Theological Questions That Always Bothered Me.

[John09]

I don't know if this is the right section to post this thread, but here goes:

 

These are a few theological questions that have haunted me and helped finally push me over the fence to leaving christianity.

 

1. If Jesus was truly an acceptable sacrifice for sin, he should have suffered multiple eternities in hell. Since the entire world's historical population's impending punishment will be, when all added together, an enormous amount of time in hell, why did Jesus get such a good deal out of his part? It's not right or fair that he only had to be dead for a couple of days to pay for our sins. It just doesn't make sense.

 

2. If one believes in free will, why would a loving god allow billions of people to be born destined for hell, when he knew they would be ending up there by eventually denying him?

 

3. If one believes in predestination, why would a loving god predestine billions of people to hell just to prove he likes to punish sin?

 

4. If we as humans are just in holding someone accountable for not preventing a crime when they could have, how can god be excused for allowing the continual commission of countless evil deeds when he should be able to prevent them?

 

I was always taught to ignore such questions. Now that I really examine them objectively, I find the christian tendency to ignore and excuse them irrational. The christian god is not someone you want with you in a foxhole.

[Guest Davka]

Good questions.

 

#1 is usually answered by saying that Jesus is GodMan, so he can cram a whole lot of suffering into just three days.

 

#2 and #3 are real hit-em-where-it-hurts questions. The only way I was able to reconcile a loving God with Hell was to discard the doctrine of eternal punishment. I first leaned towards annihilation, and later towards universalism. It used to really freak out my fellow Christians when I would tell them that if God sends people to Hell, I'd rather be in Hell than worship a sadistic psychopath like that.

 

#4 is usually answered by saying that most suffering is caused by the actions of human beings, and God could not prevent it without taking away free will. To which I reply, then why did God create us in the first place, since he knew we would treat each other so terribly?

 

The christian god is not someone you want with you in a foxhole.

 

It is with with a strong sense of irony that I say Amen, preach it brother!

[HelloWorld]

I don't know if this is the right section to post this thread, but here goes:

 

These are a few theological questions that have haunted me and helped finally push me over the fence to leaving christianity.

 

1. If Jesus was truly an acceptable sacrifice for sin, he should have suffered multiple eternities in hell. Since the entire world's historical population's impending punishment will be, when all added together, an enormous amount of time in hell, why did Jesus get such a good deal out of his part? It's not right or fair that he only had to be dead for a couple of days to pay for our sins. It just doesn't make sense.

 

2. If one believes in free will, why would a loving god allow billions of people to be born destined for hell, when he knew they would be ending up there by eventually denying him?

 

3. If one believes in predestination, why would a loving god predestine billions of people to hell just to prove he likes to punish sin?

 

4. If we as humans are just in holding someone accountable for not preventing a crime when they could have, how can god be excused for allowing the continual commission of countless evil deeds when he should be able to prevent them?

 

I was always taught to ignore such questions. Now that I really examine them objectively, I find the christian tendency to ignore and excuse them irrational. The christian god is not someone you want with you in a foxhole.

 

I can really relate to a variation of #2. I say:

 

Suppose God is all-loving and all-knowing. Suppose also that God creates all life.

 

According to Christianity, at least one person will end up in hell when they die. Hell is a place of terrible suffering. Jesus himself (God himself) said that it would be better for people who end up going to hell to have never been born.

 

Since God is all-knowing, he knew that this one person would end up in hell. Still, he created this person even though he himself said it would have been better if he had not been born. Certainly this is not all-loving (not to mention hypocritical).

 

Consider that he could have chosen not to create this person who he knew would go to hell. This would not have violated free will (since that which does not yet exist cannot possibly have free will), and it does not violate that God is all-loving. However, according to Christianity, this is not how things are.

 

So, either God is all-knowing, or all-loving. He can't be both. Thus, the Christian God cannot exist.

 

The end.

[John09]

 

Consider that he could have chosen not to create this person who he knew would go to hell. This would not have violated free will (since that which does not yet exist cannot possibly have free will), and it does not violate that God is all-loving. However, according to Christianity, this is not how things are.

