Am I Being Unreasonable?

[Guest Exxian]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to get a little advice. My brothers bachelor's party is tomorrow, and he decided to go white water rafting (something he just told me about) and camping for it. Now I've never really liked outdoor activities or camping. So this is really out of my element, and not something I would normally do. However, the larger issue is that my family doesn't know I'm an atheist. I'm not scared of dying and going to hell or anything like that. I'm more scared of possibly ending the only life I get by taking such an unnecessary risk. Christian's believe that they just go to a better place if they die. So they lose nothing and gain everything.

 

Now I'm not a shut in or anything like that. I understand that there is a certain amount of risk to living, and I've accepted that. I also know that the probability of something happening is low. I just don't want to intentionally put myself in an unnecessary situation where I have a greater risk of dying. I'm also nervous because they aren't bringing an experienced guide with them. The final issue is that I don't have health insurance right now so if I got injured I would be SOL. My brother said he would pay for any injury I received, but I don't really want to put anyone in that situation.

 

I feel really bad because it is my brother's bachelor party, but I don't really want to go and I can't tell him the truth. I'm thinking about just offering to take him and his friends bowling when they get back and treat them to all the beer they can drink. Am I being unreasonable or too cautious? Do you think taking them bowling and treating them to beer would be an acceptable compromise?

 

A quick response would be appreciated because I have to make a decision soon.

[Astreja]

Under the circumstances (no health insurance, no experienced guide, and most importantly, no interest on your part) I'd say 'no' to the trip. I'd put the emphasis on the fact that you simply don't like that kind of activity. The offer of after-rafting bowling and beer sounds like a great idea.

[RabbleRabble]

I come from a pretty different perspective so maybe my advice isn't of much use. To me it's precisely because of the short nature of our lives that we can't afford to live it timidly. Forgoing life experiences for a slight increase in safety is unthinkable to me.

 

Has anyone in the group gone rafting before? If so I really don't think you have anything to worry about. I say make sure your brother has an emergency plan and then go for it.

 

I understand that you wouldn't want to put your brother in the position to pay a medical bill, but please realize that to him your presence there is important enough for him to risk any medical expenses.

 

You are correct that the risk is low. The information I could find suggested that the injury rate was less than 1 per 1000 rafting days. That included minor injuries. Nothing worth worrying about.

 

Do you just think it won't be fun? If so.... suck it up!

[Jedah]

You will die eventually, and ultimately your life's purpose is decided by you. In the end it wont matter when you die.

 

 

I would just go.

 

But you are not me. If you really don't want to go, there is no shame.

[mwc]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to get a little advice. My brothers bachelor's party is tomorrow, and he decided to go white water rafting (something he just told me about) and camping for it. Now I've never really liked outdoor activities or camping. So this is really out of my element, and not something I would normally do.

 

I'm an atheist. [...] I'm more scared of possibly ending the only life I get by taking such an unnecessary risk. Christian's believe that they just go to a better place if they die. So they lose nothing and gain everything.

 

[...]I'm also nervous because they aren't bringing an experienced guide with them. [...]I don't have health insurance[...]

 

[...]I can't tell him the truth.

What I'm seeing is someone who doesn't want to do something and has come up with a list of bullshit reasons to convince someone, more than likely themselves than anyone else, that they are valid reasons for not going. They're not. (And xians aren't in any more of a hurry to make it to that "next life" than anyone else and what they believe has no bearing on what actually happens)

 

If you don't wish to go then tell your brother the truth. That very last thing you say you cannot do? See it there? DO THAT! You don't want to go. You are afraid to go. Or you don't like camping. Or you don't like his friends. Whatever. Don't go along and drag down the group and don't come up with bullshit excuses.

 

If your brother really knows you then he'll know you're not really into the camping thing and he'll understand ("Hey, you know I'm not into camping and all that shit so rather than just drag the party down I'm going to hang back here and we'll do something together when you guys get back. Maybe I'll take you all bowling and hit a strip club or something. Cool?") I think that's the way to go.

 

mwc

[Vixentrox]

Guess you don't ride/drive in cars much since people in get in car wrecks all the time.

[Loren]

I feel really bad because it is my brother's bachelor party, but I don't really want to go and I can't tell him the truth.

