Guest Perus32 Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Hey everyone, its been a while since i've posted on here. But would like to start a conversation with you about sex and sexuality As a good Christian i've been saving myself for marriage and believed that any sexual thought/desire/action outside of marriage is wrong. I learned to perfectly control my thoughts and urges and never struggled with masturbation, porn, looking at women and lusting, etc. Now since I've deconverted i have to retrain my brain to realize that some of these things are okay, however some still feel wrong. Just wanted to ask you for your experience and list some things that you think are still wrong (P.S. i'm not an atheist, and would still consider that there is a God, but I don't believe in any form of religion). At this point I firmly believe that sex with your girlfriend is a totally acceptable, but one night stands with random people are 'wrong'. Looking at porn - 'wrong', but a softer form of erotica is okay. Anyone else can relate to that? Any funny/interesting experiences with sexuality you can share? I guess mine would be going skinny dipping with some guys and girls which i wouldn't do before...i consider that as a progress for me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 What's so wrong with porn? I indulge in the occasional hentai (free mind you). I used to be one of those Christians that flagellated themselves just thinking about masturbation, but I have found that just going for it (masturbation at least) helps alleviate those ingrained "morals". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 7, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2009 list some things that you think are still wrong The only thing that is "wrong" is to cause harm. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex. It's demonized by religion (and some parents) for control purposes. If the church can make you fear punishment, or make you feel guilty, they got you by the balls. What better thing to demonize than a natural and perfectly normal biological urge like sex? That makes EVERYBODY guilty and in need of the church's help! If they just said that eating worms was a sin, nobody would worry or care. Hardly anybody has the urge to eat worms, but everybody sure likes sex. Now, go get some. Sex, that is, not worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 list some things that you think are still wrong The only thing that is "wrong" is to cause harm. My thoughts exactly. This goes for all areas of life, including sexuality. Doing selfish stuff that harms others, whether physically, emotionally, or materially, is wrong. Having sex for the sake of sex is fine, as long as both people are up-front about it and there's no deception going on. Wrong = harm. An ye harm none, do what thou wilt. (Them wiccans actually had a good idea there, even if they do sacrifice Christian babies every full moon. Come to think of it, maybe that's not so bad either.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird28 Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I am still very influence by the church when it comes to such things as sex outside of marriage, but I don't necessarily believe it's wrong anymore. I've been brainwashed all these years and it's gonna be hard to get rid of that. Basically, I wish I had a sexual partner, but at the same time I would feel really guilty for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 ...Just wanted to ask you for your experience and list some things that you think are still wrong... In my book, as long as all participants are adult, in full possession of their mental powers, and agree to what's going on, there's nothing wrong. As soon as those conditions don't all apply anymore, the "wrong" starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I've half quit (still working on it) even thinking in terms of right and wrong. I happen to be a highly empathetic person and get distressed at the thought that I might have made someone else unhappy. I've realized that many people have that, to some degree. We are a social species. So what am I left with? I want other people to be happy and fulfilled. I want to be self-consistent and strong. I want the human race to be nice to itself, to care for our earth, and to thrive for uncountable generations after I die. That seems a sufficiently moral place to start. So what does that mean about sex? Sex is moral when everyone involved enjoys it, has no guilt or reservations (at the time or after), when no significant others are lied to, and when precautions are taken to avoid STDs. Porn's fine as long as you keep it private so that no one who doesn't want to see it is subjected to it. Masturbation is a great way to release stress and sexual tension, and calms you down so you don't act like a jerk to other people while you're frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qec Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 ...Just wanted to ask you for your experience and list some things that you think are still wrong... In my book, as long as all participants are adult, in full possession of their mental powers, and agree to what's going on, there's nothing wrong. As soon as those conditions don't all apply anymore, the "wrong" starts. Man, then there is a shitload of guys getting a light buzz off three beers while their female friends get drunk off three, and committing seriously immoral actions once the two score together on a casual night out with the friends. I'm not talking boyfriend/girlfriend here either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 What florduh & Thurisaz said: "wrong" is when harm starts. So things like rape, sexual shaming, incest, child porn, manipulation, dishonesty - those sorts of things are "wrong", because they damage people in one way or another. (Note that things like inflicting pain in a BDSM setting may or may not be "wrong", depending on what boundaries the people involved have agreed upon beforehand.) I find it useful these days to distinguish between stuff I find outright morally wrong (i.e., the stuff that really does hurt people) vs. stuff that's morally OK but I'm just personally not into it, so wouldn't do it. The goal in defining things that way is to avoid judgment of others while being able to determine my own sexual compass, if you will. Because just because I don't like something doesn't mean that whatever it is is morally wrong. Examples: casual, uncommitted sex - wrong? No, not really. I just don't go for it, so I don't do it. Anal sex - wrong? No, I just don't like it, so I don't do it. Porn - wrong? No, not really, I just don't have a taste for certain kinds, so I don't indulge in them. And so on. Hope that helps a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest E-3 Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I don't know if you've engaged in any sexual activities since your deconversion, but if not I think your feelings towards sex may change considerably once you experience it first hand. Once you feed the beast (responsibly and in due time for you, of course) and see all of the positive effects it can have on your psyche, it's tough to really demonize it the way the church wants you to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 As a good Christian i've been saving myself for marriage and believed that any sexual thought/desire/action outside of marriage is wrong. I learned to perfectly control my thoughts and urges and never struggled with masturbation, porn, looking at women and lusting, etc. Now since I've deconverted i have to retrain my brain to realize that some of these things are okay, however some still feel wrong. I had trouble at first when I deconverted because I bought that "sex is evil" line of b.s. It takes time and alot of thought to change a mind that has been controlled by guilt and shame stemming from christian beliefs about sexuality. Those feelings associated with all things sexual are the hardest to change. In my experiences traveling and learning about other cultures' views, I realized how much christian views on sex are erroneous, suppressive, and masochistic. It seems that christians in the USA are the most affected by them. When I accepted the fact that life is made possible only through sex, and that we are sexual animals, then I began to let go of those masochistic beliefs. Just wanted to ask you for your experience and list some things that you think are still wrong (P.S. i'm not an atheist, and would still consider that there is a God, but I don't believe in any form of religion). Even if you believe in god, why would god be against the very thing "he" created? The bottom line for you is self-responsibility and, like others stated, "do no harm". When we consider the consequences of our actions, then we can decide what would be ok and wrong. For me to be specific would not help you much. You need to figure it out from there. Since you seem to be a responsible guy; you'll be alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Man, then there is a shitload of guys getting a light buzz off three beers while their female friends get drunk off three, and committing seriously immoral actions once the two score together on a casual night out with the friends. I'm not talking boyfriend/girlfriend here either. Hey, I didn't claim there is not a gray area in that definition... and you may well have hit it dead center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ephymeris Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I've been deconverted for quite a while now. My definition of what's right and wrong kind of lines up with the other opinions here. As long as no one will be harmed or forced, I don't think any of it's wrong. Sex outside of marriage, kinky fetishes, LBGT, polyamory, roleplaying, S&M, whatever is fine with me. I have my preferences but my preferences have not been sculpted out of a feeling of this is "right" and that's "wrong." It's very freeing to cast off religion's bondage. I'm at a point where I can have what I want sexually and I have no guilt over it. It's one of my own beliefs that in this life we should have total freedom up until it infringes on the rights and freedoms of others, then there must be comprimise. An ye harm none, do what thou wilt Yup, truer words were never spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 It's one of my own beliefs that in this life we should have total freedom up until it infringes on the rights and freedoms of others, then there must be comprimise. An ye harm none, do what thou wilt