Neon Genesis Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Xtians often preach that God created free will because he doesn't want robots to worship him and without freewill we cannot hold people responsible for their actions. But I don't get it why is determinism a bad thing in itself? Why does determinism lead to a lack of justice? As far as I can tell, the only reason why determinism means we can no longer have justice is because xtians say so. But xtians don't believe animals have souls and presumably animals are just robots, yet even animals will protect their children from harm. Why do animals protect their children from harm if a lack of freewill leads to a lack of justice? If you admit the animals are choosing to protect their children yet don't believe animals have souls, then you admit you don't need the supernatural to have freewill and so the xtians' argument that freewill needs God to exist has no basis in reality and is flat out wrong. Or they must admit that freewill is not necessary to have justice. But if we're determined and do not have freewill, this does not mean we should have no justice. What this means is we have to change our justice system so that our goals are to protect people from harm, not to seek vengeance like so many xtians seem to love even though the bible speaks against vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 "I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 But xtians don't believe animals have souls and presumably animals are just robots, yet even animals will protect their children from harm. Not having a soul doesn't mean you're a robot, in the xian worldview. It just means you can't sin. Why do animals protect their children from harm if a lack of freewill leads to a lack of justice? If you admit the animals are choosing to protect their children yet don't believe animals have souls, then you admit you don't need the supernatural to have freewill and so the xtians' argument that freewill needs God to exist has no basis in reality and is flat out wrong. Free will in the philosophical sense is not the same as free will in the xian sense. In the philosophical sense, free will is the ability to make choices. Xians would say that even animals have the ability to choose, but what they don't have is the ability to sin. IOW, free will in the xian worldview is the ability to choose to sin or not to sin, not merely the ability to make choices. The reasoning is that animals cannot choose between right and wrong, because those concepts are alien to them. When an animal acts according to its base instincts, it is doing nothing wrong. Only humans have to choose not to act according to our base instincts, because that would be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Davka my Forrest Gump quote was way better than your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Davka my Forrest Gump quote was way better than your post. Well, yeah. And probably just as accurate, too. *sigh* Sometimes, there's just not enough rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 If free will is to choose to sin or not to sin, then there is no free will because one cannot choose not to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 If free will is to choose to sin or not to sin, then there is no free will because one cannot choose not to sin. Don't use logic with me, young man! Supposedly we can choose not to sin, but the only one who ever actually did so was Jesus, because he was perfect. If we had chosen not to sin, we could be perfect too. Which we can't, because only Jesus was perfect, but that's no excuse. If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned then the world would still be perfect and we wouldn't be surrounded by temptation, which we cannot resist because we're not perfect. Well, there'd still be that forbidden fruit I guess, but that's irrelevant because god said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOkkata Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 If free will is to choose to sin or not to sin, then there is no free will because one cannot choose not to sin. Don't use logic with me, young man! Supposedly we can choose not to sin, but the only one who ever actually did so was Jesus, because he was perfect. If we had chosen not to sin, we could be perfect too. Which we can't, because only Jesus was perfect, but that's no excuse. If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned then the world would still be perfect and we wouldn't be surrounded by temptation, which we cannot resist because we're not perfect. Well, there'd still be that forbidden fruit I guess, but that's irrelevant because god said so. Yeah, he did sin. He broke the Sabbath for example. Jesus was 'born' without original sin, but he didn't live his whole life without ever committing one. He certainly wasn't 'honoring his mother and father' when he took off to go to the temple or when he denied his mother when she came to see him. I never got the whole 'Jesus was perfect' assertion, even when I was a Christian. He clearly wasn't. He lost his temper, committed sins, he got depressed, he was afraid, and a was bit of a racist. All of those things are in the Bible. Remember when he called that Gentile woman a dog? It's a rather stupid assertion for Christians to make. I do have to admit I like hearing it so I can point out the places in the Bible that clearly show he wasn't. It could also be argued that he was Schizophrenic because he talked to himself. Why did Jesus need to pray? What about the whole 'trinity' thing? Aren't they all supposed to be the same guy? Is he having an argument with himself in the garden when he asks himself to not kill him? I can't justify worshiping a God who has to pray to himself to ask himself not to kill him and then has to be afraid because he won't listen to himself and then brutally murders himself so he can bring himself back to life. Maybe he should have gotten an iron chariot so he could outrun himself and escape? Jesus was anything but perfect and definitely not without sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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