 

So, either God is all-knowing, or all-loving. He can't be both. Thus, the Christian God cannot exist.

 

The end.

 

That is so true. The defensive argument that christians usually give to the whole question is that god wants people to be able to choose. So, evidently the christian god loves the ability to choose more than he loves the people themselves. It is absurd.

[FiddlingAround]

To add to number three, there's a passage in Romans that to my mind makes it very hard to reconcile a non-predestination view with a literal reading of the Bible. Back when I was an xtian, this bothered me greatly and I was always looking for a way around it. I never found one that seemed like a legitimate reading instead of a desperate attempt to justify.

 

From Romans 9:

 

15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

 

I especially like that Paul seems to recognize the fundamental injustice of this but instead of addressing it just says that we have no right to question god!

[dagnarus]

To add to number three, there's a passage in Romans that to my mind makes it very hard to reconcile a non-predestination view with a literal reading of the Bible. Back when I was an xtian, this bothered me greatly and I was always looking for a way around it. I never found one that seemed like a legitimate reading instead of a desperate attempt to justify.

 

From Romans 9:

 

15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

 

I especially like that Paul seems to recognize the fundamental injustice of this but instead of addressing it just says that we have no right to question god!

 

I agree with you. Personally I don't understand why the whole all knowing god, eternal perdition, free will debate even exists. The bible answers the reason why some people will go to hell here quite succinctly, because God wants them there. Personally I think the fact that Christians answer this question with the whole "Free Will" tap dance, instead of just using the ready made answer in the bible to answer it (especially seeing as how it seems to refute their "Free Will" argument), is as good an indication as any that Christians know damn well this is evil. Personally I think that when people want to argue this point with Christians they should skip the whole, Omniscience vs Omni-benevolence preamble and skip straight too the fact that your all loving god created people with the specific purpose that they would be tormented for all eternity, the Bible says so.

 

That said I'm not certain but it's possible that when Paul was writing this he didn't have eternal perdition in mind but simply a lack of resurrection. I'm not certain I haven't studied Paul's writings without the influence of other books.

[Deva]

I can't reconcile a God of love with such a place or state as eternal hell. The predestination doctrine is monstrous, as is the idea of Gods "justice".

 

It does not make sense why a God that loves everyone would put a time limit on his grace. If there is an eternal soul and afterlife, why not still continue the opportunity for salvation after death? Why is physical death the cut off point? I think the Catholic Church recognized this problem and so invented purgatory. An improvement, but still doesn't make for a God I would consider loving.

 

A loving God would never have created something like hell in the first place.

 

Christians either have to modify the definition of "hell" or the definition of "love". Its always too much word twisting.

[HelloWorld]

 

It does not make sense why a God that loves everyone would put a time limit on his grace. If there is an eternal soul and afterlife, why not still continue the opportunity for salvation after death? Why is physical death the cut off point? I think the Catholic Church recognized this problem and so invented purgatory. An improvement, but still doesn't make for a God I would consider loving.

 

 

 

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what purgatory is.

 

Catholics believe that at the moment of death the soul's eternal "home" is definitively determined. If you are going to hell, you go to hell. There are no second chances.

 

Purgatory is for souls who are definitively destined for heaven but "need to get cleaned up before entering the wedding banquet". Purgatory is for souls who die in God's grace and friendship but still have some ties to sin that need to be washed away. Once a soul in purgatory has is squeaky clean, they are ushered into heaven. Nobody who has made it to purgatory goes to hell.

 

As stated by the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

 

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

 

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

 

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

 

II. HEAVEN

 

1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:598

 

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

 

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

 

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

 

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

 

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

 

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

[Deva]

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what purgatory is.

 

Catholics believe that at the moment of death the soul's eternal "home" is definitively determined. If you are going to hell, you go to hell. There are no second chances.

 

Yes, I stand corrected.

[HelloWorld]

I think you may have a misunderstanding of what purgatory is.

