I Need Help!

[DirtbagDan]

Hey there everybody, I don't know how large this post will be (i'm suspecting it will be very big but I will try to keep everything explained in as short and small nutshell as I possibly can, which is going to be difficult). I also want to mention I am not sure where this type of post should go, so I am sticking this into Ex-Christan Life, as it seems most appropriate there…

 

Obviously, this is my first post here and I am a newcomer to these forums. I will start off with an introduction of myself and then expand from there. My name is Dan, i'm 22 years old and I live in Toronto, Canada. I was born and raised in a MESSIANIC Jewish family, and my father is a retired synagogue cantor (a part of the clergy in the synagogue). He will play a key significance in what I will be explaining. After years of trying to find out what I want to do with my life, I have decided I am currently studying towards becoming a medical scientific researcher either in the fields of endocrinology (study of hormones on the human body) or virology (study of viruses), and/or Human Enhancement. I previously (3 years ago) spent 2 years in the military. I guess this post will be a culmination of things including my story on how I became drawn away from religion, but above all, this is an "I need someone to talk to" post because I feel as though i'm being driven to madness.

 

My situation is one of uniqueness but one of commonality here. As I said, I am Jewish and was raised Jewish with the little twist of evangelical (or what I like to call fundamentalist) Christianity added in there, and my father brought me, and the whole family up that way. I am not an only child, I do have one younger brother (7 years younger than me). So, where do I start with this? I will first point out that I am a natural skeptic of things before I explain things. As a child, the first schools I was sent to (from grades 1 - 4) were private Jewish schools. From grades 1-4, my grades were horrible as far as I remember, and that is when my parents and I realized these private Jewish schools were crap (all they taught was useless religious stuff that would not help you when you enter post-secondary education, etc), and I was pulled out and put into a proper public school system. The first books I was bought as a child were children's bible storybooks; the first things I was taught by my father were those things, of course. Everything I went through was Judaism-oriented, but my father had topped it off with Jesus and fundamentalist Christianity. That is why I mentioned my situation is very unique. Most of you (maybe ALL of you) here were raised in Christian families and indoctrinated with this at a young age, but all from a Christian root. Here I am, born and raised Jewish, but ALSO being taught that Jesus Christ is my lord and savior, and that by accepting him I will enter heaven for eternity.

 

Perhaps my parents pulled me out of those private Jewish schools for another main reason? What I was being taught there was the Jewish aspect of things, in that you get to heaven by doing more good works than sins. Meanwhile at home I was being told that Jesus was the only way to heaven. Seems like a conflict going on there, no? Anyhow, I never noticed it as a child. When I thought back to it when I was older, I saw it. Every Saturday I was forced to go to Synagogue, and be as extremely strict as possible with Jewish laws and customs as my father was a part of the synagogue clergy, and his family had to set an example for the rest of the congregation (no TV on the sabbath, no working, no homework, no driving cars to synagogue, etc. and so on and so forth). One thing I remember that stands out was as a child, unable to spend the weekend with friends, or go to friends' birthday parties on Saturdays due to that. My father ran our household according to the bible and still does to this day. Any decisions he must make, and any morals he needs, EVERYTHING he obtains from the bible. One thing I noticed a lot as a child and still to this day are the ridiculous masses of contradictory statements he makes when talking about all kinds of things. He may say one thing, and a year later when it is mentioned again he will say he 'never said that', or he will say something completely different. In any case, that sums up my childhood in as short of a nutshell as I possibly can. Let us move on...

 

The very first signs of tension and conflict between my father was at the age of about 14 or 15, when I expressed great interest and enthusiasm in enlisting the military when I graduate highschool. A soon as this occurred, I was met with a barrage of discouraging (and most of the time downright hurtful) comments and lectures from him day after day (I call it emotional and psychological abuse, which would continue for years to this day, however not always about the same subject). “Only stupid people join the army”, “Why do you want to be in man’s army? You are in God’s army”, “You are being afflicted by demonic spirits of violence and it is driving you to join the military”, “If you join the military, I will force you to sign a document and I will disown you” are just a few out of possibly thousands of the ridiculous statements made to me. This type of activity would occur in the future over and over whenever I would do anything my father did not approve of, essentially abusing me psychologically and mentally in an effort to control me. Around the time this began happening (about the age of 15), I told myself I would not share information with my parents anymore about my ambitions, plans, etc. and so I essentially changed my attitudes with them.

 

I am not trying to re-iterate my de-conversion story here. Though I may discuss it here and there, and these events do tie in with it, I think I will save that for another post if you all here are interested in hearing the de-conversion story of somebody raised through Messianic Judaism. So what am I doing here? Well, as I stated earlier, I need my words to fall on the ears of people who can listen to me. Is it a plea of help? I don’t know. I do know that what I feel right now may perhaps have serious implications in the future. Am I depressed? No. Am I somebody who is depressed often? NO. I am somebody who is merely consumed by anger and hate, and living with the person who has infused me with that doesn’t help. Moving on…

 

Would it be too harsh of words to say I hate my father? I do. The man has attempted to control my life on numerous occasions (and succeeded at certain points) with the use of religion and religious beliefs as a device to control me and bend me towards his preferences. Yes, I did end up enlisting in the military at 17 years old. Did he disown me? No, he forgot about that statement he made towards me 2 years prior, but of course he still did not support me. Now, these strong feelings I hold right now (I did previously iterate the word ‘hate’), did I harbor these feelings back then? No. I strongly disliked my father back then for what he did at the time but the breaking point, the last straw, was an incident of the same nature as I have previously described, which happened 6 months ago. This, coincidentally, was also the breaking point where I started to believe less and less in Jesus, religion, and everything related to it at an accelerated rate. In general, I would have to say my belief had begun to erode extremely slowly over my late teen years. But things have accelerated MUCH faster over the previous 2 years, and the final point where the erosion of religious beliefs reached light-speed was right after an event 6 months ago.

