An Athiest Not At Peace, Part 2 - Doomsday

[AmIReallyThatBad]

The "Doomsday Clock" currently reads 5 minutes to midnight. The threat of nuclear war happening someday is not near-nonexistent, though I wouldn't say it's bound to happen either. Everyone is preaching Doomsday nowadays. The Christians are, The Muslims are, so many religions are. And each religion believes that they are right and the rest are wrong. And, some people have a view that they all are right and that this is even more proof of an immediate Doomsday scenario. One man even has a blog dedicated to it and a well-reviewed book on Amazon about it -

 

debunking-god.blogspot.com/ - [He's not "debunking" the idea of God, but rather most peoples' perception of God. He also says that his nuclear war is imminent and that people need to listen to ALL of the prophets of religions.]

 

www.ofpromisesandpreviews.com/ - [The author's official website.]

 

http://www.amazon.com/Promises-Previews-Urgent-Messages-Millennium/dp/0595175201/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250112010&sr=1-1 - [The Product Description is pretty scary.]

 

Scary stuff, for sure!! I was just thinking about a book written by a Pastor of a Church I used to attend when I was a Christian. He wrote it about Revelation and how it can and must be understood. This was one of the first things I read after becoming a Christian and I was absolutely startled at home seamlessly so many things that are happening today fit the scriptures. Most alarming were the Trumpets of Daniel. The author described how closely the first two troubles fit the first and second world war. He admitted that the third trumpet was too cryptic to link with a current event, but that the 4th Trumpet had been fulfilled through the Chernobyl disaster [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_the_Chernobyl_disaster] and that all of the stats matched up. He linked the 5th Trumpet with Saddam Hussein, because Saddam literally means "The Destroyer," which is what the 5th Trumpet is about [i could get the book out and go into detail about this, but I really don't want to have to touch the thing unless I have to]. And after that, the 6th Trumpet talks of 2/3 (or maybe 1/3, can't remember] of humanity being destroyed; it sounds eerily like nuclear war. And according to Revelation, that's the next Trumpet to sound, and all of the ones before it have sounded in the last 100 years.

 

Of course, there's also the 2012 gang that talk about shifting poles and asteroids and environmental changes, etc., etc. Add it all up and you really start to believe that SOMETHING is going on and that the Scriptures of whichever religion sound plausible.

 

Man, I no doubt will be accused of being a "believer" in disguise again, but I'm honestly not. I'm an atheist and very much wish to stay one. I HATE all of this impending Doomsday stuff, but it scares the crap out of me because of how real it sounds and because of how many people believe it and have dedicated much of their lives to studying it, spreading the word and "educating" others about their discoveries. These people's minds will not be changed, in their minds, they are absolutely sure. And that scares me, because I'm not sure at all and sometimes I feel like I have no idea what to believe.

 

I don't want an impending Doomsday. I don't want there to be a Hell where people go for eternity to suffer. I don't want there to be a God who does so little help and guide his creations that he supposedly "loves" and puts them in so much inescapable peril and feeds their fears. But I can't seem to let these possibilities go. There just seems to be so much evidence that tells me that it could be real.

 

And that's part 2 of my struggles. Please honestly and thoughtfully take a look at all of what I've said, look into the links I've provided and check out the verses I mentioned, and give me your interpretation and opinion. I know that most of you can look at all of this with a clear head and without freaking out. Of course, I know that there is going to be a "bias" towards all of this and that everyone is going to go into looking at all of this with that bias. But, the authors of all of this stuff have their own bias and I've already heard it. So, now I want to hear the other side and I desperately want to believe it (the atheism side that isn't going to make me mentally and physically ill).

 

Thanks for reading and I appreciate all of the replies that I get. I promise that I am being 100% honest here and that I am really a troubled atheist and that I am looking for some help in putting all of this in perspective.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

The world is always ending for someone. Think of any natural disaster. Katrina for instance. Living (or dying) through that would give you the feeling of doomsday. Same with 9/11, tsunamis, you don't need to look far to find examples of people's worlds ending.

 

2012 is just as ridiculous as Y2K was, even more so since there was a grain of physical possibility in Y2K though it was blown way way way out of proportion. Think back to the Great Disappointment of 1844. There are so many examples of people having great belief that the world is coming to an end only for a new day to dawn and the earth to keep on spinning.

