I Got The "i,m Sad For You..." And "if You Truly Had..."

[RaisedPB]

I had an recent email exchange with a very old friend who is still a professing Christian. She is a recovering alcoholic going through a divorce (I guess Jesus didn't help prevent all that...) so I thought I'd share the struggle I'm going through right now. Well of course, first assumed I was angry at god or the church. I explained that I was not angry, and this was not an emotional based decision at all, but quite the opposite.

 

She then asked if I still held the "core beliefs". I said I didn't know what she meant, but my guess was probably not. I said I no longer believed the Genesis stories, especially the creation account, were factual historical accounts and I didn't believe the vast majority of humanity over all of history was going to be tortured for eternity, just to start.

 

So she then said the most basic core belief was did I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and did I trust in his work on the cross to forgive my sins.

 

Now, she has known me since I was 8. We went to church and chrisitian camps together and talked about christian stuff in our teen years. She knows damn well I did at one point. I told her I had, of course done that at some point in the past, but didn't really see the relevance any more, since I no longer believed in original sin or hell.

 

That's when I got:

"I'm kinda sad that you think you've "done that" in the past. If you truly had, you wouldn't be questioning some of the foundational teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the old testament. But, to each his own.

 

The only thing that truly sends us to hell is rejecting the "call" or "prompting" of the Holy

Spirit who invites us into an intimate relationship with God. When one rejects Christ, He will someday reject him as well."

 

Does she not think that that is exactly what I've heard all my life, and what I no longer see any proof of? ARRGGGHHHH!!!!!

 

The brainwashing is so bloody frustrating!

[decafaholic]

 

Now, she has known me since I was 8. We went to church and chrisitian camps together and talked about christian stuff in our teen years. She knows damn well I did at one point. I told her I had, of course done that at some point in the past, but didn't really see the relevance any more, since I no longer believed in original sin or hell.

 

That's when I got:

"I'm kinda sad that you think you've "done that" in the past. If you truly had, you wouldn't be questioning some of the foundational teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the old testament. But, to each his own.

 

 

That is so insulting! AHHHHH!! I hate it when Christians do that! Any kind of reasoning with someone like that is useless.

[RaisedPB]

 

That is so insulting! AHHHHH!! I hate it when Christians do that! Any kind of reasoning with someone like that is useless.

 

That's always one of the fallbacks, right. If you questioned you must not have really been saved in the first place. WHATEVER!

 

More like, I guess the brainwashing never fully took and my frontal lobe finally broke through.

[CelticWhisper]

One thing I've always wondered about that, and I suspect it's very likely that I wonder because I'm not really an ex-Christian as I never was Christian to begin with, is why people are so aggravated by it if they're no longer believers.

 

I get that it's infuriating to be told not just what to think, but told what you think as if they know what's going on in your head better than you do, but I think my own inclination would be to rub it in a little bit to distress them. Kinda like "Yeah, you're right, I never believed but I sure made you think I did, and you fell for it." Depending on who I'm dealing with I may go so far as "I still don't believe, and there's nothing you can do about it, and there's nothing your god can do about it either." I know it's not always easy to be so callous with friends or former friends, but...I guess I can't quite grasp the source of the frustration when by all rights, it shouldn't really matter anymore.

[Guest Davka]

Next time I encounter this crap I think I'll reply "And I'm really sorry that you think you're saved, too. That's so sad."

[RaisedPB]

One thing I've always wondered about that, and I suspect it's very likely that I wonder because I'm not really an ex-Christian as I never was Christian to begin with, is why people are so aggravated by it if they're no longer believers.

 

I get that it's infuriating to be told not just what to think, but told what you think as if they know what's going on in your head better than you do, but I think my own inclination would be to rub it in a little bit to distress them. Kinda like "Yeah, you're right, I never believed but I sure made you think I did, and you fell for it." Depending on who I'm dealing with I may go so far as "I still don't believe, and there's nothing you can do about it, and there's nothing your god can do about it either." I know it's not always easy to be so callous with friends or former friends, but...I guess I can't quite grasp the source of the frustration when by all rights, it shouldn't really matter anymore.

 

I think you're asking why I'm irritated by it. If not, then please disregard. I guess I was irritated because this was and old friend and at the beginning of the exchange I thought we were two friends having a real discussion about difficult issues we were dealing with. But instead of an original response, I got the traditional christian defense of faith. And the fact that she asked a question she knew the answer to and then gave me a condesending response that I must not have really meant it.

 

If it had been a stranger witnessing to me in the mall, I wouldn't have given two shits what they thought or said.

 

You are also probably right (and lucky) that having not been in the fundamentalist evangelical world (in my case for many years), it may be hard to understand the emotions one experiences as they try to exit.

 

Cheers,

Steve

[CelticWhisper]

One thing I've always wondered about that, and I suspect it's very likely that I wonder because I'm not really an ex-Christian as I never was Christian to begin with, is why people are so aggravated by it if they're no longer believers.