I think this is the real point, here. The way I see it, this event is your brother's day, not yours. Obviously, you want him to be happy and enjoy it as much as possible as long as you don't have to compromise yourself too far to bear. One of the things with family events and special occasions with Christian family, is that the longer the event is, the longer you're exposed and the greater the risk that someone will decide that it would be a nice time for everyone to sit around the fire and have a "Let's tell our personal Jesus story moment."

 

I'm thinking about just offering to take him and his friends bowling when they get back and treat them to all the beer they can drink. Am I being unreasonable or too cautious? Do you think taking them bowling and treating them to beer would be an acceptable compromise?

Perhaps it would. You know your brother. Would he be insulted by that?

 

Another compromise might be to go along in your own car (as long as we're not talking about driving many hours to get there), and just staying for a while to have fun, give love, maybe make an extra effort to help out with whatever food work needs to be done and then leave when the time is right.

[florduh]

What ever happened to REAL bachelor parties, with titties and beer?

 

You don't need to come up with excuses and actuarial tables to get out of the trip. Just say you hate all that nature and outdoor stuff and really don't want to go.

[TheYoYo]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to get a little advice. My brothers bachelor's party is tomorrow, and he decided to go white water rafting (something he just told me about) and camping for it. Now I've never really liked outdoor activities or camping. So this is really out of my element, and not something I would normally do. However, the larger issue is that my family doesn't know I'm an atheist. I'm not scared of dying and going to hell or anything like that. I'm more scared of possibly ending the only life I get by taking such an unnecessary risk. Christian's believe that they just go to a better place if they die. So they lose nothing and gain everything.

 

Now I'm not a shut in or anything like that. I understand that there is a certain amount of risk to living, and I've accepted that. I also know that the probability of something happening is low. I just don't want to intentionally put myself in an unnecessary situation where I have a greater risk of dying. I'm also nervous because they aren't bringing an experienced guide with them. The final issue is that I don't have health insurance right now so if I got injured I would be SOL. My brother said he would pay for any injury I received, but I don't really want to put anyone in that situation.

 

I feel really bad because it is my brother's bachelor party, but I don't really want to go and I can't tell him the truth. I'm thinking about just offering to take him and his friends bowling when they get back and treat them to all the beer they can drink. Am I being unreasonable or too cautious? Do you think taking them bowling and treating them to beer would be an acceptable compromise?

 

A quick response would be appreciated because I have to make a decision soon.

 

I know what you mean about this fear of ending the only life you have. I was pretty scared the first time I went climbing after losing faith. Before, I'd always reassured myself by saying it didn't matter if I fell.

 

From the little I've heard about health insurance and stuff in the states (we don't have to have insurance here in the UK), I wouldn't risk anything without it! It sounds really bad!

 

But I think you've got to accept that there are risks in everything, like someone just said about car accidents. I'm sure (aside from the insurance aspect!) this trip isn't a bigger risk than many other things. It will probably be fine.

 

Surely if you've never liked outdoors stuff, your brother will understand you not wanting to go? It's not like your atheism is the only reason for you not wanting to go.

[Kyle]

Strip clubs are much safer. You should mention this to your brother

[PaulQ]

Tell him you'll go, but only if everyone joins you beforehand to watch Deliverance.

[ShallowByThyGame]

The alternative to fearing death is realizing that you only have one life to enjoy. Whitewater rafting is really a blast, and very rarely to people get seriously injured. So long as you wear a life preserver your survival chances are probably higher than the drive there.

[Guest Davka]

I love white-water rafting! But only when it's done right. If you don't have a guide, then you walk the river first, scoping out the serious rapids so you know what to expect. If these guys are going with no guide and haven't walked the river, stay home. Tell them they can compete for a Darwin Award without you.

[ClaraOlive]

If you were about to do something truly dangerous and you hadn't had time to process thoughts and feelings about your death, what you're saying would be more understandable.

 

But it sounds more like you are having a problem dealing with small risks that should be common to living. If this is the only life you have, you don't want to waste it by sitting around afraid to do anything.

 

It's obviously important to your brother that you go, and this should be about him, not about you. So I think that as far as the camping part is concerned, you should suck it up. You can deal with camping for one night because your brother is getting married. I'm sure you'd want him to do the same for you- if your party is/was at a strip club, wouldn't you appreciate if he would suck it up and have a good time and be accommodating as possible for you, even if it initially makes him uncomfortable.