 

I met a woman in November of 2008 who lived in a town about an hour away from where I live. We became close with each other and it ended up turning into a relationship. I had to see her in secret and lie to my parents about where I would be going, etc. I had numerous relationships in the past, but I kept them all from my parents’ knowledge. Eventually it got to a point with this girl where I figured I would break the news. I’m sure most of you here can see where this is going. Anyhow, I feared the reaction from my parents would be an extremely negative one (she wasn’t Jewish and she was not a believer in Jesus, and so you, dear reader, should be able to figure out what such a reaction would be from my father). To make a long, long story as short as possible, I introduced her to my parents and brought her over for a weekend 6 months ago in February (valentines day weekend, actually). She arrived on Friday night and stayed until Sunday night, and everything had seemed to go well, although at times things were quiet with my parents due to her being shy and nervous about the visit (due to what I had told her about my parents and their ridiculous strict attitudes towards things). I would say I was terrified of what would come that weekend or even after that weekend, and I had good reason to be.

 

Sunday night I drove her to the bus station in my city so she could catch the bus back to her town and we had discussed my plan to visit her the following weekend. We said our goodbyes and so on and so forth, kissed, and I went back to my car. I sat down and for 10 minutes straight I cried VERY HARD, and it was almost as though I couldn’t stop and I had to force myself to. As much as I had hoped for everything to work out, I knew I wouldn’t see her ever again. Come Monday morning, my mother asked me how everything was over the weekend and I told her everything was fine and so on, and then I mentioned I planned to visit my girlfriend that coming weekend, and that was when the spark was lit that caused an explosion. She said to me “we are going to have to discuss what kind of relationship this is you’re having here”. She went downstairs to mention this to my father, and this is when the big situation began. I went downstairs to grab something to eat, and this is where I began receiving the harsh criticism from them. They did not approve of me being in a relationship AT ALL, and they didn't want me visiting her on the weekend. According to them, being in any relationship with a woman at all will draw me away from Jesus and my family, and destroy and de-rail my life.

 

From monday all the way until friday that week, I would be cornered and confronted for hours at a time (up to 5 or 6 hours) of my father constantly talking to me and attempting to discourage me from visiting her or even being in a relationship with her. Some of the things he would say to me I felt were downright cruel. For example, she had brought my parents chocolates when she visited as a gift. He mentioned the chocolates and said "if you visit her this weekend, you can take these chocolates back to her! I don't want them! I'm not her valentine!". My father seems to think he is correct on everything he says and does, and I (or anyone else who says otherwise) is always 100% wrong. Why? Because he claims God is speaking through him and the holy spirit is guiding him! For example, at the beginning of this event, he said "it's not the girl we're opposed to, it's what you're doing. We don't know the girl, because she barely talked about herself when she was here other than when we asked her questions. That shows me there's something about her I don't like, and I sensed an evil spirit with her." Now, of course, I mentioned to him it's because she was shy and nervous, and what a surprise, he didn't believe me. He said "yeah yeah, what does she have to be nervous about? We welcomed her into our home here and everything". Throughout the week, constant put-downs and discouragement ensued, during which several things he said to me were completely unacceptable… I cannot even mention them here.

 

He also uses manipulative questions to try and play with my head. One of the things he asked me was "Do you like chocolate? Could you do without it?" and after saying yes to both questions he asks, "do you like chocolate enough to do without it?". If you can see where he is going with that question, if I answer yes OR no, he uses that as a reason to try and discourage me from doing what I want to do. Countless other questions of that sort were used on me. I felt as though I was in a courtroom (and this is something that has happened MANY times before for years). And, all the while he is telling me "you're 21 and it's your choice if you want to go out there, but it's the WRONG decision!" until friday (which I will get to in a bit).

 

Friday arrived, and on that day, my father lectured me for 6 (yes, SIX) hours straight! This was the day where for 6 hours he barraged me straight with the religious talk. You know, the brainwashing mind-control religious scare tactic talk. He talked about stories from the old testament, comparing me to those biblical characters that made bad decisions which lead to their doom, he told me I would end up going to hell, and all of that talk… it's so convoluted and ridiculous... it just plays with your mind so much... the usual things as well, "you're Jewish, and she isn't. If you do this, you're being a rebel", etc. etc. etc. I don’t even need to further describe this junk, as nearly all of you here on this forum know about all of this. Anyhow… I played the situation down to the bone, all the way up until the last minute on friday night when I called my parents (they were out at the time) to tell them I am off to my girlfriend’s place for the weekend. This was when my father came on the phone and I remember this word for word:

 

"You are making the WRONG decision. If you leave, you are not a part of the family anymore! You can come back to the house afterwards, but it will not be the same house you left! This won't be the same family you're leaving tonight! We don't have to support you in anything we don't approve of, and if you do this, we will take it as an act of disobedience towards your parents, and you will not receive a cent in support from this family in the future if you do this! We will disown you!"

 

With that, what was I to do? I am a logical thinker and think and act with logic, reason, and rationale rather than act through emotion. Here they were threatening all university support for me and everything else. I wasn’t going to screw my situation up for some girl, so obviously I didn’t end up visiting her that weekend (or ever again). I would risk destroying my home life if I had gone through, so I really had no choice. I’ve realized that it doesn’t matter if it is your family or anyone else… you need to take care of yourself, because no one else will unless they want to control you. That night when he came home, he told me that he is 'protecting me from myself' and compared what he is doing to a commander in the military giving orders to troops because the commander is making the best decision for them (as I used to be in the military). This is absolutely bullshit ridiculous, and he went to an extreme to prevent me from leaving. He mentioned to me how he wanted my girlfriend to call him, he said "I expect this girl to call me within the next day and tell me how much she likes you! If she doesn't call, then it means she doesn't care as much about you as she thinks. And when she calls, I will tell her everything i've told you, and i'll talk to her as if she is my own daughter!". This is not the most extreme that things would become, however…

 

The next day, Saturday, I had been communicating with my girlfriend about how we were going to alleviate this situation and convince my father that everything would be fine so we could remain together without anything getting in the way. We debated on whether to have my girlfriend phone him, and eventually we came to the decision that she would email my father about how she felt. We thought this may be a good idea, but it really made it far worse and was the nail in the coffin. The email she sent him gave him a reason to now go from not approving of what I was doing, to now disapproving of HER. He was so infuriated with the email that he was about ready to kick ME out of the house right there, until he calmed down. It gave him ammunition to use to now demonize her in an effort to further push his reasoning behind not allowing me in a relationship. I believe he was purposely finding things in the email that weren't there to support his reasoning. The email was really a nice email and was not disrespectful, but my father read into the email so deeply and picked it apart so much that it could basically be described that he was now pulling random things out of a hat as a reason to dislike her and everything we are doing. It gave him a reason to call her "damaged goods", to say she is out to get me, to call her a "disturbed individual", "troubled", "not a nice person", "not the girl for you", "she's trying to take advantage of you" etc. etc. and 6 hours of criticism occurred again on saturday. He was enraged that I had told her personal things about our family (like my attitudes towards my parents) and that I did not talk to my parents about these things instead of her. She did send an apology email as well, which he nitpicked as well and used to further belittle her. He did not send any emails back to her.