 

If a natural disaster occurs that destroys the world - an asteroid, Yellowstone exploding, the sun exploding w/e - it will not be predicted by the religious sects. They do not deal with natural disasters but unnatural ones. An asteroid or the like have no more probability of hitting us in 2012 than any other time. No point in living in fear of things you cannot possibly predict or prevent.

 

As far as Revelations is concerned... where to start. The book was written during a time of great upheaval, especially for the Jews because their temple and records were destroyed. That is the world that was being destroyed, that is the level of detestation they felt. Plus the style of language and symbolism used was very specific to the culture it was written in and for, interpreting it based on modern perceptions takes its meaning out of context. Its the easiest thing in the world to predict that 'something bad is going to happen somewhere' because that is life on this planet. That is where prophets get their kicks. Its easy to attribute actual events to things prophesied of doom in the past. People literally make religious out of science fiction books (I'm looking at you Scientology) its the same basic principle. Same thing with numerology, astrology, on and on, expressing things that will happen, vague traits that anyone can identify with, people will believe in it.

 

The Doomsday clock has been at 5 minutes for many years. And I give it about as much thought as I give a facebook quiz, mildly entertaining but not something to base my life off of.

 

Thing is, the earth will be destroyed some day. That day could theoretically happen at any time for any number of reasons. Some people want it to happen, they are the ones to fear. Apocalyptic Islamics and Christians that actually want to bring about Armageddon are the ones to really fear and fight against. I can pretty much guarantee you that the world ending in 2012 would be the fault of religious human beings who believe it must, and would still in no way prove their positions or their prophecies. It is also silly to me that Christians have hopped on the 2012 bandwagon when it originally came from a Mayan Calendar and thus has nothing to do with their ideology anyway. Lets just mishmash all our species' archaic beliefs into one steamy pile of fearmongering.

 

Just like you will die one day, the earth will be annihilated by the Sun some billions of years from now. We want to think that in our species' timeline for existence that we live somewhere in the middle, because living at the end is a truly depressing thought. I know what you are going through (I cried for hours after the movie Knowing because I felt the depiction of the world ending was disturbingly realistic but not the rosy aliens saving children part). In the end, you can only worry about the things we have some control over: keeping the religious nuts from destroying us all. If God exists and chooses to destroy the world, all I can do is live honestly up till that point. If a random natural event occurs without warning, well, I'll be dead before I know to be afraid won't I? But I am letting you know, there is no logical reason to be afraid of the year 2012 anymore than there is reason to fear tomorrow or the next day. I feel confident that we will fade into the textbooks of history for generations to come. I do admit that death tolls from various things will likely rise at some point since our population expansion cannot just continue unabated. But no reason to suppose that everyone will die or think we can predict the date or the manner.

 

Try not to over expose yourself to this stuff (stay away from movies like 2012 for instance if they upset you - I know I will). There is no point in living in fear.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

The world is always ending for someone. Think of any natural disaster. Katrina for instance. Living (or dying) through that would give you the feeling of doomsday. Same with 9/11, tsunamis, you don't need to look far to find examples of people's worlds ending.

 

2012 is just as ridiculous as Y2K was, even more so since there was a grain of physical possibility in Y2K though it was blown way way way out of proportion. Think back to the Great Disappointment of 1844. There are so many examples of people having great belief that the world is coming to an end only for a new day to dawn and the earth to keep on spinning.

 

If a natural disaster occurs that destroys the world - an asteroid, Yellowstone exploding, the sun exploding w/e - it will not be predicted by the religious sects. They do not deal with natural disasters but unnatural ones. An asteroid or the like have no more probability of hitting us in 2012 than any other time. No point in living in fear of things you cannot possibly predict or prevent.

 

As far as Revelations is concerned... where to start. The book was written during a time of great upheaval, especially for the Jews because their temple and records were destroyed. That is the world that was being destroyed, that is the level of detestation they felt. Plus the style of language and symbolism used was very specific to the culture it was written in and for, interpreting it based on modern perceptions takes its meaning out of context. Its the easiest thing in the world to predict that 'something bad is going to happen somewhere' because that is life on this planet. That is where prophets get their kicks. Its easy to attribute actual events to things prophesied of doom in the past. People literally make religious out of science fiction books (I'm looking at you Scientology) its the same basic principle. Same thing with numerology, astrology, on and on, expressing things that will happen, vague traits that anyone can identify with, people will believe in it.

 

The Doomsday clock has been at 5 minutes for many years. And I give it about as much thought as I give a facebook quiz, mildly entertaining but not something to base my life off of.

