Guest Davka Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I do not like the word "atheist" to describe myself. Not because it isn't accurate, but because it carries too many negative connotations for most people. Theists tend to equate "atheist" with "anti-God." The word atheist is often accompanied by words such as "communist" or "evil." It automatically raises people's hackles, which makes conversation much more difficult. So I'm thinking I'm going to start calling myself a non-theist. It carries the same meaning, without the unfortunate baggage. In fact, I think non-theist is a short lesson on true atheism in a nutshell. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 and what happens when non-theist becomes a bad word? The main issue with this is that it's a concession to the fear mongers. Instead of running away from the term because other people don't like it we should embrace it. We don't deserve the baggage, so it seems cowardly to shed the shell instead of speaking out and saying 'atheists are just as good as anyone else' I for one will not make concessions for other people's intolerance and prejudices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 30, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 30, 2009 If it's the right word and they misunderstand, tell them to look it up. That's their problem. Bending reality for the benefit of others is one reason I left the church. The term 'Christian' can also be misunderstood unless elaborated upon. Is it a Christian like the Pope? Martin Luther? Fred Phelps? Billy Graham? Atheist is a pretty simple term. We don't have sects and denominations. There is only one kind. We all simply lack the god belief so many people have. Oh, and we eat babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 How about "Free thinker?" That's evocative of independence, openness and critical thinking. All positive traits. It excludes most theism because a free-thinker cannot let their mind be bound by dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 If it's the right word and they misunderstand, tell them to look it up. That's their problem. Thing is, almost everyone misunderstands it. It seems like a waste of time and breath to explain the same thing over and over. I ran into this yesterday. Me: Well, I've become an atheist. Christian: Oh, so you changed your faith for another faith, huh? Me: No, I just don't have any beliefs one way or the other on the subject, blah blah blah... See what I mean? The term 'Christian' can also be misunderstood unless elaborated upon. Is it a Christian like the Pope? Martin Luther? Fred Phelps? Billy Graham? And for a long time I refused to identify myself as a Christian for this reason. I told people that I believed in Jesus instead. If they said "so you're a Christian?" I'd reply "no, I just believe in Jesus." Atheist is a pretty simple term. We don't have sects and denominations. There is only one kind. We all simply lack the god belief so many people have. Oh, and we eat babies. What??? I've been missing out on baby eating? Damn! Why doesn't anyone tell me these things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Thoughts? I know what you mean. When I speak to some old friends I have connected with again, I avoid "atheist" and use "agnostic" because they kind oif goes easier on them. Atheist is equated with "USA_hating_commies" in most Americans' mind (unfortunately). Non-theist is definitely a good one too. I've used it at occasions as well. Put it this way, I pick the label depending on situation, because I don't want to get into a long debate on what it means or not, and what position I'm actually taking. Labels are just shortcuts to simplified generalizations, and no one is really that simple in their views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 30, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 30, 2009 Me: Well, I've become an atheist. Christian: Oh, so you changed your faith for another faith, huh? Me: No, I just don't have any beliefs one way or the other on the subject, blah blah blah... You misunderstand the term 'atheist' - perhaps you should look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 What??? I've been missing out on baby eating? Damn! For political reasons we have gone to a ritualistic eating of cooked chicken eggs, and believe the transubstantiation of the eggs to real babies in a metaphysical meaning while eating them. It was a compromise to avoid all the media attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raul Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 "Non-religious"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highvoltage Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 The problem with the word atheist (besides the misunderstandings of what it actually means) is that it doesn't really mean much of anything. It says you don't believe in a god, but nothing about what you actually do believe in. Do you have any spiritual beliefs? Maybe use a word to describe yourself by what you do believe instead of what you don't. You can try "owning" the term atheist like some others here say, or you can find some other term that positively describes yourself. Like "pantheist" or "metaphysical naturalist" or maybe something more exotic. Or whatever it is you do believe. For instance, when asked I say I'm a philosophical taoist. Sure I'm an atheist, too, but by saying what I do believe instead of what I don't believe in, it's both more informative and less antagonizing. Sure you'll probably still have to explain to others what your new label means, but it'll be because others genuinely don't know what it means, and not because of previous negative baggage associated with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Some people have been recommending that we embrace the term "secular humanism" as a term with fewer negative connotations. Myself, though, I like