 

Things became very extreme on sunday morning when my father came into my room first thing in the morning and began threatening to me that he would take her to court for the email because it constitutes as 'slander' against him, and he said that if I have anything to do with her, he's claiming that it's as if she's harassing the whole family or something along those lines. It's just another tool/method to keep us apart, and he is forbidding me to have ANY contact with her whatsoever. Of course, I didn’t listen to him, but a soon after this whole ordeal she ended up leaving me for another guy and I haven’t talked to her since.

 

Is this what Jesus/religion does? Destroy relationships, rip people apart from each other, and annihilate friendships? Well, that is exactly what happened there, in the name of Jesus. Apparently it was Jesus talking to me through my father that whole week according to my father. He caused my ex-girlfriend and I much emotional pain. After that week in Feburary, hatred became my master. All I had and still have is this deep-seeded hatred for him not because of this one incident, but because he has done this over and over, and this was the last straw. I even occasionally have dreams about dropping into a blind rage in front of my father, though I am not the type of person to do this, I always hold things in and try to be as calm and collective in any emotional situation as I can be… but I still have these dreams. And, I am not somebody who dreams regularly. Day after day following that incident I have thought about how I am going to one day turn my father’s world upside down and ‘get him back’ of sorts… and I am afraid of what I am going to do when I am done my university studies…

 

One day in early March, after work I got into my car and headed home on a rainy late afternoon. My ipod was plugged in and as I turned on the car, Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata played beautifully… my favorite piece of music. I was in such enjoyment that I actually pulled to the side of the road to listen through the whole piece, and in doing so, my mind wandered. I thought about how every night for the previous 10+ years I prayed to Jesus before going to sleep and how it at this point doesn’t even feel like anything… how it just seems like a nightly chant over and over, useless. Looking through the rain-covered windshield of my car, I thought about how I was making exceptions for myself in this belief system through its loopholes. I thought about how each verse of the bible could be taken into any context anyone wants. How is this an infallible written word of God if 10 people can look at one sentence and derive 10 different meanings from it? I thought about how what I was studying in science contradicted what religion teaches? And what I was taught by my father and those Jewish private schools as a child? The mitochondria in our cells? How did it get there? Why, if the bible Is the infallible word of God, doesn’t the bible tell us about how the world works? Why doesn’t it tell us about protons and electrons? Micro molecules? Macromolecules such as proteins, carbohydrates, and fats? Cells? Hormones? Instead all we get in the bible is a bunch of cacophony, strange allegories, and spook stories. I’m sorry, but if the almighty creator is the creator a specific religion tells me is written in their book (the Bible in this case), then why didn’t the creator tell us the mechanics of our world instead to be written in this bible instead of how we, over the previous 200+ years, have had to figure it all out ourselves? It would have saved mankind a lot of time! Why do we get these haunted house spook stories instead? Because it is all man-made. I thought all of these things and more in the span of 6 or so minutes on that rainy late afternoon in early March on the side of the road.

 

5 weeks ago marks the beginning of when I stopped praying before I go to sleep at night. Years ago I had begun to slowly doubt and question my belief (or ‘faith’ if you want to call it that) but I had hung on to it as much as I could. I was trapped in cognitive dissonance, if you will. I am now (as of 5 weeks now) realizing I must stop trying]/I] to believe this when I know I just don’t… I’m not a delusional thinker. My father is.

 

But, I still have to pretend to my father that I am a born again Jewish believer. I have to remain ‘in the closet’ about it, if you will. As he preaches around the house to everyone in the family about how the world is going to end tomorrow and Jesus is coming soon, and how we’ll all be raptured up within the next 2 years or something (he has been constantly saying this for the last 10 years, but he just doesn’t realize it), and every year to him is going to be the year Jesus comes… in the meantime, I have to be a yes-man. Even the most minor things I hear my parents say irritate me to death, and i've been told that I stress too much over what they say, but absurdity drives me mad. Once I am leaving home and done my studies… I can’t wait to break the news, but that is years away.

 

But in the meantime, here I am typing this while I have Moonlight Sonata playing in my itunes in the background.

 

I just needed to get this out to a group or community that may understand where I am coming from. I just really fear what I may do in the future if I continue to let this hate and irritation I have towards my father bottle up inside of me. I could probably make this post as large as the bible if I really described everything in detail, as there is so much more I could say about this, but I will leave it at that…

 

If you have come this far in reading my post, I must thank you. I’ll save my de-conversion story for another post, as this is more of an ‘I need to talk to someone’ post. My de-conversion story shouldn’t be nearly as long, as I’ll just be a bit more general about the emotional stuff and more detailed about what specific things in science that I’ve learned in my studies that just don’t add up with the bible.

 

Looking forward to posting more on this forum and discussing all kinds of things with you fascinating people!

 

Moonlight Sonata… such a beautiful piece of music…

[FiddlingAround]

Hello and welcome, Dan! This is indeed a great place to vent and find understanding listeners, and I do think it will help you some in tolerating your insane and controlling parents.

 

My advice, though: Get out of that house! Yes, their financial support makes it easier to go to school, but it is not the only way. You're ex-military, so there should be some financial help for you from that source. You could get a job for a few years and save money. Hell, even taking out loans would be better than the situation you're in now, because right now you're trading control of your life, your non-family relationships and your sanity for a little emotional security. Even the worst loan has a better interest rate than that. From the sound of it, your family's degree of manipulation is inappropriate at any age, let alone now that you're an adult.

 

I would even go so far as to encourage you to cut off all contact with your parents. It sounds as though they have some serious, diagnosable mental issues that would rule out any possibility of a non-destructive relationship.

[DirtbagDan]

Hello and welcome, Dan! This is indeed a great place to vent and find understanding listeners, and I do think it will help you some in tolerating your insane and controlling parents.