 

If the rafting scares you too much to deal with right now, maybe you could go on the trip but not do the rafting? At least you'd be around for the evening activities.

[PaulQ]

This conversation reminds me of the Brunnen G, from Lexx. Here's the Wikipedia about it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunnen_G

 

To expand on why this conversation reminds me of the Brunnen G, the population was divided. The older people in the population didn't see the point in taking any unnecessary risk in order to live forever (for the sakes of living), while the young saw risk as part of life; and recognized an eternal life free of risk to be a life not worth living.

 

Definitely a worthwhile series I recommend to all. This whole story of the Brunnen G doesn't really come out until later on in the series in a stage play, IIRC. Off-the-wall and quirky, but I love the series. My favourite quote was:

 

I... have killed mothers with their babies... I have killed great philosophers, and proud young warriors... I have killed... the evil! And the good! The intelligent! The weak... and the beautiful. But it's been a while since I slayed a whole room full of petty bureaucrats!

[Guest Davka]

I think there's some misunderstanding about the level of risk involved. I don't know how intense the rapids involved are, but white-water generally involves at least class 3 and 4 rapids. Class 4 rapids can kill you pretty easily if you don't know what you're doing. Wearing a life vest won't stop your head from getting slammed into rocks. And class 5 rapids are for the experienced only. I don't know any self-respecting guides that would take green rafters on a class 5 run.

 

With the right precautions, rafting is pretty safe. So is rappelling, which is also a blast. But going over a cliff or down a rushing river is not something to do lightly.

[Guest Exxian]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to get a little advice. My brothers bachelor's party is tomorrow, and he decided to go white water rafting (something he just told me about) and camping for it. Now I've never really liked outdoor activities or camping. So this is really out of my element, and not something I would normally do.

 

I'm an atheist. [...] I'm more scared of possibly ending the only life I get by taking such an unnecessary risk. Christian's believe that they just go to a better place if they die. So they lose nothing and gain everything.

 

[...]I'm also nervous because they aren't bringing an experienced guide with them. [...]I don't have health insurance[...]

 

[...]I can't tell him the truth.

What I'm seeing is someone who doesn't want to do something and has come up with a list of bullshit reasons to convince someone, more than likely themselves than anyone else, that they are valid reasons for not going. They're not. (And xians aren't in any more of a hurry to make it to that "next life" than anyone else and what they believe has no bearing on what actually happens)

 

If you don't wish to go then tell your brother the truth. That very last thing you say you cannot do? See it there? DO THAT! You don't want to go. You are afraid to go. Or you don't like camping. Or you don't like his friends. Whatever. Don't go along and drag down the group and don't come up with bullshit excuses.

 

If your brother really knows you then he'll know you're not really into the camping thing and he'll understand ("Hey, you know I'm not into camping and all that shit so rather than just drag the party down I'm going to hang back here and we'll do something together when you guys get back. Maybe I'll take you all bowling and hit a strip club or something. Cool?") I think that's the way to go.

 

mwc

 

As much as I hate to admit it, I think you're right. Thanks for calling me out on it. I really don't like rafting, sky diving, bungie jumping, rock climbing or any activity like that because they do terrify me. I agree that it's a completely irrational fear, but most fears are. When I really thought about it, I've always avoided these types of things even when I was a Christian. Being cautious is probably just part of my personality. As a Christian, however, I was always able pray and that helped me get over some my fears and participate in activities I wouldn't do otherwise. I just need to find some non-religious way to achieve the same result.

 

I guess the only reason I was attaching it to atheism is because I only de-converted about 3 months ago, and I've been thinking a lot about this type of stuff. One thing I'm especially worried about right now is dying and having my family find all the science and anti-religion books that I'm reading right now. I know it's a stupid thing to worry about because I would be dead and it wouldn't make any difference to me. However, I'm really stressing out about it because I understand the type of emotional trauma I would put my family through. Even though nothing has happened I'm making myself feel guilty about it, which is completely absurd.

 

I've accepted that I'm going to die. It could be tomorrow or it could be 55-60 years from now. As much as I would like to believe in an afterlife, I know it's nothing more than wishful thinking. I completely agree with Carl Sagan when he said that "it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." If I couldn't do this then I wouldn't be an atheist.