 

Thing is, the earth will be destroyed some day. That day could theoretically happen at any time for any number of reasons. Some people want it to happen, they are the ones to fear. Apocalyptic Islamics and Christians that actually want to bring about Armageddon are the ones to really fear and fight against. I can pretty much guarantee you that the world ending in 2012 would be the fault of religious human beings who believe it must, and would still in no way prove their positions or their prophecies. It is also silly to me that Christians have hopped on the 2012 bandwagon when it originally came from a Mayan Calendar and thus has nothing to do with their ideology anyway. Lets just mishmash all our species' archaic beliefs into one steamy pile of fearmongering.

 

Just like you will die one day, the earth will be annihilated by the Sun some billions of years from now. We want to think that in our species' timeline for existence that we live somewhere in the middle, because living at the end is a truly depressing thought. I know what you are going through (I cried for hours after the movie Knowing because I felt the depiction of the world ending was disturbingly realistic but not the rosy aliens saving children part). In the end, you can only worry about the things we have some control over: keeping the religious nuts from destroying us all. If God exists and chooses to destroy the world, all I can do is live honestly up till that point. If a random natural event occurs without warning, well, I'll be dead before I know to be afraid won't I? But I am letting you know, there is no logical reason to be afraid of the year 2012 anymore than there is reason to fear tomorrow or the next day. I feel confident that we will fade into the textbooks of history for generations to come. I do admit that death tolls from various things will likely rise at some point since our population expansion cannot just continue unabated. But no reason to suppose that everyone will die or think we can predict the date or the manner.

 

Try not to over expose yourself to this stuff (stay away from movies like 2012 for instance if they upset you - I know I will). There is no point in living in fear.

 

I actually went to the film "The Knowing" with two friends of mine, one being a Christian. Despite many bad reviews, I went to the film based on Roger Ebert's 4 Star review; I generally trust this man's positive reviews that go against the grain. Anyways, we all very much liked the film, despite having mixed feelings about the ending. My Christian friend said that one scene involving people burning (not going to give away any spoilers) especially stayed with him because it reminded him of what Hell will be like for unbelievers.

 

Anyways, the 2012 stuff doesn't bother me as much as the Revelation prophecies and all of the religious Doomsday prophecies; I find the man who wrote the book linked to above's conclusions especially troubling, as that would make everything even more confusing, uncertain and chaotic.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

Oh yeah, and I don't seek stuff like this out. I either found it when I was a Christian or I accidentally stumble upon it. For example, I was reading a review of "The Watchmen" and the author mentioned The Doomsday Clock, so I looked it up. From there, I accidentally stumbled upon the "debunking-god" blog, assuming that it was a website like this one. Boy was I wrong!!! Did anyone look at those links?

[oddbird1963]

AmIReally,

 

One reason you keep running across doomsday scenarios is that they sell books, encourage web hits and have a sensationalist quality that keeps people talking. They are designed to rattle your cage.

 

One thing I try to do to cope with all the doomsday messages and my own private brand of doomsday brought about by a tendency to worry is to focus on getting the most from today. It doesn't matter if the world as we know it will end in 2012 or 2022. What matters is whether or not I have shown love to the people I care about today. What matters is whether I've done my work today in a way that makes me feel proud. I especially like to find one of my friend's with little children, overindulge the little tykes and return them to their parents spoiled rotten! That makes for a good day.

 

In short, live for today and when the world ends - - - probably in a way totally unpredicted by anyone, if you haven't died of old age already, you really won't care. You will be full of life and without fear.

 

OB '63

[florduh]

Doomsday is upon us. Again.

 

DOOMSDAY!

[chefranden]

Hal Lindsey promised the end of the world in 1981 in his Late Great Planet Earth. I noticed that he got that wrong even though he lined up world events perfectly with Revelations and such. You can find people writing about the end of the world near as far back as people have been writing. When 2012 passes there will be some more world end prophesies. You just mark this old farts words. I lived through many ends of the world. None of them amounted to a hill of beans.

 

You have to ask yourself, why do Christians get so unglued over the end of the world? I thought that was supposed to be a good thing.

 

I just got back from my nephew's funeral in which everybody was talking about how Josh was in a better place. It was all I could do not to suggest that we all take the koolaid and join him. Josh is in a better place followed by much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Here is a prophesy that's true. You are going to die. That will be the end of the world as far as you can tell. If you spend much time worrying about it you won't get the little bit of living you are entitled to. Josh was 28 when he died, but he was smart enough to live for 28 years if you know what I mean.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

Yeah, I understand. I appreciate everyone's responses. Is there anyone else out there that would like to chime in? I still don't think I'm at peace with this and I'd like to talk about it more.