 

My advice, though: Get out of that house! Yes, their financial support makes it easier to go to school, but it is not the only way. You're ex-military, so there should be some financial help for you from that source. You could get a job for a few years and save money. Hell, even taking out loans would be better than the situation you're in now, because right now you're trading control of your life, your non-family relationships and your sanity for a little emotional security. Even the worst loan has a better interest rate than that. From the sound of it, your family's degree of manipulation is inappropriate at any age, let alone now that you're an adult.

 

I would even go so far as to encourage you to cut off all contact with your parents. It sounds as though they have some serious, diagnosable mental issues that would rule out any possibility of a non-destructive relationship.

 

Hi, thanks for the warm welcome! I have considered everything you have mentioned and I ALMOST moved out in March (a month after everything happened) but I didn't end up landing a good paying job I was trying to get. If I had gotten it, I would be out on my own by now.

 

But, I don't have much longer to wait out if I do stick around at home, I am trying to blow through my undergraduate studies in 2 and a half years instead of 4. After that if I get an intership in medical school, i'll be out. In any case, as soon as I do end up on my own no matter when, I plan to cut off all contact with parents.

 

I forgot to mention this in my ridiculously long post, but at one point I had even contemplated leaving everything here behind to start a new life by enlisting in the French Foreign Legion.

[FiddlingAround]

The French Foreign Legion? Now there's a more creative than usual thought for escape!

 

Well, in that case, hang in there, keep looking for a job to get you out on your own, and keep posting here as much as you need to keep your sanity.

[DirtbagDan]

Yes, I started doing alot of research on the FFL (French Foreign Legion), but it is something that really should be an absolute LAST resort. I would have to have no opportunities left and nothing left in order to actually go and do that. They will only accept people in pisitions like that anyhow, but it was something I was seriously considering. Even the way you enlist is literally leaving everything behind You basically pack a bag with some spare underwear, toothbrush, deodorant and soap. Catch a plane flight to France, take a train to Aubagne and show up at the front gates of the FFL headquarters, and in you go. If you don't make it they boot you out on the street and tell you to go home; if you make it in, you immediately begin a 5 year contract, you change your name and identity should you require it, you are given a new bank account, and all your on-person property is taken from you until you have completed your training, and then start your training, of which no contact with the outside world is permitted for your first 5 months.

 

To do that, I really need to be at the bottom of the barrel in my life and really have no other options left. I like to think logically instead of emotionally whenever possible .

 

In the meantime, yes I am still looking for a better paying job right now (my current job pays very well but it isn't steady and consistent enough to support myself on my own). Plus it's good to have an online community here to help with kind words at least.

[Guest Davka]

Shalom, Daniel!

 

You have found a safe place to unload. This board is full of all sorts of people who have gone through the difficult process of realizing that there's no god, no heaven, no hell, no jesus. Many have very, very difficult family situations such as you describe. We can relate, in one way or another.

 

I agree with Fidling's first thought - get out of your parent's home if you possibly can. Not the Foreign Legion, but simply a better job and a home of your own, even if it means sharing with other impoverished young'uns.

 

I was also very much part of the Messianic scene, although from a somewhat different perspective. My wife was raised in Israel - we met when both of us were neo-hippies in California (her after military service in the IDF), and a few years later we went through nearly simultaneous conversions to Christianity. Her Judaism drew us to the Messianic scene, and after a couple years we made aliyah together, back to Israel for her and immigration for me. We were part of a Hebrew-speaking Messianic congregation there for almost 7 years. We raised our daughters as Messianic Jews as best as we knew how.

 

Luckily we both woke up from the madness a year or so ago, and our kids have suffered little harm from their oddball upbringing. But I understand the Messianic scene quite well, if you need someone to vent to about all the wannabe Jewish goyim or the ultra-orthodox Evangelical fundys with yarmulkes.

 

Welcome to the site. We serve shrimp, bacon, and cheese steak nightly.

[greenhunter]

Yes, I started doing alot of research on the FFL (French Foreign Legion), but it is something that really should be an absolute LAST resort. I would have to have no opportunities left and nothing left in order to actually go and do that. They will only accept people in pisitions like that anyhow, but it was something I was seriously considering. Even the way you enlist is literally leaving everything behind You basically pack a bag with some spare underwear, toothbrush, deodorant and soap. Catch a plane flight to France, take a train to Aubagne and show up at the front gates of the FFL headquarters, and in you go. If you don't make it they boot you out on the street and tell you to go home; if you make it in, you immediately begin a 5 year contract, you change your name and identity should you require it, you are given a new bank account, and all your on-person property is taken from you until you have completed your training, and then start your training, of which no contact with the outside world is permitted for your first 5 months.

 

To do that, I really need to be at the bottom of the barrel in my life and really have no other options left. I like to think logically instead of emotionally whenever possible .

 

In the meantime, yes I am still looking for a better paying job right now (my current job pays very well but it isn't steady and consistent enough to support myself on my own). Plus it's good to have an online community here to help with kind words at least.

 

yeah that should be a very last minute absolute decision. i'm in the same situation as you, i plan on leaving the home after i get enough money saved up and looking to move out of the state, i feel that i i need something new. maybe vancouver canada?? or just washington state.

[John09]

Dan, I'm very sorry you are going through all this. In answer to one of your questions, yes, religion does cause divisions and strife much of the time. I have been in Messianic circles just a little, but I have had my share of time with the whole demon battling crowd. It is all complete nonsense. All it does is make people feel super-spiritual, arrogant, know-it-alls.

 

I sure hope you are able to get out of that house. I know you will find relief in being separated from that kind of influence. You are a very wise and discerning man for your age. Keep using that head of yours, and you will be just fine.

[bird28]

I live with my believing (though non-church going) family right now and it's tough... heck, you don't know what madness is, I do cause I'm truly diagnosed... I even considered joining a scientific study that would take me off my meds and study what happens to me brain when that happens and I would be locked up in a hospital for half a year, that's how badly I don't want to be here.

 

But anyway, it sounds like a much more abusive situation than I am in... can you stay with a friend or something? Get away from there!

[florduh]

Hello and welcome.

 

Religion is a negative influence and can certainly take a toll in families. Your situation is far beyond that - your father is certifiable.

 

Get out now. There are other ways to achieve your goals without the financial support of a madman. FFL is a shitty option, however.

 

Look for a few roommates, decent part time job, student loans and any scholarship money you can muster. You can get where you want to go without the crazy man. Others have done it.

