♦ nivek ♦ Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 In a discussion with a number of fundmetalists over at subguns.com. Subject of "christian nation"-Founders intended it to be. Even after a dozen and a half direct quotes by Geo. Washington and his peers concerning his Dieism, and page after page of reference, thye continue to toss things like this back up at me. I don't yet have the books that are footnoted at the URL in the below article. Nowhere can I find any direct reference to g. Washington speaking to the Deleware Tribes like this... My need is: Does this quote exist as a real text, attributable to Washington himself? TIA kL While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington's response, he first told them that "Congress... will look on them as on their own children." [4] That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision: You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention. [4] According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools "above all" was "the religion of Jesus Christ." from here http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanInPA Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Nivek, Here are two articles from the front page of ExC: The Founding Fathers - Christian? And George Washington - The Vestryman Who Was Not A Communicant You may have already read them, but if not check 'em out. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Nivek, I'm not a US history major so this is just a guess. Washington probably did make the above statement. It was fairly common practice among colonialists to force the "heathen" into christianity. This way they could assure a quasi assimilation and thus avoid native unrest. It also pacified them so that the natives would do their bidding. The Brits did this all across Africa for example. Washington a deist, was also very much likely a political pragmatist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools "above all" was "the religion of Jesus Christ." Even if that were true, it would seem our Founding Fathers may have disagreed on some things...if this is true that is. Also I find it kinda fishy that the Constitution and Bill of Rights do not in any way reflect this notion of the importance of jesus christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted August 22, 2005 Author Share Posted August 22, 2005 Even if that were true, it would seem our Founding Fathers may have disagreed on some things...if this is true that is. Also I find it kinda fishy that the Constitution and Bill of Rights do not in any way reflect this notion of the importance of jesus christ. d_c... the facts about Geo. Washington and the bulk of the Founders is clear. However trying to get them to see so is hard to do. It quickly became a *religious argument* rather than an historical one. Gonna take a bit longer in this discussion than I figured.. Went to ILL, Interlibrary Loan, these books as mentioned there at the xtian webpage. All but ONE are Reference materials in the systems we use. Put out call and told Libraries I would gladly bond for the use of the books with my 50k usd bond (used for business), or pay to have the sections in question, and the flycovers photocopied and notarized. Waiting for answer on that... kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 The question of which religion the founding fathers were and whether or not they intended the US to be a Christian nation are not the same. The founding fathers, christian or not, realised that in order for liberty to triumph, freedom of religion must be a factor in the founding of a nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted August 22, 2005 Author Share Posted August 22, 2005 The question of which religion the founding fathers were and whether or not they intended the US to be a Christian nation are not the same. The founding fathers, christian or not, realised that in order for liberty to triumph, freedom of religion must be a factor in the founding of a nation. True.. Problem is, I have *one quote* now, allegedly by Geo. Washington, that I need to find foundation and context for. Did he indeed say this? Is this another legend? Or is it another context ruined quote made to sound good for the xtian cause? Washington's Prayer is a good example of what had become popular historical-legend. Half truths and the body of what G. Washington said, was recorded as saying and authored are now mixed with sectarian bullshavings.. All the makings of an urban hoax.. I gotta be damn careful in this research as I've hung my big ass out far with this. Told man I'd give him a researched answer ASAP. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 niv, links for you Washington Quotes this is from the wikipedia entry: "and a letter to the leaders of Native American communities in Delaware: (ostensibilty proselytizing) "You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." from: George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 55. Response:Many of these Delaware Indians chiefs were already Christian. The Delawares (Lenapes) were among the few Indian tribes NOT fighting against the colonists & for the British (who by Treaty of Paris (1763) had prohibited colonists from settling in Indian Territories). The Delawares were in trouble with other tribes & were (or would soon be)negotiating terms favorable to their resettlement (homes & church) further West. Washington was being diplomatic, passing responsibility to Congress, & complimenting on things they were already proud of. Many ended up mistakenly massacred by Pennsylvania militia in 1782. http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/ohc/hist.../delaware.shtml -- --JimWae 08:08, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC) " Washington - Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest God's Prosecutor Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Does this help, http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/washington/fitzpatrick/ or are you looking for the dead tree version? I did find the quote using the search function on that page, but I can't speak to the credibility of anything there. Just found it through google.... Why are you doing their research for them? P.S. The word "Jesus" is used just once in all 39 volumes. May not mean anything. I just thought it was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 d_c... the facts about Geo. Washington and the bulk of the Founders is clear. However trying to get them to see so is hard to do. It quickly became a *religious argument* rather than an historical one. Gonna take a bit longer in this discussion than I figured.. Went to ILL, Interlibrary Loan, these books as mentioned there at the xtian webpage. All but ONE are Reference materials in the systems we use. Put out call and told Libraries I would gladly bond for the use of the books with my 50k usd bond (used for business), or pay to have the sections in question, and the flycovers photocopied and notarized. Waiting for answer on that... kL <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The sad part is...I could see George Washington encouraging religion on "inferior" peoples. He never thought to highly of common men and figured religion was the answer to the crude and stupid. He was good enough not to be a xer but felt others needed religion to be good citizens, now whether or not he meant religion in general or just jesus christ I do not know. I think he meant religion in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaoi Huntress Earth Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 One thing I find very useful is how infulental the ancient Greeks\Romans were to our Founding Fathers. Democracy was a pegan ideal so I would sudjest looking up the Neo-Classical movement that so many of them embraced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffXL Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 An excellent resource for this is: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washframe.htm He actually cites his sources, and debunks spurious quotations. Hey, Christians lie all the time, why not also in this instance? The entire Positive Atheism site is breathtaking. I wonder if the Founders really would have instituted a Christian nation, wouldn't we still have kings and a state religion, just like Christian Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 An excellent resource for this is: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washframe.htm He actually cites his sources, and debunks spurious quotations. Hey, Christians lie all the time, why not also in this instance? The entire Positive Atheism site is breathtaking. I wonder if the Founders really would have instituted a Christian nation, wouldn't we still have kings and a state religion, just like Christian Europe? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for the link! Good point too! I think I remember some were that before the constitution was made that some even suggested George Washington be king or something. I still think the Founders had different opinions about religion and xianity whether they were xers or not. I think Jefferson's and Madison's opinions are what would be more representative of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. After all thier ideas were used in the Constitution and Bill of rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts