HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 First, I would like to thank all of those who supported me in my thread "I Have Been Forced Out of the Closet". I appreciated your feedback very much. For those of you who haven't read that thread, he is a quick recap: My mom found out that I now longer go to church. She gave me the whole "How could you do this to Jesus", "You are in danger of hell" talk. When she found out that my boyfriend and I were looking at getting an apartment in September, she exploded again. As of the end of the thread, I had yet to talk to me dad. I expected him to be more understanding and less fire and brimstone because he is sort of an agnostic. I did talk to him a few days later. He pretty much did the emotional black mail thing that someone mentioned in my previous thread. He told me that I should call my mom and tell her sorry for hurting her. He told me that they would all be terribly disappointed with me if we got an apartment. Then he started to go on about how there is something special about man-woman marriage and that people shouldn't be living together before marriage because it is just wrong. He concluded by telling me that I could choose to do what I wanted, but reminded me of how much I would disappoint everyone if we chose to live together. I just sort of let him talk and said "Yes, okay" to everything he said. Fast forward to this Monday. My boyfriend applies for yet another job (he has recently graduated and is looking for work). We have been holding back on signing a lease until he gets guaranteed employment - I am making money and working, but not enough to cover the full cost of a 2 bedroom place near the university where I will be teaching. Anyway, on Tuesday he gets a call for an interview. Yesterday morning he goes for the interview. He talks with the HR person several times yesterday afternoon. It is not final, but it looks like he may have the job. There is an apartment building we had been looking at for a while. So, after my boyfriend gets off the phone with the HR lady for the last time, we decide to take a quick check for apartments. He logs onto a local ad site, and there is a graduate student giving up her 2 bedroom in the building we want to live. The ad was posted only 34 mins before we found it. So I emailed her right away and we went to see the place at 7pm last night. It is exactly what we want PLUS: - We would be getting a discount on the rent due to the circumstances in which she has to leave (not bad circumstances, just a long story). - She also said she would be willing to eat all or part of the damage deposit. - It is smack dab between where I will work and where my bf will work (both within easy walking distance) - It is downtown and on all major bus routes. - We would be able to move in a week and a half before the lease actually starts. As you can see this is all perfect. This morning I call my dad again. I told him about how I just got an in course scholarship. He is all happy about that. Then I mention this apartment to him. Let's just say he wasn't happy. He started doing the whole guilt trip thing again. He was all sad and told me that me and my bf were not doing the right the with our relationship and that we are going about everything backwards. He said, "This isn't good...this isn't good." Then he tried to tell me that when I hung up from him last time that I left him with the impression that we weren't going to live together. I did no such thing. I simply acknowledged his feelings about the matter by saying "I understand". That's all I said. So that is where I am now. My bf is waiting on the HR person who should call any minute now. Pending the job, we will probably sign for the apartment tonight. The girl said she would hold it for us until at least this evening. I just feel like I can't talk to home now. My parents are both ashamed of me it seems. But look at all of the positive things I have done in my life: - I got full scholarship to university as well as in course scholarships. I have a GPA between A and A+. - I have won two federal undergraduate research awards. - I have a bright career in software engineering ahead of me. - I have many great friends. - I had three good jobs this summer. - I financially independent at age 22 (save my parent's dental and eye plan which I am about to fall off of in a couple of months anyway) - I drink responsibly and I don't do drugs. etc..... I know my parents are still proud of these things I have achieved, yet they are still disappointed in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 13, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted August 13, 2009 Congratulations! It sounds like things are going well for you at last! BTW, eventually you will no longer seek parental approval. It just stops being a concern for most people. Parents adjust (in most cases!). Sometimes they have a problem letting go of control, but deep down they want their children to become independent, responsible adults who think for themselves. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Its your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 BTW, eventually you will no longer seek parental approval. It just stops being a concern for most people. I hope this is true. I never thought of it before, but I really am hung up on parental approval, aren't I? Doing something they so strongly disprove of makes me feel so guilty. I think they are trying to scare me out of it all, too. It's just so tiring to live in fear...especially since I have anxiety and OCD-type problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Your father is stuck in the 1950s. You need to defy him here. It will be good for both of you. The alternative is to constantly be calling and saying 'is this okay daddy?'