 

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[CelticWhisper]

I agree with Florduh. Parental support isn't the only way to get through college, and as much as I value education, it's not worth the price of your sanity. Get out ASAP - make it priority one, just below food, water, and...well, I guess it could be part of "shelter."

 

And make sure that once you do move out, you don't promise ANYTHING in the way of being accessible to your family. Don't let them know your schedule, don't give them any hint on how to tell whether you're home or not, and definitely don't give them any keys to your home. Having roommates may help in this respect, as they can support you and say "hey, our house too, tough shit, get lost." Be firm - once you have your own home, it is YOUR home and the law will be on your side if they persist in coming by or calling once you've asked them not to.

 

And it must be forewarned - be prepared for fallout, possibly on a catastrophic and unrecoverable scale. If your father is as batshit insane as he's sounding from your accounts and reacts the way he does to you going on a simple date, you can probably imagine his reaction to you leaving and all his control vanishing before his eyes. Be prepared for emotional manipulation. Be prepared for petty name-calling. Be prepared for proclamations of gloom and doom. And be prepared for more "cut off" talk. Of course, that last bit is rather empty since once you're out on your own, it's you cutting them off just as much as them cutting you off, so you can throw that one back in his face a bit.

 

Depending on how vengeful you are (I'm very much so, but I know I'm in the minority), you can use potential grandchildren as a bargaining chip to get them to back off. I don't know what your plans are regarding having kids, but that doesn't matter as much as the assumption on your parents' part (most parents do make this assumption) that you will indeed have them and that they will get to play the role of grandparents. Threaten to take it away. "Yeah, I'll have kids. You'll have grandkids, but you'll never, ever know them, and they'll never know your name or anything about you other than what a miserable person you are if you don't back off right now." Of course, it might be inadvisable to threaten that if you're planning on keeping the grandkids from them anyway, but that's something only you can determine.

 

Bottom line, however, is that you need to get out of that house pronto. Don't wait, don't delay, don't say "just one more (semester|month|year)," get out as soon as you're financially able to do so.

[DirtbagDan]

Shalom, Daniel!

 

You have found a safe place to unload. This board is full of all sorts of people who have gone through the difficult process of realizing that there's no god, no heaven, no hell, no jesus. Many have very, very difficult family situations such as you describe. We can relate, in one way or another.

 

I agree with Fidling's first thought - get out of your parent's home if you possibly can. Not the Foreign Legion, but simply a better job and a home of your own, even if it means sharing with other impoverished young'uns.

 

I was also very much part of the Messianic scene, although from a somewhat different perspective. My wife was raised in Israel - we met when both of us were neo-hippies in California (her after military service in the IDF), and a few years later we went through nearly simultaneous conversions to Christianity. Her Judaism drew us to the Messianic scene, and after a couple years we made aliyah together, back to Israel for her and immigration for me. We were part of a Hebrew-speaking Messianic congregation there for almost 7 years. We raised our daughters as Messianic Jews as best as we knew how.

 

Luckily we both woke up from the madness a year or so ago, and our kids have suffered little harm from their oddball upbringing. But I understand the Messianic scene quite well, if you need someone to vent to about all the wannabe Jewish goyim or the ultra-orthodox Evangelical fundys with yarmulkes.

 

Welcome to the site. We serve shrimp, bacon, and cheese steak nightly.

 

Ah excellent! I didn't think there were any others here who came from the same background as me. I thought this place was predominantly occupied with just straight out Christians, but I guess there are some of us former messianic Jews around here. I'm glad you've left it because perhaps the extreme Messianic Jews are far worse than the extreme Christians (they're all pretty much the same anyways). I love my shrimp and bacon!!

 

But the real big problem here now is that not only do I get all the ridiculousness about Jesus, the rapture, being saved, etc. from my parents, I ALSO get the whole deal about how Jews are superior to Goyim, how I shouldn't have anything to do with them, and how I should do everything the Jewish way, and so on and so forth. God, it really irritates me SO MUCH when I think about that! It's no different than Hitler telling everyone that the Aryan race is far more superior than everyone else! It's a mirror image!

 

 

I agree with Florduh. Parental support isn't the only way to get through college, and as much as I value education, it's not worth the price of your sanity. Get out ASAP - make it priority one, just below food, water, and...well, I guess it could be part of "shelter."

 

And make sure that once you do move out, you don't promise ANYTHING in the way of being accessible to your family. Don't let them know your schedule, don't give them any hint on how to tell whether you're home or not, and definitely don't give them any keys to your home. Having roommates may help in this respect, as they can support you and say "hey, our house too, tough shit, get lost." Be firm - once you have your own home, it is YOUR home and the law will be on your side if they persist in coming by or calling once you've asked them not to.

 

And it must be forewarned - be prepared for fallout, possibly on a catastrophic and unrecoverable scale. If your father is as batshit insane as he's sounding from your accounts and reacts the way he does to you going on a simple date, you can probably imagine his reaction to you leaving and all his control vanishing before his eyes. Be prepared for emotional manipulation. Be prepared for petty name-calling. Be prepared for proclamations of gloom and doom. And be prepared for more "cut off" talk. Of course, that last bit is rather empty since once you're out on your own, it's you cutting them off just as much as them cutting you off, so you can throw that one back in his face a bit.

 

Depending on how vengeful you are (I'm very much so, but I know I'm in the minority), you can use potential grandchildren as a bargaining chip to get them to back off. I don't know what your plans are regarding having kids, but that doesn't matter as much as the assumption on your parents' part (most parents do make this assumption) that you will indeed have them and that they will get to play the role of grandparents. Threaten to take it away. "Yeah, I'll have kids. You'll have grandkids, but you'll never, ever know them, and they'll never know your name or anything about you other than what a miserable person you are if you don't back off right now." Of course, it might be inadvisable to threaten that if you're planning on keeping the grandkids from them anyway, but that's something only you can determine.

 

Bottom line, however, is that you need to get out of that house pronto. Don't wait, don't delay, don't say "just one more (semester|month|year)," get out as soon as you're financially able to do so.

 

Hahah.... you think much like me, my friend.

 

I already have the grandchildren issue covered as a way to get back at my father... I just didn't mention it in my first post because I may come off as cruel, lol. But, you already mentioned it so why not. I made a decision a while ago that I won't be having children and that I plan on telling that straight to my father's face at some point in the future, and if by some chance I end up changing my mind about it in the future, I certainly won't be letting them anywhere near their grandparents. I won't give my father the satisfaction of carrying everything he did with me over to them.