 

Catholics believe that at the moment of death the soul's eternal "home" is definitively determined. If you are going to hell, you go to hell. There are no second chances.

 

Yes, I stand corrected.

 

Sorry I went all quote happy on you. I had just woken up...wasn't thinking clearly.

[Deva]

Sorry I went all quote happy on you. I had just woken up...wasn't thinking clearly.

 

That's OK HelloWorld. I knew it was nothing personal.

[centauri]

I don't know if this is the right section to post this thread, but here goes:

 

These are a few theological questions that have haunted me and helped finally push me over the fence to leaving christianity.

 

1. If Jesus was truly an acceptable sacrifice for sin, he should have suffered multiple eternities in hell. Since the entire world's historical population's impending punishment will be, when all added together, an enormous amount of time in hell, why did Jesus get such a good deal out of his part? It's not right or fair that he only had to be dead for a couple of days to pay for our sins. It just doesn't make sense.

 

2. If one believes in free will, why would a loving god allow billions of people to be born destined for hell, when he knew they would be ending up there by eventually denying him?

 

3. If one believes in predestination, why would a loving god predestine billions of people to hell just to prove he likes to punish sin?

The questions you raise are good ones, and I asked myself the same thing.

Regarding #1,

Jesus wasn't an acceptable sacrifice for sin if one takes the Law of God seriously. Human beings are not acceptable sin sacrifices nor was Jeus sacrificed according to the stipulations of the Law.

Christians get around this by claiming Jesus is God and can do whatever he wants, so if the rules changed(despite claims that God's standards are unchanging), then that's what happened. God can do whatever he wants, any time he wants.

And as you point out, Jesus isn't in hell serving the eternal punishment for anyone.

Ironically, God told his people not to be seduced by false doctrines that do not conform with what he taught people like Moses.

But with Christianity, God's word is like putty, and can be pulled apart and molded to create a new religion that deems itself a proper replacement for the "old system".

The "old system" said each person would die for their own sin but could save themselves with their own actions.

 

#2

Free will doesn't mean much because the Bible strongly supports predestination.

If God determines in advance the path some people will take, which the Bible says he does, then there is no way to determine how many decisions are made by you and how many are made by God.

Since God is sovereign, he can do whatever he wants.

In a way, predestination makes life easier and hurts the church.

Why bother praying if outcomes are determined in advance?

Why tithe or go to church if your fate is already decided?

 

#3

Perhaps it's all a big dramatic show, complete with "good" and "evil".

The Bible says God's works are perfect.

If perfect means without flaw, then the whole scheme of a rebellious Adam and Eve bringing sin into the world is a facade.

If sin is an imperfection and a "wrong" action, then Adam and Eve were not created perfect.

As soon as a perfect being makes an imperfect decision, it shows that it wasn't created perfect in the first place.

Regardless of how much "free will" Adam and Eve may have had, as soon as they sinned it showed they were not perfect, they were flawed.

A perfect being can't perform an imperfect act unless there is no such thing as "sin", with all outcomes being equally accepted.

Or perhaps God intentionally created an imperfect work because he was bored and wanted to see what happened.

But if he did that, then his "holy" moral standards are also a facade.

God is supposed to be omniscient, and already knew what was going to happen.

Most Christians will respond by saying perfect doesn't mean without flaw in this case, it only means complete.

But that doesn't work either because if they were complete and still sinned, then they lacked an ingredient that would have kept them from sinning, assuming sin is a sign of failure.

I remember spinning around for days with a pastor on this issue and nothing was ever resolved, only that he told me to trust Jesus, which is no answer.

[John09]

Yes, all so true. I remember trying to excuse and ignore the Romans 11 passage for years. Then I began hanging out with the calvinist crowd, and I really realized that it really was saying what I didn't want it to. It all started making sense: the christian god was unbearable.

[Shyone]

 

That is so true. The defensive argument that christians usually give to the whole question is that god wants people to be able to choose. So, evidently the christian god loves the ability to choose more than he loves the people themselves. It is absurd.