. that will drive you insane, especially if you have anxiety problems. Generation Y couples live together all the time. There is no data that says anything about it hurting people. I think it actually is a wise decision to live with the person you are going to marry beforehand so you see how they live when they are at their worst instead of being surprised after the wedding. It honestly 'weird' for me to hear about people who don't live together first, even most gen-y Christians. It's true they may freak out and, i dunno, not talk to you. But most likely they will get over it. You can't let people bully you in this life, and tear you down. If you want to be with this guy in your heart than follow your heart. The song 'Numb' by Linkin Park is one I liked to listen to when angry at my parents for criticizing my choices: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQCE2iK6tG4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbleRabble Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Congratulations! Your life is going well and someday your parents will realize they no longer need to direct it. I don't know if someone has already suggested it, but have you thought about writing them a letter? Not an email either, but something real that they can hold in their hands physically and have in a drawer somewhere as a reminder. Sometimes the things we can't say well in person or over the phone are much easier to express in writing. Something that boils down to, "Your values are no longer my values. As an adult I will be living my life according to my own standards. If you continue trying to make me feel guilty about that every time we speak then we will probably not be speaking much. I hope that will not be the case because I love you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I know my mom especially is great at guilt trips - she's turned it into an art form. It took moving across the country and several years before I finally don't care as much about her approval. And despite what she gives lip service to, my mom is NOT the type who wants her kids to grow up and become responsible adults. I finally married out of my house, and my mom was still throwing a hissy fit at 25 years old because I was abandoning her. Thank goodness we lived a couple hours away at the time. Even now she is clingy via the telephone and wants to move out by me - thankfully she's the type of person who's terrified of change, so I doubt that'll ever happen unless I have a complete mental failure and agree to let her live with me until she finds her own place (which I never will because she never would!). Anyways, just letting you know you're not alone in the whole parental guilt trip thing. And you will probably not need their approval someday, but it may take some time. I think guys are sometimes better able to get over that than us girls - not always the case, but in general. Also, even though it won't change your course, it may help your parents if you take the time to realize that some of their views may not even be religion based - they grew up in a time when you simply didn't live with your BF before marriage, unless you were a sl*t (or that was the view anyways). So some of their take on things is probably founded in a time culture base as well, and very well ingrained in their views. Of course it's backed up by their religion, but that may not be even the basis for your father's reaction. You can't do much other than to tell him that you understand and respect his views and experience, but in this case you are choosing a different path, then go do what you need to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Your father is stuck in the 1950s. Haha! That is what my bf always says! I don't think it helps that he grew up in the boonies in a very socially conservative town. He may not have a religion, but it is like the culture still sticks to him. You need to defy him here. It will be good for both of you. The alternative is to constantly be calling and saying 'is this okay daddy?'. that will drive you insane, especially if you have anxiety problems. I am going to defy him. Funny thing, though. I HAVEN'T been calling him asking for approval. In fact, I have been avoiding telling him this sort of stuff because of the way he responds. But he told me that he was all hurt that my bf's mother knows more about my relationship than him. He said he wants me to start telling him stuff and talking stuff over. Now, I am certainly not going to tell mention everything to him, but I specifically choose to tell him about the apartment because he kindly suggested that I do such things. I could have just as easily gone and signed the lease and told him after the fact. Almost did that once at a bargain house a few months ago we didn't end up getting. Generation Y couples live together all the time. There is no data that says anything about it hurting people. I think it actually is a wise decision to live with the person you are going to marry beforehand so you see how they live when they are at their worst instead of being surprised after the wedding. My PhD mentor/friend has been telling me this. He thinks my parents are backwards and batshit. Thing is, all I can remember from my Christian days is stuff about how it will ruin your relationship...make you more likely to divorce, cause a less exciting sex life later on... In fact, I am so twisted when it comes to sex (I had a pretty good habit of absolutely banishing any sexual thought that came to my mind because they were "mortal sins". If one happened to slip through I would haul myself off in shame to confession where I would feel terrible and ball my eyes out. Or sometimes I would be half asleep half awake in the morning masturbating...that was even worse...and it was so hard to confess those things. So embarrassing) I can't bring myself to actually engage in intercourse. It freaks the hell out of me. I feel like I will be less worthy. When I was in grade 8, I felt all depressed and like I lost my virginity when I danced (just an innocent slow dance) with a dude at our final school dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 One reason why your father wants you to tell you more may be because he (subconsciously) wants more opportunities to criticize you, in hopes he can control you. Be on the look out for that behavior and call him out on it. If he wants to have a relationship with you he should be respectful of who you are. You may need to be the adult in the relationship. Wow, that is unfortunate that you are so guilt-ridden concerning your natural urges. Sex isn't a big deal, really. Sorry to ask a personal question, but can you handle foreplay and being aroused and it's just the 'last step' that you're scared of? Or do you feel guilty just for being aroused? You may want to consider counseling if your anxiety is gripping you when the thought of intercourse hits you. Now, not being a woman, I'm not exactly qualified to help you, however I do have an anxiety disorder so I kind of understand what you're saying. Evolution designed us so that on average sex would be satisfying and fulfilling. Enjoying sex is no different than enjoying a cheeseburger or ice cream in that regard, so long as you use protection if you aren't ready for children it's alright...(and cheeseburgers are okay if you exercise and don't go overboard.) I hope you will, for your own sake, build up the desire challenge your conceptions and fears. I used to fear intimacy of any kind because I was terrified of being a 'pervert', so I had trouble making a move on girls lest I be slapped and berated for having my sinful urges. When I finally, against my anxiety's will, forced my lips onto the lips of a girl that I liked and discovered true passion, the wall of guilt crumbled and that is one of the happiest memories of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 I am going to defy him. Funny thing, though. I HAVEN'T been calling him asking for approval. In fact, I have been avoiding telling him this sort of stuff because of the way he responds. But he told me that he was all hurt that my bf's mother knows more about my relationship than him. He said he wants me to start telling him stuff and talking stuff over. Now, I am certainly not going to tell mention everything to him, but I specifically choose to tell him about the apartment because he kindly suggested that I do such things. Is his input helpful in your decision-making process? Or are you pretending his input is helpful so that he doesn't have to face difficult feelings of separation and difference like a grown-up? Phanta I'd say the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight-mindwanderings Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 In fact, I am so twisted when it comes to sex (I had a pretty good habit of absolutely banishing any sexual thought that came to my mind because they were "mortal sins". If one happened to slip through I would haul myself off in shame to confession where I would feel terrible and ball my eyes out. Or sometimes I would be half asleep half awake in the morning masturbating...that was even worse...and it was so hard to confess those things. So embarrassing) I can't bring myself to actually engage in intercourse. It freaks the hell out of me. I feel like I will be less worthy. When I was in grade 8, I felt all depressed and like I lost my virginity when I danced (just an innocent slow dance) with a dude at our final school dance. I am so sorry you are going through this! I understand exactly what you mean, though I had some added baggage from being sexually assaulted. Between my Christian upbringing and that it took me years to have sex with my boyfriend (now husband). But when I finally worked through all the guilt and fears it was like being actually free for the first time. Even though I abandoned my beliefs a few years before, it wasn't until I had taken control over my feelings toward sex that I felt entirely past it. Don't force it, but work on rebuilding your sexual identity and shedding the guilt complex. Freedom in intimacy will follow. And I am almost an avid supporter of females masturbating. I am not going to say everyone has to, but I highly recommend fully exploring your body because it makes amazing sex that much easier. I feel terrible for girls who never do and then don't ever orgasm during sex cause they have no idea what makes that happen. Anyway, demonizing sexuality is one of my least favorite things that Christians do so I get worked up when I see other people suffering from the effects of it. I became quite pagan after I shed Christianity, becoming comfortable enough with my body to be naked with friends (male and female) and viewing sexuality from a pagan mindset really helped me get over the last puritanical lingering thoughts. After all, the orgasm was the original religious experience I assume children are not in your near future plans. Make sure you are on some sort of birth control - pill, patch, shot, IUD. I got pregnant 6 months after first having sex even using condoms. I am freakishly fertile, but its wise nonetheless. And once living together those inhibitions will probably fade more quickly. Just saying I mean, most girls are anyway - as idiotic as it sounds I was too afraid of getting a pap done to get on the pill. Congratulations on your grades, your job, your boyfriend and your apartment! You have so much going for you, I am sure your parents will come around. I wouldn't have thought mine would but they eventually got over me getting pregnant and I didn't think that was possible. Parents can't help but love their kids and be proud of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaraOlive Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 HelloWorld, good luck with staying strong and standing up to your parents. I've been going through some of the same things with my parents. When my boyfriend and I moved in together, my parents chose to "tolerate" it as just a short phase that they could deal with until we got