 

Things have been complicated concerning moving out and i'm always on the prowl to find a better paying job so I can make it the hell out of here. As I said, I was inches away from getting a good paying job only weeks after the whole ordeal happened back in Feburary but it I didn't end up getting the job for a really really funny reason. But in any case, I won't be giving up at all... i'm still trying to find a way.

[Loren]

Welcome, Dan.

 

I agree with almost all of what the others have said.

 

One of the things I thought of while reading your post was that there's a commonly unrecognized attribute of folks who go through situations like yours, and that is that the whole experience is a toughening up exercise which, while it may be horribly unpleasant, is something that will strengthen you. Emotionally, socially, it's like doing long hours of intensely heavy physical work: Whether you enjoy the work or hate the work, the final result is that the work will make you strong. All the strength you've already developed and will further develop as well as all the things you learn about human nature and social dynamics will serve you well as you go through life.

 

You may be able to make a very clearly deliberate choice on what kind of attitude with which you approach this situation. Even though you certainly are a victim in this (Along with the rest of your family and probably every one else who interacts with your father.), you can still choose whether to have the attitude of victim-hood or the attitude of a warrior, much like going through boot camp where it's clearly understood that the point of it isn't fairness or niceness, but training and strengthening.

 

I'd also like to say that I'm impressed with your intelligence and literacy. Not only does your writing reflect care for the quality of what you put out, but extremely good ability as well. I noticed that this is also reflected in your theological thinking.

 

You seem very capable to me.

 

Loren

[DirtbagDan]

Welcome, Dan.

 

I agree with almost all of what the others have said.

 

One of the things I thought of while reading your post was that there's a commonly unrecognized attribute of folks who go through situations like yours, and that is that the whole experience is a toughening up exercise which, while it may be horribly unpleasant, is something that will strengthen you. Emotionally, socially, it's like doing long hours of intensely heavy physical work: Whether you enjoy the work or hate the work, the final result is that the work will make you strong. All the strength you've already developed and will further develop as well as all the things you learn about human nature and social dynamics will serve you well as you go through life.

 

You may be able to make a very clearly deliberate choice on what kind of attitude with which you approach this situation. Even though you certainly are a victim in this (Along with the rest of your family and probably every one else who interacts with your father.), you can still choose whether to have the attitude of victim-hood or the attitude of a warrior, much like going through boot camp where it's clearly understood that the point of it isn't fairness or niceness, but training and strengthening.

 

I'd also like to say that I'm impressed with your intelligence and literacy. Not only does your writing reflect care for the quality of what you put out, but extremely good ability as well. I noticed that this is also reflected in your theological thinking.

 

You seem very capable to me.

 

Loren

 

Thank you, Loren.

 

Everything you have said has made sense and all of it is true for me. After what happened 6 months ago, I really don't feel any fear for what my father may pull on me in the future. I've thrown out the fears that came with being a born again believer, which came with my de-conversion process anyhow. These fears are what my father uses (and has used) to induce fear and intimidate myself and others into toeing in line with him. Of course, it is what the church and religion as a whole uses to manipulate people. I feel as though anything my father will attempt on me in the future will bounce off me like water off a duck's back. It very much is like going through bootcamp, and my years in the military have taught me much about the way people function.

 

But there is one thing you mentioned that you are absolutely correct about:

 

You may be able to make a very clearly deliberate choice on what kind of attitude with which you approach this situation. Even though you certainly are a victim in this (Along with the rest of your family and probably every one else who interacts with your father.)

 

Ohh boy.... This is a very key point you make. I have a couple other stories (including something that is currently ongoing) that you and other forum members here may be interested in hearing about. My father indeed has cut off ties and ruined relationships with other family members... so, this is not an isolated incident here concerning what he has done with me. Just let me know if you'd like to hear some more (I will be sure to keep it much shorter than my original post, lol), and I will be glad to tell you all. Infact, it would be good for me as I would appreciate some 3rd party objective input on it.

[Loren]

My father indeed has cut off ties and ruined relationships with other family members... so, this is not an isolated incident here concerning what he has done with me. Just let me know if you'd like to hear some more (I will be sure to keep it much shorter than my original post, lol), and I will be glad to tell you all. Infact, it would be good for me as I would appreciate some 3rd party objective input on it.

Sure, let's hear it! One of the things I've seen is that generally, in situations where one family member, particularly an authority figure like a father, has alienated a significant number of family members, it creates a de facto support group aligned against that person. I'm sure that whether that's the case in your family or not will become clear in what you tell us about it.

 

Humans can sure be virtuosos at foolishly undermining themselves. Your dad seems to be focused entirely on consolidating his power with absolutely no thought to anything else. Military history shows time and again that such a strategic one-trick-pony rarely succeeds in doing anything but getting themselves (And their followers) into deep shit. He seems to have no thought for ramifications or social consequences. Once he's alienated or disowned the last available family member, what does he expect to do when he's old, infirm and very dependent on the good will of others?

 

Oh, that's right. Jesus will return long before that happens, which will make entertaining such thoughts not just a moot point, but such a sign of lack of faith as to be a slap in God's face. The guy has obviously not taken a truly close look at the progression of the Apostle Paul's attitude toward the return of Jesus.

 

And by the way, thank you for serving!

[DirtbagDan]

Excellent, well, I guess I should start off with what is currently ongoing, but i'll explain the backstory behind it first.

 

I have an uncle whom I am very close with. This uncle is not related by blood, but related through marriage; he is an brother in-law of my father (my mother's sister's husband), and not his direct blood brother. I am very close with him, and we do many things together (he introduced me to golf about 5 or 6 years ago or so), and one of the most prominent and important things we do together is study science and math. You see, he is a retired highschool math teacher. When I finished highschool, I really had no idea of where I was to go or what I was going to study - my primary interests were history and politics and I wanted to study such things, but, as the realistic and logical person I am, I thought about the future possibilities of directing one or all of those subjects into a career, and I came to the decision that there isn't much one can do with those things. My military career at the time was going farther off the map than I originally planned, and it wasn't a possibility to go further in that. During my final year in the military, I regained a renewed interest in fitness, exercise, and bodybuilding. This lead to a brand new enlightened path for me that created an insatiable hunger for more knowlege of science and everything related to it. After searching for what I specifically wanted to study dive head-on into, after 2 years of taking time off from school after highschool to figure out what I want to study, I came to the decision I wanted to enter the field of medicine and science. Henceforth, that was my goal, and it was a complete 180 degree turn from what my original interests were coming out of highschool. However, my background knowlege on such things, though it was growing, was not yet what I required to enter these studies in university, and this is where my uncle began to play an immensely important role in the grand scheme of this.