[florduh]

Did you see my doomsday link?

 

How is your favorite doomsday scenario different from all the other failed ones in that long list?

[RabbleRabble]

AmIReallyThatBad,

 

1. Do your best to think of all the natural disasters and large political events that have happened throughout the world in the past 20 years.

 

2. Now realize that you have probably left some out so try to keep that in mind.

 

3. Now try to imagine how many natural disasters and large political events have happened in the thousands of years since those prophecies were written.

 

4. Now what do you think the chances are that one of the events that has happened in all that time might fit with the prophecy when someone is deliberately looking at it within that context.

 

5. Please keep in mind that these prophecies are not very specific. They can (and have) been interpreted to apply to any number of historical events.

 

 

Lastly, FOR THE LOVE OF CATBERT begin working on your critical thinking skills. Until you do, you will continue to fall prey to every kind of non-proof that falls into your lap. How can you tell fact from fiction when you accept "it just fits together so well" as evidence? So before you ask for our opinions, before you look at someone web page for answers, even before you start reading about the joys and reasons for being an atheist...... get thyself to a library and find a book on critical thinking and scientific reasoning.

[Antlerman]

Doomsday is upon us. Again.

 

DOOMSDAY!

Great link florduh! Thanks. I bookmarked that one. I was thinking it would be great to have some compiled source of all these 'predictions' throughout history, demonstrating that this is a socio/psychological thing, and lo and behold, someone on the Internet had one!

 

I'm going to dig in a little bit later on into what it is in societies that drive this sort of apocalyptic thinking. Off the top of my head, I believe it's something people do when they feel pressures against them. It's a way of empowering themselves in their particular group by imagining the destruction of the entire world that they feel trapped within, that they feel powerless against. That's my bet.

 

All the rest of how they piece together a 'convincing argument' to support this myth, is just pulled from the standard bag of logic fallacies people use to convince themselves of the validity of whatever irrational belief appeals to them. All one has to do is look at how each of those in this list constructed their 'proofs', and then layer that on to this latest popular fad of the '2012' predictors, and you should see identical techniques.

 

One such fallacy I could guarantee is going on is this one: Confirmation Bias. The OP should definitely read that link. It should give him a lot to ponder in evaluating the 'evidence' for these sort of predictions.

[florduh]

It's a way of empowering themselves in their particular group by imagining the destruction of the entire world that they feel trapped within, that they feel powerless against. That's my bet.

 

That's my bet too.

[Taphophilia]

December 21, 2012 is the end of the Mayan calender. While, yes, their calender was an exemplary use of astronomy and mathematics, this was a culture that believed the sun was carried across the sky everyday by a giant panther. They also practiced human sacrifice.

 

I can think of two possible reasons why their calender ends on that particular date.

 

1. It's the end of the world.

 

or

 

2. It was so far out into their future, that after an exhaustive undertaking, their astronomers just happened to end their calender there.

[Guest Davka]

I just checked my Coca-Cola calendar. It ends on January 31, 2010. I'm stocking up on canned goods. The end is nigh.

 

Seriously - I can remember a number of doomsday dates in the last 20 years alone. There was a book called "88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988." It sold well. Then the world was ending in '89, and then in '92 with the "mother of all battles," and then in '93 with the Rabin/Arafat peace deal, and again in '99, and of course Y2K, and the 9/11 attack was the harbinger of the apocalypse . . .

 

There is money to be made in scaring people and predicting the end. These doomsday predictors will always be with us, lo even unto the End of Days.

[hereticzero]

I guess prophecy would be more spookier if it had not been written after the fact. The OT was not written until the Jews returned from Babylon. Josephus claimed the Hebrew religion began at that time as there had been no Jew prior to the return from Babylon. That makes the OT a work of fiction used to only bolster the Jewish religion. No Jews existed prior to the return from Babylon and then the written works are created after the fact to support the religion. It was to give the Hebrew a religious identity. So if the OT and prophecies were written after the fact, what makes the prophecy of Daniel worth anything more than a yawn?

[AmIReallyThatBad]

get thyself to a library and find a book on critical thinking and scientific reasoning.

 

Any books that you'd recommend?

[RabbleRabble]

get thyself to a library and find a book on critical thinking and scientific reasoning.