married, although like your parents, they gave me the "disappointment" guilt trip. We didn't get married, largely because I view marriage in America as being tied to religion and sexism, and we decided to buy a house together. We barely talk about anything but the most mundane (and grating) small talk anymore, but it still makes me nervous when I talk to them. Sometimes I wish they'd just disown me. I've worked through a lot of issues dealing with seeking their approval, but it seems like as long as they're in my life in any way, their disapproval still upsets me a bit. I don't think that's totally bad. It IS sad to not be able to trust and be open with your own family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 In fact, I am so twisted when it comes to sex (I had a pretty good habit of absolutely banishing any sexual thought that came to my mind because they were "mortal sins". If one happened to slip through I would haul myself off in shame to confession where I would feel terrible and ball my eyes out. Or sometimes I would be half asleep half awake in the morning masturbating...that was even worse...and it was so hard to confess those things. So embarrassing) I can't bring myself to actually engage in intercourse. It freaks the hell out of me. I feel like I will be less worthy. When I was in grade 8, I felt all depressed and like I lost my virginity when I danced (just an innocent slow dance) with a dude at our final school dance. I am so sorry you are going through this! I understand exactly what you mean, though I had some added baggage from being sexually assaulted. Between my Christian upbringing and that it took me years to have sex with my boyfriend (now husband). But when I finally worked through all the guilt and fears it was like being actually free for the first time. Even though I abandoned my beliefs a few years before, it wasn't until I had taken control over my feelings toward sex that I felt entirely past it. Don't force it, but work on rebuilding your sexual identity and shedding the guilt complex. Freedom in intimacy will follow. And I am almost an avid supporter of females masturbating. I am not going to say everyone has to, but I highly recommend fully exploring your body because it makes amazing sex that much easier. I feel terrible for girls who never do and then don't ever orgasm during sex cause they have no idea what makes that happen. Anyway, demonizing sexuality is one of my least favorite things that Christians do so I get worked up when I see other people suffering from the effects of it. I became quite pagan after I shed Christianity, becoming comfortable enough with my body to be naked with friends (male and female) and viewing sexuality from a pagan mindset really helped me get over the last puritanical lingering thoughts. After all, the orgasm was the original religious experience I assume children are not in your near future plans. Make sure you are on some sort of birth control - pill, patch, shot, IUD. I got pregnant 6 months after first having sex even using condoms. I am freakishly fertile, but its wise nonetheless. And once living together those inhibitions will probably fade more quickly. Just saying I mean, most girls are anyway - as idiotic as it sounds I was too afraid of getting a pap done to get on the pill. Congratulations on your grades, your job, your boyfriend and your apartment! You have so much going for you, I am sure your parents will come around. I wouldn't have thought mine would but they eventually got over me getting pregnant and I didn't think that was possible. Parents can't help but love their kids and be proud of them. HelloWorld, good luck with staying strong and standing up to your parents. I've been going through some of the same things with my parents. When my boyfriend and I moved in together, my parents chose to "tolerate" it as just a short phase that they could deal with until we got married, although like your parents, they gave me the "disappointment" guilt trip. We didn't get married, largely because I view marriage in America as being tied to religion and sexism, and we decided to buy a house together. We barely talk about anything but the most mundane (and grating) small talk anymore, but it still makes me nervous when I talk to them. Sometimes I wish they'd just disown me. I've worked through a lot of issues dealing with seeking their approval, but it seems like as long as they're in my life in any way, their disapproval still upsets me a bit. I don't think that's totally bad. It IS sad to not be able to trust and be open with your own family. Thanks so much for your experiences...I find it very comforting to know that other people have the same experiences I have. Makes me feel less weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksandstuff Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Congratulations, and I would echo the sentiment and hope expressed above that your parents will come around. Time and patience can go a long way to reconciling others to changes like you have gone through. Good luck, and I hope you continue to enjoy all the good parts of your life without the parental relationships overshadowing so much. "I had yet to talk to me dad. I expected him to be more understanding and less fire and brimstone because he is sort of an agnostic." I wonder if he feels caught between your mother and you, needing to support your mother in the arguments because he has to deal with her more immediately. Just wondering, I have felt that way in my relationship with my wife in dealing with my children, even (shamefully) going off on them if they have angered their mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 I wonder if he feels caught between your mother and you, needing to support your mother in the arguments because he has to deal with her more immediately. I think that in some matters he feels caught between us, but not here. He told me months and months ago that he hoped I would never live with anyone before I was married. He is socially conservative. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelloWorld Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 New update on the bf's job front. The HR lady said she would get back to us today, but it was 5pm NYC time (where she is) and we still hadn't heard. So, my bf emailed her. She emailed back and said that they want to make my bf an offer but they are waiting to see if the client (it's a consulting firm) wants to talk with my bf before they make an official offer. Apparently the firm itself is ready to make the offer. So yay! We pretty much have the job!!!! We emailed the girl for the apartment we were looking at (she was holding it for us until at least tonight), and let her know what is up. We are hoping the rental agency will let us sign the lease. So yayayaya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm so glad to hear all the good news in your post. It's a fact that what you've done with your life is something to be proud of. I hope for my own daughter to have a similar story in ten or 15 years. That your parents disapprove, reflects an unfortunate issue on their part, not yours. The ironic thing is, that the heart of what your parents disapprove of: the courage you displayed having bucked the catholic church and the guilt and the unreasonably socially conservative upbringing and your parents' vision for you to make the strides that you have toward becoming a fulfilled, well adjusted adult is far more commendable and worthy of approval than caving to your parents' will (thereby garnering their approval) would have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 BTW, eventually you will no longer seek parental approval. It just stops being a concern for most people. I hope this is true. I never thought of it before, but I really am hung up on parental approval, aren't I? Doing something they so strongly disprove of makes me feel so guilty. I think they are trying to scare me out of it all, too. It's just so tiring to live in fear...especially since I have anxiety and OCD-type problems. It would bother me if I had conflicts with my parents clear into my thirties. I loved and respected them. But you have to live for yourself now, and seek happiness and progress despite what they may say. They will adjust. This is a hard transition for many young people pursuing their goals and happiness in life. It's possible your dad is being pressured a bit by your mom to "talk you out" of living with your boyfriend. I wouldn't worry about it. Family problems have always aggravated feelings of anxiety for myself as well, and often I would feel guilty about things but then realize that I had a right to be happy. My parents were hopelessly "Victorian" in their thinking at times. Once you get settled, you'll likely find that they will accept the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 HW, I think what you've accomplished is very inspiring! You've obviously got a fine mind and already know a great deal about how and why to direct your personal power. You've got excellent wisdom. I love seeing successes like yourself and just wish your parents could appreciate what you've done appropriately. All the way through both of these threads, I kept thinking that if I had to deal with that kind of guilt-tripping from my own dad, I'd be inclined to ask him something like, "Dad, if I'm responsible for your feelings in that way, then are you responsible for mine in the same way? Or not?" And just let it hang there. And repeat it as many times as I needed to. Of course, your mom seems to be a whole different matter. I wouldn't say something like that to her directly. If I did, I'd just expect her to spin it wildly out of context and instantly go right off the deep end with it. This kind of manipulation is something I find disgusting, because it depends on taking hostages. It doesn't matter that they're taking themselves hostage, it's still hostage-taking, and there's no way I've ever been able to respect that behavior any time I've encountered it, in any context. I consider it a tacit confession that they are not competent to get what they want in an appropriate, adult way. Further, when the issue is framed as your own parents have, as a matter of morality, then I see it as a confession that they haven't had enough real concern for morality to do the self-examination necessary to avoid the immorality of deciding to take hostages, which tells me that morality really isn't the issue, control is. If morality were truly all that damned important to them, they wouldn't be behaving that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddinhead Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 As you move from a child-parent relationship, to an adult-adult relationship with your parents, sometimes your attitudes will have to change before their attitudes change. One thing that I am watching in my own life, with some struggling "new adults" and controlling parents, is that the child can move the parents to having an adult relationship by changing their own behavior and the way they perceive the relationship. For instance, I notice that you say they keep telling you how disappointed they are with you. Have you considered expressing the same feeling back to them? For instance "I understand that you're disappointed. I'm disappointed by your lack of support right now." That would be appropriate, if said in the right tone of voice. You're an adult who has the right to feel just as disappointed as they feel and to express that disappointment clearly and respectfully. Try not to let them play any more of these one-sided conversational tricks with you. It's a way of keeping you as the child in the relationship. Congrats on the job. It's a very tough job market these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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