 

Approximately 2 and a half to 3 years ago (I can't remember the specific timeline), he began to visit me 3 times a week for approximately 2-3 hours at a time to teach me from the ground up, everything I needed to know (and then some) about every single subject in science and math to prepare me. And he did this (and is still doing this) for free. In a nutshell, that wraps up the studying aspect of it all. My uncle was born and raised Jewish, though I don't know anything about his childhood, he is not very religious and is quite secular (believes in evolution and so forth), and, though I do not know if this is true, my father states that my uncle has said he "hates" anybody who believes in the bible or such things though I personally believe my father is exaggerating/stretching whatever my uncle may have said. In any case, my uncle is quite a fun person to be around, though I believe something occurred in his childhood/young years (I had heard his father physically abused him) that does cause him to have a short fuse when encountering things that may irritate him (I have observed this). He and I see eye to eye on many, many things. We both believe in evolution, we both believe that there is a God that ultimately created everything (though we don't believe it is the type of God everyone says it is *cough*CHRISTIANITY-AND-RELIGION-IN-GENERAL*COUGH*), we both become very very irritated with superstitious beliefs spouted by others, and we both are very very irritated by pseudoscience, etc. However, we both differ in the sense that I tend to speak out and challenge people more about these things when I encounter them, and he tends to remain silent (I assume due to the fact that he can get carried away in the heat of arguement).

 

Approximately 2 months ago, on a Saturday, my uncle was over visiting so that we could study some microbiology together. On that Saturday in the morning around 11:30 he arrived, we studied for 2 hours, and then our family ate together (as we normally would do up to that day). When I was done, around about 2:00 I had left to go to the gym for a workout and arrived back home at about 3:45 and upon walking in through the front door, the look on my father, my mother, and my uncle's face was strange, and there was an awry feeling in the air. I knew something had gone wrong while I was away, and I already had a general idea of what it was. According to my father and mother's account of what happened, I left the house to go to the gym. While I was gone, my parents and my uncle were having a conversation in the kitchen about whether or not children with single parents, and whether or not children with homosexual parents grow up to become fine like regular parented children. I don't need to expound on what my father's views were on the subject, as you can guess. My uncle's opinion was one of scientific inquiry (conduct double-blind studies on the different parental groups and then analyze results before coming to conclusions, etc.). In any case, the conversation apparently shifted towards homosexuality in general and the conversation was apparently heated. My uncle asked a question about homosexuality (I can't remember what I was told the question was) to my father, and my father replied with: "If my children ever come home with a homosexual lover, I would condemn them, I would not support them and they would not recieve my blessing". At which point my uncle stood up and apparently said to my father: "I'm sorry, but you're a bigot". Several more words were exchanged between them - I can’t remember what - and shortly after, I walked through the door.

 

My father has continued to allow my uncle to visit so that we can study, but whenever he comes over, my father avoids him like the plague and refuses to be in the same room as him at all. We have had several occasions where our family was invited to family and friend get-togethers where my uncle was there - my father remained home while my mother, my brother and I went. For 4 weeks after that incident, all I constantly heard my father talk with my mother about was what happened, and how my uncle is an 'amoral good for nothing', a 'heathen sociopath', blah blah BLAH! I'd also like to note that my father has had previous problems with this uncle. My uncle has no idea of any of this, though i'm sure he suspects something (after all, he has not seen my father in 2 months since what happened, despite visiting our house 3 times a week!). However, this is still not over, and the worst is yet to come. This coming October marks the end of my uncle studying with me. Come October, my father plans to cut my uncle off completely from our family and is telling all of us not to have anything to do with him. If and when that happens, that is probably when i'll plan on leaving on my own for good. There must be something very wrong with someone to not even want to be in the same room as another person just for one word that was uttered during a conversation. I've had people and friends say such things to me before, and I just laugh it off...

 

I've got many similar stories to this. I haven't seen another uncle (my father's brother) or my cousins in 5 years because something happened between those two as well.

 

I thought the Bible was supposed to teach tolerance? Hah!

[HRDWarrior]

I can't really give you any advice, as I have just "come out" to my mother myself. I tried to gloss over it, but she's already freaking out, so although I don't have experience that I can offer you (yet ) I will add in some support as you struggle through all of this. My mother is also wonderful with manipulation, lectures, guilt trips...the whole nine yards, so I do understand what it's like.

 

As others have said, I would recommend getting out of there ASAP - it does't solve all the problems, but it helps a LOT...at the very least, phones can be turned off and if you're far enough away someone can't just drive on over to harass you all night!

[Raul]

I thought the Bible was supposed to teach tolerance? Hah!

Nah,the book that suggests killing witches,homosexuals and followers of other religions isn't really a good guide to tolerance. Sorry to disappoint ya.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I was not brought up Messianic, but for a shortish while my mom dated one and it was very... interesting? Heh, I was 16-17 and already didn't believe in God so the whole day long Saturday Church thing was super fun [sarcasm]. And my brother, 3 years younger, is a complete follower of my dad's conservative Church of Christ and so thought the whole thing was evil and fought about it with my mom. I was smart enough to just stay quiet and deal with it. Their synagogue didn't seem too super conservative, but at the same time had strict rules about random things. They were more like Christian with a dash of Jewish - especially since the vast majority of them were not ethnically Jewish.

 

At this point I was studying pagan religions and had (still have) a pentagram necklace I always wore. It was like my silent disagreement with what my family believed. My parents had the sense to ignore it, but my mom's boyfriend could not. He told my mom that I was channeling spirits into the house, having lesbian sex with my best friend and that I had caused a demon to possess my younger brother. My mom is normally fairly intelligent, but she really liked this guy and so it was pretty tense for a while. But they broke up (cause he's psycho - duh!) and it all went back to normal.

 

Your situation - far far worse than most I have read about. I moved out of my parents house at 18, lived with between 3 and 6 people in a one bedroom apartment, went to school and work by taking 2 hour bus. It sucked a lot, but I am glad I did it. Its kind of fun in a horrible way . I was also thinking, maybe you could move in with family, like your uncle, especially if you have a job and can pay them some rent it could work out. It would sure piss off your dad . Even when parents aren't as bad as yours, there's nothing like the freedom of your own place.