 

Any books that you'd recommend?

 

I think I mentioned it in my other thread, but Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" would probably be a good introduction. It's well written, interesting, not at all hard to understand, and provides a handy little baloney detection toolkit that you may find useful.

 

I hope others will have suggestions for you as well.

[nightflight]

I have the same fears. However, I no longer fear Anti-christs, raptures, etc. I fear a slow slide into chaos due to economic downturns, environmental problems, political miscalculation. More mundane, yet more real.

 

But even if things were hunky-dory you will still die anyway so what the fuck.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Thanks for reading and I appreciate all of the replies that I get. I promise that I am being 100% honest here and that I am really a troubled atheist and that I am looking for some help in putting all of this in perspective.

 

Also there is the whole Pope issue. The prophecy from St.Malachy. Supposedly, we only have one more Pope before the end. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12473a.htm#malachy

[Rev R]

I can think of two possible reasons why their calender ends on that particular date.

 

1. It's the end of the world.

 

or

 

2. It was so far out into their future, that after an exhaustive undertaking, their astronomers just happened to end their calender there.

 

or

3. The calendar doesn't actually end but starts over.

[Saviourmachine]

Jeez, believing in a doomsday, why not just believe in a god instead? Pretty useless if you want to live a happy life. Why would you like to live your life in a continuous fear of something that might happen some day? Pretty stupid...

[oddbird1963]

get thyself to a library and find a book on critical thinking and scientific reasoning.

 

Any books that you'd recommend?

 

 

The Art of Deception: An Introduction to Critical Thinking might be a good read for critical thinking.

 

Seriously - I can remember a number of doomsday dates in the last 20 years alone. There was a book called "88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988." It sold well. Then the world was ending in '89, and then in '92 with the "mother of all battles," and then in '93 with the Rabin/Arafat peace deal, and again in '99, and of course Y2K, and the 9/11 attack was the harbinger of the apocalypse

 

HA HA! I actually met Edgar Whisenhunt, the guy who wrote the "88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988." I was a security guard in a bank in Little Rock, AR at the time. He pulls up in a little red Chevy Chevette, goes in and hands his little booklet out to all the tellers. It was actually late 1988, after the week of the predicted return of Jesus. He was already hawking the book of 89 reasons why jesus would return in 1989. I believe he was a former NASA engineer, completely obsessed and half nutty. He went on and on and on, talking 90 to nothing about Rosh Hashana, how we can't know the day and the hour of Christ's return, but we can know the week of his return.

 

He was a flash in the pan prophecy enthusiast who convinced a lot of people and made himself and his enthusiasts look like a fool. At least he didn't start an offshoot religion from that deal.

[chefranden]

get thyself to a library and find a book on critical thinking and scientific reasoning.

 

Any books that you'd recommend?

 

How to Think About Weird Things

[RationalOkie]

I guess prophecy would be more spookier if it had not been written after the fact. The OT was not written until the Jews returned from Babylon. Josephus claimed the Hebrew religion began at that time as there had been no Jew prior to the return from Babylon. That makes the OT a work of fiction used to only bolster the Jewish religion. No Jews existed prior to the return from Babylon and then the written works are created after the fact to support the religion. It was to give the Hebrew a religious identity. So if the OT and prophecies were written after the fact, what makes the prophecy of Daniel worth anything more than a yawn?

 

The OT is fiction? Wanted to make sure you got your prof's on the above. Well stated. I love all of the wacko's like Jack Van Impe http://www.jvim.com/ notice, when you go to his site, that the "Donations" are at the top of the links and "Prayer" is at the bottom of the links. Sounds about right. I'm absolutely amazed that people still buy into this snake oil. What a racket.

[AmIReallyThatBad]

 

Thanks for reading and I appreciate all of the replies that I get. I promise that I am being 100% honest here and that I am really a troubled atheist and that I am looking for some help in putting all of this in perspective.

 

Also there is the whole Pope issue. The prophecy from St.Malachy. Supposedly, we only have one more Pope before the end. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12473a.htm#malachy

 

Anyone able to put all of this in perspective? The St. Malachy prophecies are eerie, too.

 

Apparently, Pope John Paul II, the 110th Pope, was designated "De labore Solis" by St. Malachy's prophecy. The day he was born, and now, the day of his funeral, a solar eclipse.

 

http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

 

http://www.alphee.com/Phenomena/eclipse_1900_1925.htm

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/04/05/solar.eclipse.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

 

Can anyone explain this?