Yup, truer words were never spoken. I don't have much to add to the discussion at hand, but wanted to affirm that I agree wholeheartedly with this consensus. As long as what one does doesn't harm anyone, whose business is it what that person does, and what's the big deal? Religion sets up false moral boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I am the same when it comes to being liberal about what gets people off, except for bestiality. If you want to marry multiple people of all sexes and practice all kinds of bondage, more power to you, as long as no one is being forced to do anything and are over the legal age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungrydingo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I had trouble letting go of the morals Christianity taught at first too. It took me awhile to become "ok" with pre-marital sex and homosexuality. It does take some time, I doubt many people let go of beliefs that were reinforced over an entire lifetime instantaneously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 While I became an atheist years ago, my recent philosophical growth has been in sexuality. Unlocking the chains and boxes of christian sexuality was much harder than the chains of the divine, perhaps because it was more emotional for me, but I've climbed off my high horse and have been able to see people (including myself) for what they really are instead of weak or depraved individuals. Some concepts I've come to believe are a more accurate and helpful representation of human sexuality: There is no clear straight/bi/gay lines. People are just either attracted to something or they are not. The desire for monogamy has more to do with insecurity than morality. We should teach our children the truth as soon as they are able to ask it. Sex is a symbiotic experience for both people, and there is no shame in sexual gratification. Abstinence not only is horrible at birth control, but significant others tend to argue over money, chores, and sex. To ignore exploring 1/3(or all) of that before marriage is just asking for divorce. Showing skin is a personal choice, the human body is beautiful and if it makes you uncomfortable that is your problem. What is wrong? Well rape certainly is, and perhaps seduction that involves blatant lies ('we'll run off together baby' then gone in the morning). But sex between two people who care about each other is beautiful no matter what the situation, just like dancing in a way. For some years I'd led a sheltered sexual life, tending to judge harshly in my jealously and bitterness, but now I am checking myself when those emotions come up because they are not fair and realistic. When I lost my virginity one thing that struck me was how quickly I had abandoned my supposed morality for what came naturally, and it's time we stopped feeling guilty for doing what we were really created to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Some concepts I've come to believe are a more accurate and helpful representation of human sexuality: There is no clear straight/bi/gay lines. People are just either attracted to something or they are not. Agreed. The desire for monogamy has more to do with insecurity than morality. I think there's another motive: love. Sexual intimacy is generally far more emotional for women than for men, and the desire to restrict that level of intimacy to a single individual can be an emotional one as well. I honestly don't think humans are designed for polygamy or promiscuity. I've tried both, and after 22 years of monogomous marriage I've come to the conclusion that monogamy is the healthiest state, psychologically. At least, for me it is. We should teach our children the truth as soon as they are able to ask it. About sex? Or about everything? I kept some of my teenaged exploits (joyriding, massive drug and alcohol ingestion) on the down-low until my kids were in their late teens. I wanted to make sure they had learned some valuable lessons first. Sex is a symbiotic experience for both people, and there is no shame in sexual gratification. Agreed. Abstinence not only is horrible at birth control, but significant others tend to argue over money, chores, and sex. To ignore exploring 1/3(or all) of that before marriage is just asking for divorce. Not sure how I feel about this one. Showing skin is a personal choice, the human body is beautiful and if it makes you uncomfortable that is your problem. As the father of three teenaged daughters, I must insist that young women need to be taught how incredibly visual young men's libidos are. You might be wearing that belly-button top and hiphuggers because you think it's a cute outfit, but it's giving Johnny a case of blue balls. Is that really what you intended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksandstuff Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I like what Davka wrote about monogamy. It lines up with my personal experience, sex outside of marriage before I was a Christian, which caused a lot of emotional pain and troubles with the attachment and intimacy that accompanied it. I'm not saying everyone would experience the same difficulties I did, but maybe just painting the issue as "right" or "wrong" is not adequate to define the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The