 

I do sympathize with your situation with the school help. Play it safe if it means enough to you, but maybe try to figure out how you can afford it without them. I guess you are anyway. Sorry the military didn't work out for you; my husband is in right now and he seems to enjoy it thus far. It is giving him time to figure out what he wants to do with his life and that's what is most important.

[Astreja]

Welcome, Dan!

 

I strongly advise that you pursue your exit strategy using a variation on the "safety plan" used by people in abusive relationships -- Because your father's treatment of you is most certainly abusive.

 

In a nutshell: Separate your finances from theirs to the fullest extent possible; get copies of important documents such as your birth certificate, school transcripts, and bank statements, and keep them in a safety deposit box that your parents cannot access; move any keepsakes to a safe place outside the house; and above all, do not tell them that you're planning to leave. Just go, and decide later if you want to have contact with them. After all they've put you through, you don't even owe them an explanation.

 

(And don't forget to clear your browser history if you share a computer with anyone in the family, too.)

 

If you do get into virus research, consider the virology lab in Winnipeg as a potential workplace.

 

That is, if you can bear the thought of an annual 80-degree temperature range...

[PaulQ]

I don't mean to come off as offensive, but your posts are very long-winded and difficult to read. I quoted the first two paragraphs of one of your posts, and by simply removing a lot of redundant text, have reduced the amount one has to read considerably while retaining the original meaning:

 

Excellent. I'll explain the backstory behind it first.

 

I have an uncle, a brother in-law of my father, whom I am very close with. One of the most important things we do together is study science and math. He's a retired highschool math teacher. When I finished highschool, I had no idea of where I was to go or what I was going to study - my primary interests were history and politics, but, as the realistic person I am, I came to the decision that there isn't much one can do with those things. My military career at the time was going farther off the map than I originally planned, and it wasn't a possibility to go further. During my final year in the military, I regained a renewed interest in fitness. This lead to a brand new enlightened path for me that created an insatiable hunger for more knowlege of science and everything related to it. After 2 years of taking time off from school, I came to the decision I wanted to enter the field of medicine and science. Henceforth, that was my goal, and it was a complete 180 degree turn from what my original interests were. However, my background knowlege on such things was not yet what I required to enter these studies in university, and this is where my uncle began to play an immensely important role.

 

Approximately 3 years ago, he began to visit me 3 times a week for approximately 2-3 hours at a time to teach me everything I needed to know about every single subject in science and math for free. My uncle was born and raised Jewish, though I don't know anything about his childhood, he is not very religious and is quite secular, and my father states that my uncle has said he "hates" anybody who believes in the bible or such things (I believe my father is exaggerating whatever my uncle said). My uncle is a fun person to be around, though I believe something occurred in his childhood that does cause him to have a short fuse when encountering things that may irritate him (I had heard his father physically abused him). He and I see eye to eye on many things. We both believe in evolution, we both believe that there is a God that ultimately created everything (though we don't believe it is the type of God everyone says it is *cough*CHRISTIANITY-AND-RELIGION-IN-GENERAL*COUGH*), we both become very very irritated with superstitious beliefs spouted by others, and we both are very very irritated by pseudoscience, etc. However, we both differ in the sense that I tend to speak out and challenge people more about these things when I encounter them, and he tends to remain silent (I assume due to the fact that he can get carried away in the heat of arguement).

 

I'm sure that your text could be condensed further, but that would require a rewrite. What you'll want to do the next time you post a message is to re-read what you typed, and do some self-editing before hitting the "Post" button. As it is, I simply cannot read everything you wrote. It's just too much work!

[★ Citsonga ★]

Wow, Dan. I thought my dad was overbearing, but it seems that your dad makes my dad look easy going. I can't imagine the pain you're going through.

 

Why, if the bible Is the infallible word of God, doesn’t the bible tell us about how the world works? Why doesn’t it tell us about protons and electrons? Micro molecules? Macromolecules such as proteins, carbohydrates, and fats? Cells? Hormones? Instead all we get in the bible is a bunch of cacophony, strange allegories, and spook stories. I’m sorry, but if the almighty creator is the creator a specific religion tells me is written in their book (the Bible in this case), then why didn’t the creator tell us the mechanics of our world instead to be written in this bible instead of how we, over the previous 200+ years, have had to figure it all out ourselves? It would have saved mankind a lot of time! Why do we get these haunted house spook stories instead? Because it is all man-made. I thought all of these things and more in the span of 6 or so minutes on that rainy late afternoon in early March on the side of the road.

 

Here's a video you will probably enjoy:

 

[DirtbagDan]

Welcome, Dan!

 

I strongly advise that you pursue your exit strategy using a variation on the "safety plan" used by people in abusive relationships -- Because your father's treatment of you is most certainly abusive.

 

In a nutshell: Separate your finances from theirs to the fullest extent possible; get copies of important documents such as your birth certificate, school transcripts, and bank statements, and keep them in a safety deposit box that your parents cannot access; move any keepsakes to a safe place outside the house; and above all, do not tell them that you're planning to leave. Just go, and decide later if you want to have contact with them. After all they've put you through, you don't even owe them an explanation.

 

(And don't forget to clear your browser history if you share a computer with anyone in the family, too.)

 

If you do get into virus research, consider the virology lab in Winnipeg as a potential workplace.

 

That is, if you can bear the thought of an annual 80-degree temperature range...

 

Oh yes, all of that is taken care of. I am in full control of my finances and personal documents.

 

Your mention of the lab in Winnipeg, i've looked into that actually. There is also a Biosafety Level 3 lab in BC as well (but it's only level 3, and it's my absolute dream to work in a level 4 lab). But what I would like to ultimately do is work at a virology lab in Germany, as Europe is the place to be for medical and science research (North America is lagging far behind the rest of the world in that). Not to mention it would get me as far away as possible from my parents, which I promised myself I would do. They are xenophobes too and hate travelling to other countries.

 

Citsonga, thanks for that link, that was excellent!

[ShallowByThyGame]

It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.

 

Tear down the walls and build them back up on your own terms.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Citsonga, thanks for that link, that was excellent!

 

You're quite welcome. I figured you'd enjoy that one.