 

After reading some of these posts, I was planning on going rafting, but I decided not to primarily because I don't have insurance. I'm really trying to be careful right now because I will be getting health insurance again when college starts next month. So until then I'm trying to limit my driving, and avoid any potentially risky activities. I talked to my brother and he understood, but when he gets back I'll be a little more honest with him. Thanks for the advice everyone.

[MatG]

fuck that, stay home.

[mwc]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think you're right. Thanks for calling me out on it. I really don't like rafting, sky diving, bungie jumping, rock climbing or any activity like that because they do terrify me. I agree that it's a completely irrational fear, but most fears are. When I really thought about it, I've always avoided these types of things even when I was a Christian. Being cautious is probably just part of my personality. As a Christian, however, I was always able pray and that helped me get over some my fears and participate in activities I wouldn't do otherwise. I just need to find some non-religious way to achieve the same result.

No problem. It's one of the few things I do.

 

Don't go through life doing things you're afraid to do and don't go through life being afraid to do things. You'll figure it out. It usually goes a bit better when you don't have a bunch of added pressure and expectations heaped on.

 

I guess the only reason I was attaching it to atheism is because I only de-converted about 3 months ago, and I've been thinking a lot about this type of stuff. One thing I'm especially worried about right now is dying and having my family find all the science and anti-religion books that I'm reading right now. I know it's a stupid thing to worry about because I would be dead and it wouldn't make any difference to me. However, I'm really stressing out about it because I understand the type of emotional trauma I would put my family through. Even though nothing has happened I'm making myself feel guilty about it, which is completely absurd.

Don't worry about crap you can't control. When I die everyone gets to sort through porn in some form (I have old mags from way back...women are women and the once the pics are taken they never age ). It used to bother me when I was younger since I figured they think I was a perv. Once I realized I was one then I didn't care anymore. Considering how much porn is sold I don't think I'm alone even though every news story would make you think it was isolated cases ("And, get this, the police found pornography in the house. I can't believe it. He must be the only person in the entire state to possess such items. How he supported a multi-billion dollar industry on his own we'll never know.").

 

After reading some of these posts, I was planning on going rafting, but I decided not to primarily because I don't have insurance. I'm really trying to be careful right now because I will be getting health insurance again when college starts next month. So until then I'm trying to limit my driving, and avoid any potentially risky activities. I talked to my brother and he understood, but when he gets back I'll be a little more honest with him. Thanks for the advice everyone.

I'm glad you're going to talk with your brother. But I'm wondering if you are becoming obsessed by this death thing? Do you have any OCD's? We have a guy, Ameen, who's quite familiar with them and he may be able to help you out.

 

Anyhow, have fun at whatever you wind up doing for the second party.

 

mwc

[mwc]

What ever happened to REAL bachelor parties, with titties and beer?

I know. I had two strippers at mine. I don't really recall them because I was plastered (I rarely drink). In turn I arranged for a couple for my brother. We had to drag my friend to a strip club after he hooked up with a fundie (oddly enough I thought she was a fundie prude even when I was xian) and I skipped my BiL's (xian) since they were going to the beach to eat hot dogs (but they have girls in bikinis there...yawn). Hell, I made sure that my wife was taken to some male strip club for her party. I mean c'mon people. Loosen up.

 

mwc

[Guest Exxian]

 

I'm glad you're going to talk with your brother. But I'm wondering if you are becoming obsessed by this death thing? Do you have any OCD's? We have a guy, Ameen, who's quite familiar with them and he may be able to help you out.

mwc

 

Maybe. I don't know. I've never been officially diagnosed. I think part of the problem is that my father died in a sudden accident when I was 13. So I was forced to experience the death of a close family member at an already difficult age. I went to some bull shit Christian grief counseling where they basically told me that father was still alive in heaven, which is basically the same thing I was told by all my friends and family. So I don't think I ever received adaquete counseling for such a traumatic event. This was actually one of the toughest things about de-converting because I essentially had to deal with my fathers death twice.

 

My school offers free short term counseling for students, and I plan to schedule some appointments when school starts again so I can try talking through some of these things. The psychologist that talks to the students wrote an article in the school newspaper last year about how the holidays can be tough for some students because college can sometimes change the beliefs they grew up with. He then encouraged these students to come talk to him. So I'm pretty sure he's not religious, but if he is then I'll just figure something else out.