This will seem like a really strange way to look at this, but...

 

If believing is important, and a man is ignorant on Thursday (or disbelieves), is Born Again on Friday, and loses faith on Satuday, then he should have died on Friday because otherwise he'll go to hell.

 

And...

 

If you, as a loving believing parent, knew that your child would become an atheist and go to hell, but your child is baptised, confirmed and a believer now, what action would you take to keep your child out of hell? Would you sacrifice your own immortal soul for the sake of your child's soul? Even if it meant killing him/her?

 

Sorry, this is just too gruesome to contemplate, but theology, based on faulty premises, leads to strange conclusions that Christians don't want to imagine.

[Shyone]

Grace and Predestination

 

I may not really understand all this stuff, but understanding it is not crucial to me.

 

If Grace means that a person is predestined to Heaven or Hell according to God's Will, and the person will manifest this grace on Earth, but others emulating him/her won't, then what's the point of living?

 

Why not just skip the whole life thing and put the souls directly into Heaven or Hell - according to divine Will?

 

It makes life less than pointless to be acting out a predetermined script for the benefit of Mr. Kite.

[John09]

Grace and Predestination

 

I may not really understand all this stuff, but understanding it is not crucial to me.

 

If Grace means that a person is predestined to Heaven or Hell according to God's Will, and the person will manifest this grace on Earth, but others emulating him/her won't, then what's the point of living?

 

Why not just skip the whole life thing and put the souls directly into Heaven or Hell - according to divine Will?

 

It makes life less than pointless to be acting out a predetermined script for the benefit of Mr. Kite.

 

This is a good point. I recently asked a friend of mine who just graduated from cemetary...or, excuse me...seminary what the ultimate purpose of god was for those who would never go to heaven. He told me in reply that their only purpose was to glorify god's justice and make believers more grateful for their salvation when their lives were compared to unbelievers.

 

He paid money to learn that.

[RaisedPB]

To add to number three, there's a passage in Romans that to my mind makes it very hard to reconcile a non-predestination view with a literal reading of the Bible. Back when I was an xtian, this bothered me greatly and I was always looking for a way around it. I never found one that seemed like a legitimate reading instead of a desperate attempt to justify.

 

From Romans 9:

 

15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

 

I especially like that Paul seems to recognize the fundamental injustice of this but instead of addressing it just says that we have no right to question god!

 

Exactly. This is the passage I could never reconcile with the evangelical concept of God's unconditional love for all of humanity. Clearly this is not unconditional and not extended to all humanity. At least I can respect this view and that of hard-core Calvinists that say God does what God wants and who are you to question it. I don't believe it, but at least it's consistent. To say that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving, and that Jesus' sacrifice covered all sin, yet most of humanity will go to eternal torture because they don't accept it, was a dissonance I could no longer do the mental gymanistics required to hold on to.

[RaisedPB]

 

That is so true. The defensive argument that christians usually give to the whole question is that god wants people to be able to choose. So, evidently the christian god loves the ability to choose more than he loves the people themselves. It is absurd.

This will seem like a really strange way to look at this, but...

 

If believing is important, and a man is ignorant on Thursday (or disbelieves), is Born Again on Friday, and loses faith on Satuday, then he should have died on Friday because otherwise he'll go to hell.

 

And...

 

If you, as a loving believing parent, knew that your child would become an atheist and go to hell, but your child is baptised, confirmed and a believer now, what action would you take to keep your child out of hell? Would you sacrifice your own immortal soul for the sake of your child's soul? Even if it meant killing him/her?

 

Sorry, this is just too gruesome to contemplate, but theology, based on faulty premises, leads to strange conclusions that Christians don't want to imagine.

 

I think there was a Law and Order episode with that very theme. A crazy fundy killed her kids (or had one of the older children do it) to prevent them from being corrupted by the world.

[RaisedPB]

Grace and Predestination

 

I may not really understand all this stuff, but understanding it is not crucial to me.