being an atheist. Nice and clean, no doctrines, no fuss. Have you ever noticed that, in America, when we decide that something makes a negative impression, we just give it a longer name? Soon we'll be speaking a lanuage full of 20-syllable words, but we still won't have fixed any prejudices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 30, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 30, 2009 Or whatever it is you do believe. And that's the basic problem. Even nonreligious people can't seem to wrap their minds around the notion that it is possible for a person to simply have no supernatural beliefs or deities of some kind. The word 'atheist' is neither positive or negative - it's descriptive. The term 'atheist' doesn't and shouldn't imply alternative beliefs to fill an imagined void that is left by not believing in gods. It's simple. An atheist just lacks a belief in gods, and usually all other supernatural notions as well. But strictly speaking it only means no belief in any god. The word doesn't address the concept of possible alternative beliefs to not believing. It doesn't mean believing in some god, but just not 'yours". It doesn't mean that another spiritual path that leaves out a god has been chosen. I got tired of explaining how calling myself an atheist provides no information about what I think about philosophy, religions in general, or evolution. That's why I just tell the misinformed to look up the word and accept its meaning. Agnosticism, deism, etc. are entirely outside the reach of that simple term. How about instead of saying you're an atheist, just say, "I don't believe in any gods"? I'm afraid even that clear statement would be frequently met with disbelief and more prodding about what belief has replaced the god concept. Maybe it's just hopeless. I'm agnostic on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 The problem with the word atheist (besides the misunderstandings of what it actually means) is that it doesn't really mean much of anything. It says you don't believe in a god, but nothing about what you actually do believe in. This expresses my thoughts on the thing Highvoltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 31, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2009 It says you don't believe in a god, but nothing about what you actually do believe in. So what? Is everyone taking a survey? . . . it doesn't really mean much of anything. It means you don't believe in the existence of gods. It's not an explanatory label that is meant to disclose any other information. No single word can say everything about a person's view of things. If I said I don't believe in Santa Claus would you have to ask if I at least believed in the Tooth Fairy? Surely I must be an Easter Bunnyist, then. If I say I don't like cats, must I follow up with the statement, "but I DO like dogs?" It's nobody's business and I don't feel the need to explain my views beyond my plain response to the question "What are your views on God?" I'm an atheist, and that means I do not believe gods exist. Atheists are always expected to justify the fact that they don't believe in gods. Religionists often get offended when challenged or pressed for what exactly they believe and why. Especially why. They hold the unquestioned default position, after all. Some people believe in a god, others (atheists) don't. Pretty simple concept. I just find it offensive and irritating when people insist that since I don't believe their god exists I need to explain the new beliefs I must now have. God wasn't replaced with anything, and I don't know why they can't accept, or even understand, that concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yeah, that's a bit of a problem I used to have when I started passing myself off as a "humanist". To my Christian friends, they assumed that I had "replaced" my faith with *shockingly* faith in "mankind". oh, the scorn. Now I tell them that I am a philosophical person who appreciates rational ideas, and that I have rejected the "supernatural". And silly religious traditions and people who are so obsessed that they need mental help. This actually does make them pause a bit; it sometimes garnishes curiosity. Like being someone on the comfortable inside who sees someone who has "escaped" and is alright with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenhunter Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yeah, that's a bit of a problem I used to have when I started passing myself off as a "humanist". To my Christian friends, they assumed that I had "replaced" my faith with *shockingly* faith in "mankind". oh, the scorn. Now I tell them that I am a philosophical person who appreciates rational ideas, and that I have rejected the "supernatural". And silly religious traditions and people who are so obsessed that they need mental help. This actually does make them pause a bit; it sometimes garnishes curiosity. Like being someone on the comfortable inside who sees someone who has "escaped" and is alright with it. that's something i don't have to worry about my "christian friends" weren't really "christian" or "friends" anyway. well maybe one, but i personally think he needs a brainwashing...what the f**k am i sayin' he just needed psychiatric help with his former addictions, not a brainwash, oh well, he's not talking to me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Me: Well, I've become an atheist. Christian: Oh, so you changed your faith for another faith, huh? Why was this person asking you something so personal in the first place? If they do insist on doing so and you want to avoid the knee jerk response to the A word, you could just say you don't believe and get a knee jerk response to that or that you aren't religious and get a knee jerk response to that. I just prefer to live where people aren't deluded and don't have cocked knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them Sam I Am. ...and yes, I ate the fucking things for most of my life. What is the problem here? I'm with florduh. Do I now need to list the foods I have tried and also do not like? That I haven't tried and do not like or wish to try? That I do like? Or whatever other combinations there are? No! I do not like green eggs and ham. Kindly stick them in your ass Sam I Am. