. My mother used to attend my church occasionally to hear me sing when I did a solo while most of us forked over some money to god (and of course I always hoped that the Magic Sky Man would reach her and she would get slaved), and it was obvious to her that I was getting deeply involved in a dangerous cult, but there was no way in hell that she could have convinced me of that fact at the time, though she certainly did try. I was a cult member, blind to the fact that I was a cult member, and NOT open to being deprogrammed at the time. That's where most cult members are, until events transpire that cause them to seriously question their beliefs. This 3-page article that I wrote back in 2002 has been posted to my site for a long time. It clearly identifies fundamentalist Christianity as a Destructive Cult using their own cult identification criteria! Glory! http://www.religionisbullshit.org/fciscult1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 Great site, brother Jeff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 Great site, brother Jeff! Thanks, Sister Amethyst! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveL Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Sadly enough, The Skeptics Dictionary doesn't classify Christianity in the same light, limiting their definitions to the more publicised cults eg Heavens Gate etc. However, I'm sure you could argue for Christianity on the following points: http://www.skepdic.com/cults.html Three ideas seem essential to the concept of a cult. One is thinking in terms of us versus them with total alienation from "them." The second is the intense, though often subtle, indoctrination techniques used to recruit and hold members. The third is the charismatic cult leader. Cultism usually involves some sort of belief that outside the cult all is evil and threatening; inside the cult is the special path to salvation through the cult leader and his teachings. The indoctrination techniques include 1) Subjection to stress and fatigue 2) Social disruption, isolation and pressure 3) Self criticism and humiliation 4) Fear, anxiety, and paranoia 5) Control of information 6) Escalating commitment 7) Use of auto-hypnosis to induce "peak" experiences [Kevin Crawley] Of course, there is a positive side to cults. One gets love, a sense of belonging, of fulfilling a special purpose, of being protected, of being free from the evils of the world, of being on the path to eternal salvation, of having power. If the cult did not satisfy needs that life outside the cult failed to satisfy, cults would probably not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 It certainly does!Because they've got the TRUTH, Brother! Glory! Seriously, it's primarily because they are brainwashed and indoctrinated, and are either unable or unwilling to take an honest look at their beliefs. It's obvious to us that fundamentalist Christianity is an anti-science, anti-intellectual cult whose core beliefs are clearly false, but it's not obvious to them. Those who belong to cults don't generally believe that they belong to a cult. My mother used to attend my church occasionally to hear me sing when I did a solo while most of us forked over some money to god (and of course I always hoped that the Magic Sky Man would reach her and she would get slaved), and it was obvious to her that I was getting deeply involved in a dangerous cult, but there was no way in hell that she could have convinced me of that fact at the time, though she certainly did try. I was a cult member, blind to the fact that I was a cult member, and NOT open to being deprogrammed at the time. That's where most cult members are, until events transpire that cause them to seriously question their beliefs. This 3-page article that I wrote back in 2002 has been posted to my site for a long time. It clearly identifies fundamentalist Christianity as a Destructive Cult using their own cult identification criteria! Glory! http://www.religionisbullshit.org/fciscult1.htm <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How true everything on that article is.....I remember when I first realized and came to grips with the fact that I had been in a cult (christianity).... it was really shocking to me for a while. It is a major realization to come to terms with. Thanks~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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