 

If Grace means that a person is predestined to Heaven or Hell according to God's Will, and the person will manifest this grace on Earth, but others emulating him/her won't, then what's the point of living?

 

Why not just skip the whole life thing and put the souls directly into Heaven or Hell - according to divine Will?

 

It makes life less than pointless to be acting out a predetermined script for the benefit of Mr. Kite.

 

This is a good point. I recently asked a friend of mine who just graduated from cemetary...or, excuse me...seminary what the ultimate purpose of god was for those who would never go to heaven. He told me in reply that their only purpose was to glorify god's justice and make believers more grateful for their salvation when their lives were compared to unbelievers.

 

He paid money to learn that.

 

Nice. That's the kind of theology that leads to hate and killing. If god doesn't value them, why should we? Disgusting.

[Shyone]

 

 

I think there was a Law and Order episode with that very theme. A crazy fundy killed her kids (or had one of the older children do it) to prevent them from being corrupted by the world.

Are you perhaps thinking of Andrea Yates, who drowned her 5 children to save them from sin?

 

I suppose she was just following God's example when he drowned his children, but for a different theological reason.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Some Christians like to go off about how hell wasn't created (per se) because it is simply a state of being eternally separated from God. The whole 'darkness is merely the absence of light" sort of thing. Also its Satan that will be torturing you there since he is the one ruling this "state of separation from God" and he is the one in charge of the burning and whatnot. I also have heard (this is a somewhat separate belief) that those not saved by grace are not actually god's children but are literally spawn of the devil. This is something *true* believers can say because they live in a fantasy world where demons take the form of man and are here to tempt them away from god's saving grace. All of these things fail to address another issue and that is how much more power Satan seems to have than God - he created other religions to confuse us, science to shake our faith, even makes Christians do things like rape children or have sex with a gay prostitute while high on meth. All this time God's just sitting up there going - "what I gave you a book! Its perfectly clear, figure it out". Very helpful indeed.

 

But yeah, even while Christian I just couldn't reconcile a belief in hell. Being CoC, I was taught that even the vast vast majority of Christians were going to hell. We had a sermon about how the vast majority of CoC people were also going to hell. I had essentially given up I could ever make in into heaven anyway, figured I'd enjoy the life I had while it lasted. Plus I never liked the other Christian kids, much preferred my heathen friends. I told them, 'I'd rather go to hell with you guys than have to spend eternity with those assholes.' Still very much true. I mean seriously, if heaven is full of people like Rush Limbaugh or my old CoC pastor (very similar people tbh), being around people like that for eternity would be the worst kind of hell. "Please God, throw me into the fire!"

[Shyone]

Some Christians like to go off about how hell wasn't created (per se) because it is simply a state of being eternally separated from God. The whole 'darkness is merely the absence of light" sort of thing. Also its Satan that will be torturing you there since he is the one ruling this "state of separation from God" and he is the one in charge of the burning and whatnot. I also have heard (this is a somewhat separate belief) that those not saved by grace are not actually god's children but are literally spawn of the devil.

<snip>

This is probably a topic for another thread, but after really really thinking about what a "god" (little "g") is, it occurred to me that there are many "entities" in the Bible that meet my criteria for a god.

 

Satan is perhaps less powerful than Yahweh, but he is independent, named, supernatural and influences things on Earth.

 

Christianity is unavoidably polytheistic. (and I'm not even talking about the arch angels, saints, or the trinity).

[Neon Genesis]

All of these things fail to address another issue and that is how much more power Satan seems to have than God - he created other religions to confuse us, science to shake our faith, even makes Christians do things like rape children or have sex with a gay prostitute while high on meth. All this time God's just sitting up there going - "what I gave you a book! Its perfectly clear, figure it out". Very helpful indeed.

You'd almost think we didn't have free will.

 

I mean seriously, if heaven is full of people like Rush Limbaugh or my old CoC pastor (very similar people tbh), being around people like that for eternity would be the worst kind of hell. "Please God, throw me into the fire!"

What's that saying, heaven for the atmosphere, hell for the culture or something like that?