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I do not like the word "atheist" to describe myself. Not because it isn't accurate, but because it carries too many negative connotations for most people. Theists tend to equate "atheist" with "anti-God." I think you're in trouble. There's no word I can imagine that removes "god" and is seen as a positive word. Even some words that kind of include "god," such as "Universalism" and the like aren't well tolerated. To me "atheist" isn't a dirty word anymore. To me "ex-christian" isn't a dirty word anymore. To me "apostate" isn't a dirty word anymore. But they were when I was xian. However, to me, "Christian" is now tainted. But I doubt anyone is going to go out of their way to appease me or my feelings. I doubt they'll truly start to be "Christ like" to live up to the word either. Oddly enough I will live up to all my labels. I will remain "without a god." I will remain an "ex-xian" and "set apart." I won't have pithy sayings that explain how I still sin but I'm forgiven, something "jesus" never had to say or practice, but I will actually just be who I am. Why is this not enough? I think it is. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 To me "ex-christian" isn't a dirty word anymore. To me "apostate" isn't a dirty word anymore. But they were when I was xian. However, to me, "Christian" is now tainted. Exactly, why are we the ones put on the defensive. Why not "your an xian? So that means you are the kind of guy who just follows his heart and shuns reason, huh? Doesn't seem very prudent to me, but to each his own I guess." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highvoltage Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 It says you don't believe in a god, but nothing about what you actually do believe in. So what? Is everyone taking a survey? . . . it doesn't really mean much of anything. It means you don't believe in the existence of gods. It's not an explanatory label that is meant to disclose any other information. No single word can say everything about a person's view of things. If I said I don't believe in Santa Claus would you have to ask if I at least believed in the Tooth Fairy? Surely I must be an Easter Bunnyist, then. If I say I don't like cats, must I follow up with the statement, "but I DO like dogs?" It's nobody's business and I don't feel the need to explain my views beyond my plain response to the question "What are your views on God?" I'm an atheist, and that means I do not believe gods exist. Atheists are always expected to justify the fact that they don't believe in gods. Religionists often get offended when challenged or pressed for what exactly they believe and why. Especially why. They hold the unquestioned default position, after all. Some people believe in a god, others (atheists) don't. Pretty simple concept. I just find it offensive and irritating when people insist that since I don't believe their god exists I need to explain the new beliefs I must now have. God wasn't replaced with anything, and I don't know why they can't accept, or even understand, that concept. I'm not sure if you're directing those sentiments at me, or just venting your frustration in general. That's fine if you don't replace the xian belief with something else, or anything else, I never said you had to or ought to. Whatever floats your boat. Like you said, it's no one's business but your own. I was responding to the OP, who was looking for an alternative to the label "atheist", and offering my own solution. I never much liked the term atheist, either, for reasons that have nothing to do with my previous religious background or religionists reactions to it. It just always seemed like an empty word. So I do another thing. Something other people might want to consider for themselves so I threw it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 31, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2009 No, HV, not about you. I'm frustrated and venting because I get tired of the label 'atheist' constantly being challenged as if it's somehow incorrect or incomplete. No, it doesn't tell your life story, but it clearly indicates that you do not believe in gods. That's enough, IMHO. I'm a simple guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Davka if someone presses me then I say I’m a naturalist. In Causality We Trust. Everything is a dependent arising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 31, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2009 So what's my religious label? Well, I could say 'atheist' but nobody wants to hear that word. Apparently some people must think that means I might be a Buddhist or something. Others are puzzled by the utterance because they don't know where our congregation meets. Yet others don't like the label because it doesn't explain in detail all the things I DO believe in. So perhaps I should say that I am a Rational Empiricist. That should answer all their questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I've never seen the point of the argument "Atheism doesn't say what you ARE". So? WHY IS THAT considered a valid argument? I've asked that question before, haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. So I DON'T believe in god. I'll tell you what I DO believe in when we get to it. "I love this song! And I love it when amateurs sing the lyrics. But I HATE baseball cards!" -- Mayor Adam West, Family Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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