 

I get that it's infuriating to be told not just what to think, but told what you think as if they know what's going on in your head better than you do, but I think my own inclination would be to rub it in a little bit to distress them. Kinda like "Yeah, you're right, I never believed but I sure made you think I did, and you fell for it." Depending on who I'm dealing with I may go so far as "I still don't believe, and there's nothing you can do about it, and there's nothing your god can do about it either." I know it's not always easy to be so callous with friends or former friends, but...I guess I can't quite grasp the source of the frustration when by all rights, it shouldn't really matter anymore.

 

I think you're asking why I'm irritated by it. If not, then please disregard. I guess I was irritated because this was and old friend and at the beginning of the exchange I thought we were two friends having a real discussion about difficult issues we were dealing with. But instead of an original response, I got the traditional christian defense of faith. And the fact that she asked a question she knew the answer to and then gave me a condesending response that I must not have really meant it.

 

If it had been a stranger witnessing to me in the mall, I wouldn't have given two shits what they thought or said.

 

You are also probably right (and lucky) that having not been in the fundamentalist evangelical world (in my case for many years), it may be hard to understand the emotions one experiences as they try to exit.

 

Cheers,

Steve

 

That makes sense. It's basically the perceived dynamic of the relationship either being jerked out from under you or at least utterly failing to engender respect on the part of your old friend - that is, the respect that would lead a person to give you a thoughtful answer as opposed to a canned "pre-recorded" response.

 

I must say I'm glad I haven't had friends pull that kind of crap with me. My heart goes out to ya, Steve. I hope the damage done isn't too severe, or if it is, that you're able to salvage the friendship (assuming you want that) or at least make a clean break if you can't.

[Seeker630]

I was never an evangelical nutter---I was strict Catholic. I've never had anyone say anything like that to me, except one other retiree from the same outfit I retired from. He sent out some bullshit pro-Christian political email, and I responded that I wasn't interested since I am an atheist. His reply was--"Hey, you had your chance"------My return was: "Hey, Mohamed was the only true prophet of Allah, do you believe in him?-----You had your chance".

 

Never heard another word out of the asshole.

[chefranden]

"I'm kinda sad that you think you've "done that" in the past. If you truly had, you wouldn't be questioning some of the foundational teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the old testament. But, to each his own.

 

You once believed that too didn't you? If it were she that had left and you that stayed, how would you be thinking of her act? The brainwashed do not know they are brainwashed. If they knew they were brainwashed, they wouldn't be.

 

In addition it is a defense. She's hoping she's saved and you've put a ding in that hope. If you can be unsaved, she could be too. Therefore you were never saved.

[PaulQ]

I've always maintained that I found it morally reprehensible to accept that someone would have died for the bad things I, or my ancestors, had done. Whether I believe a guy named Jesus was nailed to the cross becomes irrelevant when I proudly proclaim that I demand to be judged based on all the things I have done; both good and bad, and if the bad things I have done warrant an eternity in a place called hell, then so be it.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Next time I encounter this crap I think I'll reply "And I'm really sorry that you think you're saved, too. That's so sad."

 

Perfect!

[CelticWhisper]

So I just read this. And ho...ly...SHIT. I get it now, I definitely get it. It's a callous, hand-waved invalidation of all the hard work and headaches that you endured to get where you were before you deconverted. Yeah, I think I'd go a little ballistic too.

[RaisedPB]

So I just read this. And ho...ly...SHIT. I get it now, I definitely get it. It's a callous, hand-waved invalidation of all the hard work and headaches that you endured to get where you were before you deconverted. Yeah, I think I'd go a little ballistic too.

 

 

Whoa! I'm glad I didn't experience anything that heavy handed - not yet anyway. That is why I am struggling with the idea of telling my parents, even though I am an adult. They would not write me off or "disown" me, but I know very well the arrogance and unyielding stubborness of absolute faith. I do know some acquaintences that would have that exact reaction to being told a former "brother" is now an "unbeliever".

 

When you are convinced you have found ABSOLUTE truth, how can there be any compromise? How can there be an acceptance of any other viewpoint? There can't be, because they believe your very eternal destiny depends on it.

 

And I apologize if one of my earlier replies came across as harsh. I didn't mean it to be, but I re-read it later, and realized it could have been read that way.

 

 

Peace,

Steve

[★ Citsonga ★]

So I just read this.

 

Thanks for the link. While it seems that the ex-pastor did go a little overboard in comparing his cousin to the 9/11 terrorists (but, of course, I haven't seen their prior discussions), overall he made some very good points. Too bad his cousin can't see how brainwashed he is. But then, neither could I when I was a believer.

[Guest Davka]

If you can be unsaved, she could be too. Therefore you were never saved.

 

Well said. You've put your finger squarely on the heart of the matter, Chef.