desire for monogamy has more to do with insecurity than morality. I think there's another motive: love. Sexual intimacy is generally far more emotional for women than for men, and the desire to restrict that level of intimacy to a single individual can be an emotional one as well. I honestly don't think humans are designed for polygamy or promiscuity. I've tried both, and after 22 years of monogomous marriage I've come to the conclusion that monogamy is the healthiest state, psychologically. At least, for me it is. There's a fourth motive as well: Safety. Monogamy reduces the risk of STDs. My remaining monogamous has more to do with these last two motives (love and safety) than the first two mentioned (insecurity and morality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbleRabble Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The desire for monogamy has more to do with insecurity than morality. I think there's another motive: love. Sexual intimacy is generally far more emotional for women than for men, and the desire to restrict that level of intimacy to a single individual can be an emotional one as well. I honestly don't think humans are designed for polygamy or promiscuity. I've tried both, and after 22 years of monogomous marriage I've come to the conclusion that monogamy is the healthiest state, psychologically. At least, for me it is. I love being in a monogamous relationship for a variety of reasons, but I don't think it's the only way. I disagree that love automatically leads to monogamy. Just like love is possible without sex (platonic love,) sex is also possible without love. Yes, even for women! Although romantic love involves a desire to monopolize for many/most people, I don't think that's necessarily true for ALL. There are many people in polyamorous relationships who seem to make it work. Knowledge about myself leads me to think that I could not be one of them, but I'm not going to assume that others should be like me. As long as all parties involved have a clear understanding between each other and show respect to their partners I see nothing wrong. There's a fourth motive as well: Safety. Monogamy reduces the risk of STDs. My remaining monogamous has more to do with these last two motives (love and safety) than the first two mentioned (insecurity and morality). There are many good reasons to promote monogamous relationships over promiscuity. I would say that promiscuity is unwise, but certainly not immoral. Lot's of things fall under that category. A series of one night stands (with consenting partners)- Unwise A sexual encounter (where you fail to mention your herpes)- Immoral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 There's a fourth motive as well: Safety. Monogamy reduces the risk of STDs. My remaining monogamous has more to do with these last two motives (love and safety) than the first two mentioned (insecurity and morality). There are many good reasons to promote monogamous relationships over promiscuity. I would say that promiscuity is unwise, but certainly not immoral. Lot's of things fall under that category. A series of one night stands (with consenting partners)- Unwise A sexual encounter (where you fail to mention your herpes)- Immoral 100% agreement here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Love is not an emotion but a biological drive that comes from an area of the brain below the cognitive level. According to Dr.s Tennov and Fisher humans evolved with three basic drives deep within our reptilian brain. The sex drive, romantic love and attachment. Love is simply a cocktail of hormones flooding the brain, dopamine, oxytocin, and vessopressin. Love feels like it's not part of our consciousness because it's not. Dopamine is the hormone that meth and cocaine stimulate it's production and especially meth will ultimately kill dopamine receptors. Dopamine is why love makes us feel "high" and out of control but it eventually wears out or the brain gets used to it. If you want to feel "in love" with a long term partner, do something new and exciting together, that stimulates dopamine production. Oxytocin and Vessopressin are the hormones responsible for pair bonding to another human. They are known as the "cuddle" hormones. However, these drives do not always work together. It is possible to feel sexual for one person, while you feel romantic love for another, and attachment for yet another person. Monogamy is rare in mammals. In an exhaustive survey, Devra G. Kleiman of the National Zoological Park in Washington, D.C., found that only about 3 percent of mammals are monogamous and humans are not one of them. I would also like to say that as Dr. Fisher so eloquently states, "You can know every note in Beethoven's Ninth, but you can still listen to it and enjoy the pleasure." Personally, I enjoy exploring the depth and quality of a relationship with one person. I do not have the energy or time to have the type of quality relationship that I know I thrive in with multiple partners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Monogamy also limits the genetic pool, so many animals resort to having multiple partners even if they maintain a pair bond attachment to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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