dagnarus Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 A favorite of apologists and something which has been coming up recently is the matter of free will and salvation. I.E. the reason why God doesn't save everyone is because that would be go against man's free will and make us all robots blah blah blah. To this I say Romans 9:14-23 (New International Version) 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— Ephesians 1:4 (New International Version) 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love These verses seem to make it pretty clear that if you are saved it's because you were pre-selected for it, and if your gonna burn you were made with that purpose mind, no free-will required. Thus what basis do apologists have to suggest that the reason why God allows some to go to hell is because he wouldn't want to nullify their free will when the bible suggests the reason is that he created them so he could show his wrath and power to those whom he decided to have mercy upon. Furthermore what evidence from the bible is there to suggest that man has free-will and that God places value upon his having it? The bible doesn't seem to lay out any such principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 A favorite of apologists and something which has been coming up recently is the matter of free will and salvation. I.E. the reason why God doesn't save everyone is because that would be go against man's free will and make us all robots blah blah blah. To this I say Romans 9:14-23 (New International Version) 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— Ephesians 1:4 (New International Version) 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love These verses seem to make it pretty clear that if you are saved it's because you were pre-selected for it, and if your gonna burn you were made with that purpose mind, no free-will required. Thus what basis do apologists have to suggest that the reason why God allows some to go to hell is because he wouldn't want to nullify their free will when the bible suggests the reason is that he created them so he could show his wrath and power to those whom he decided to have mercy upon. Furthermore what evidence from the bible is there to suggest that man has free-will and that God places value upon his having it? The bible doesn't seem to lay out any such principle. I will have to do a more detailed study on this, but it seems like the concept of a 'free will' is not a topic directly covered in the bible. There are numerous, often conflicting, verses from which theologians construct doctrines about free will. While some verses appear to show that believers essentially have no free will, other verses tell us to "Choose this day whom you will server." One group of theologians will conclude, there is no free will. Others might conclude we do have free will. Still others delight to bask in the "dynamic tension" presented by scripture on the subject of free will. It all depends on which scriptures you choose (free will?) to concentrate on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Well considering God's OT behavior, and considering that he can't have anyone looking better than him, God has a PR problem. Therefore he must forbid you to exercise your free will to the point you look better than him. You can choose to be as good as God was bad, but no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naiya Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 You can also argue the free will thing the lazy way-- Why can't God give us all salvation AND free will at the same time? He's freaking GOD. He's not limited by ANYTHING. He could have very easily created a world where both of those things could be possible together. So, either he's not all-powerful (and also lying about being all-powerful), or he's an enormous cop-out BS artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 24, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 24, 2009 Some will say that if you have been selected to be "saved" you afterward have free will as to how well you obey God's will as one of his children. Regardless of how well or poorly you obey, you are always still "saved" since that is an immutable act of God. Were you not predetermined to accept God's gift of salvation, it still matters not in the least how you behave - it's eternal punishment for you! Then again, you may hear the altar call, be moved, and believe the story of Jesus atoning for all sin, and beg God for salvation. However, if you were not preordained to be saved, it won't take. The HS didn't move you to the cross, and you can't do it without him - at least according to some of the Scripture. On the other hand, ". . . whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish . . ." sure sounds like if you simply believe you are saved. Is the ability to believe fantastic nonsense the method God uses to make his "elect" electable? A rather poorly constructed handbook, I'd say. I don't bother with it anymore, and have forgotten most of what I learned in my wasted years of useless study of the damned thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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