[Astreja]

Next time I encounter this crap I think I'll reply "And I'm really sorry that you think you're saved, too. That's so sad."

 

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

 

Já, turn it around on her. People tend to use the weaponry that they think would work on them.

[VacuumFlux]

I got that sort of response to every emotional problem all through (Christian) high school. Seemed like the answer to everything was "Jesus loves you! You're happy now, right?". And for a bit, I would be. Because I wanted to make them happy, and I wanted to be happy. Then it would wear off and I'd realized that nothing had changed and none of my questions had been answered.

 

Senior year of high school, I had a earth shattering experience. I came in one Monday after a frustrating weekend. A friend asked me how I was doing. I said "Blah. Had a bad weekend". He said "Yeah, so did I" and did nothing to try to cheer me up. That was the first time anyone (at least friends and in high school) treated my negative emotions as legitimate.

 

I have since met some Christians who act like normal, empathetic human beings. But belief still has a way to short circuit that even in people who truly care about you.

[greenhunter]

I got that sort of response to every emotional problem all through (Christian) high school. Seemed like the answer to everything was "Jesus loves you! You're happy now, right?". And for a bit, I would be. Because I wanted to make them happy, and I wanted to be happy. Then it would wear off and I'd realized that nothing had changed and none of my questions had been answered.

 

Senior year of high school, I had a earth shattering experience. I came in one Monday after a frustrating weekend. A friend asked me how I was doing. I said "Blah. Had a bad weekend". He said "Yeah, so did I" and did nothing to try to cheer me up. That was the first time anyone (at least friends and in high school) treated my negative emotions as legitimate.

 

I have since met some Christians who act like normal, empathetic human beings. But belief still has a way to short circuit that even in people who truly care about you.

 

i know just tell them one wrong thing like you voted for this democrat and they go off like it's the end of the world. but then they apologize, it's like they're bi-polar os something.

[Guest Speedbump]

I know it's fun and cathartic to bash the stupid things christians say and do. But here's something I thought of while contemplating my own clever retorts.

I'm not an addict, but know enough about AA to know that one of the things they require you to do is "acknowlege a higher power." Your friend might need religion right now to help deal with her addiction. It's bullshit, I agree, but anything to keep her going at this point. I watched a friends dad die from alcohol, it's really nasty if they go until the body gives out.

Another reason She might want to go after you is because if she can find someone more screwed up than her, she'll feel better about herself. Not the worst of things considering, even if it's not true.

I loath the condescending christian attitude, and want to intellectualy pound on them, but in this case, because of the addiction, maybe a little tolerance would be in order.

[PaulQ]

Don't be so sure, Speedbump. By allowing an alcoholic to believe they are powerless to a higher power, they could believe they are powerless to stop drinking and continue drinking more because of that belief.

 

South Park did a good job of illustrating this issue with the episode, "Bloody Mary":

 

http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/south-park/season-9/south-park-914-bloody-mary/#clip10466

 

Wikipedia article:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_(South_Park)

[RaisedPB]

I know it's fun and cathartic to bash the stupid things christians say and do. But here's something I thought of while contemplating my own clever retorts.

I'm not an addict, but know enough about AA to know that one of the things they require you to do is "acknowlege a higher power." Your friend might need religion right now to help deal with her addiction. It's bullshit, I agree, but anything to keep her going at this point. I watched a friends dad die from alcohol, it's really nasty if they go until the body gives out.

Another reason She might want to go after you is because if she can find someone more screwed up than her, she'll feel better about herself. Not the worst of things considering, even if it's not true.

I loath the condescending christian attitude, and want to intellectualy pound on them, but in this case, because of the addiction, maybe a little tolerance would be in order.

 

I agree. I ranted in here to you guys, but didn't say anything to her. I just let it go. I know she is in a fragile place right now, and I certainly wouldn't want to be even partly responsible for a slip back to drinking. I don't agree with her that god or jesus helped her get her life together. Even her own words when she shared with me should tell her that. Things like "I finally had enough", "Getting my ass to meetings", "I didn't want to live that way any more". She did it. She found the power in herself. I don't know why people can't see that and claim the strength they have within themselves.

 

Actually, I do know. It's years of christianity telling you that you are a sinner and your deeds are "filthy rags" before god unless you accept jesus' death on the cross for you. You are wicked, powerless to help yourself, or please god on your own. Jeez, what a mind job. It's a wonder any of us escape with our sanity. ETA - I'm not sure I did.

[RaisedPB]

Don't be so sure, Speedbump. By allowing an alcoholic to believe they are powerless to a higher power, they could believe they are powerless to stop drinking and continue drinking more because of that belief.

 

South Park did a good job of illustrating this issue with the episode, "Bloody Mary":

 

http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/south-park/season-9/south-park-914-bloody-mary/#clip10466

 

Wikipedia article:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_(South_Park)

 

I love that episode. Very funny. Those guys do go after the sacred cows, don't they.

[chefranden]

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment