An Older Story

[Shyone]

I am a physician, and I “chose” that profession because my mother told me it was my mission from God. It is a good way to make a living and I enjoy what I do, so I don’t begrudge the push in that direction, and my interests in science made it a slam dunk to accomplish.

 

I used to be an acolyte in my Episcopalian church, and I was a Priest’s Server by the end of high school. I was attending church 3 times a Sunday as a member of the adult choir, director of the children’s choir, and acolyte. In my mid 30’s, I was elected to the vestry of my church.

 

All the while beginning at age 17, I had been reading and learning. I wasn’t trying to disprove God’s existence, I was trying to understand how things worked. I studied prophecy because I thought that would be the key to understanding the universe, but I found that Hal Lindsey had plucked verses out of context to make an end of the world prophecy. I studied other religions, I read the Bible, ancient history and texts, and finally realized that Yahweh was a Mesopotamian god wanna-be. Even much of the literature of the Bible was derived from ancient Sumerian, Babylonian and Egyptian texts, some of it almost word for word, and the pettiness and cruelty of God were horrifying and, to me at the time, unexpected. The New Testament does nothing to mitigate the problem. If Jesus were “prophesied” and prophecy was a Mesopotamian pastime with no validity, and the people in the New Testament relied on that, then Jesus was certainly not the Son of this nonexistent god. Jot and tiddle my ass. How do we “know” about God? The Bible. And the Bible was a derivative ancient religious text with no more authority than the Epic of Gilgamesh.

 

Even after all of the pieces of the puzzle were there from medicine, biochemistry, physics, paleontology, and many other disciplines, I still “believed” even though logically I knew there couldn’t be any supernatural god, until one day when I was sitting in the pew during a service and it just hit me: I am praying to no one, talking to myself, and there isn’t any being listening to me. I wanted to leave because I thought everyone might see that I didn’t believe any of it anymore.

 

I still attended church for another year because of my wife, but I felt like a total hypocrite. The epiphany was almost overwhelming; I wasn’t going to heaven, my mother is really dead, and there isn’t any being that is preventing me from screwing up. I was on my own. I couldn’t tell anyone including my wife. I could hardly believe it myself, but there was no doubt that I had established for myself that the God I had believed in doesn’t exist.

It has been 20 years since I left the church. The great irony is that I had been searching for God all along, and instead found that there was nothing behind the curtain but primitive superstition. I have continued to learn and study, and nothing I have learned has changed my conclusions. I was a poster on alt.atheism in the late 1990s (atheist # 1059), and my story is old, but the memories resonate with the “extimonies” of those posting here. I wish like hell (figuratively speaking) I had a place like this when I was searching for answers, but then I had to do the work myself. I probably wouldn’t have believed someone else’s assertion without having reviewed the evidence for myself, but it might have been easier, or maybe a little quicker. Or maybe I just wouldn’t have felt so alone.

[pitchu]

Welcome to the forums, Shyone.

 

A rigorous intellect like yours was bound to come to the place you found... where you discovered you were talking to yourself. I hope that even after twenty years of going it alone you'll find friendship and solace here.

[Shyone]

Welcome to the forums, Shyone.

 

A rigorous intellect like yours was bound to come to the place you found... where you discovered you were talking to yourself. I hope that even after twenty years of going it alone you'll find friendship and solace here.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I still have a lot of questions. This journey has been solitary for me, and even my wife is a believer of sorts. 20 years and I still have questions about other atheists. A lot of my questions are being answered by just reading the older "deconversion" extestimonies. It's as though my life story is in bits and pieces of each of their stories. I've never seen an internet site where people talk about what it was like. alt.atheism was a battleground; defending atheism and debunking theological concepts over and over again. There wasn't as much "community" as "anti-theology." If I never have to write about Pascal's Wager or Anselm's Ontologic argument again I'll be content.

[pitchu]

Yeah.

 

"... what it was like" is definitely one of the unique attributes of this site. I hope you keep discovering those bits and pieces which affirm for you that yours isn't an isolated experience.

[Autonomous]

Thanks for sharing your story, I found it especially encouraging to hear from someone who has been out of Christianity for so long, it is only 3 years for me and I still fear somehow being sucked back into it.

 

I too was delighted to find somewhere where people talk about what it feels like, I felt really alone before, and now I don't.

[Shyone]

Thanks for sharing your story, I found it especially encouraging to hear from someone who has been out of Christianity for so long, it is only 3 years for me and I still fear somehow being sucked back into it.

 

I too was delighted to find somewhere where people talk about what it feels like, I felt really alone before, and now I don't.

I'm glad you mentioned that. One of my most vexing questions has to do with recidivism. My experience was that after I had learned enough, there was no way I could ever "return" to Christianity (or the church). I can hardly believe that someone could consider believing in something that doesn't and cannot exist once they have realized this. If it does happen, then why (other than the emotional attachment to ones faith)? I suspect (and expect to be slammed for thinking this) that it depends on how and why one became an atheist.

 

Specifically, the gradual accrual of information in multiple fields that mutually reinforce the concept of a naturalistic universe was, for me, irreversible. An emotional revulsion to some aspects of religion might allow easier "return" to religion. For example, I read of a man whose children died in a fire. He said, "I can tell you this: God doesn't exist, or if He does, He doesn't care about us." The "conclusion" that God doesn't exist is not based on lengthy research, careful weighing of multiple arguments, and deliberation in this case, but rather an emotional response to a single event - although absolutely horrible.

 

One kind word might convince someone under similar circumstances that they were mistaken (e.g. "God's ways are mysterious"), and back to church s/he goes asking for God's forgiveness for doubting.

 

Am I way off track here? I swear I could not believe in Yahweh any more than I could believe in Kukulcan. It was a one way trip for me, and I need to understand. My simplistic assessment is based on practically nothing other than my own imagination, and I need to hear from some who have, or could, go back.

 

I'm not talking about those who left the fold, sinned, didn't think about God, and then returned to the flock (or someone who had a bad event, "hated God", and then regretted their thoughts). That's like someone that doesn't pay taxes. They may act like there is no government, but they still believe it exists.

[Loren]

Thanks for sharing your story, I found it especially encouraging to hear from someone who has been out of Christianity for so long, it is only 3 years for me and I still fear somehow being sucked back into it.

 

I too was delighted to find somewhere where people talk about what it feels like, I felt really alone before, and now I don't.

I'm glad you mentioned that. One of my most vexing questions has to do with recidivism. My experience was that after I had learned enough, there was no way I could ever "return" to Christianity (or the church). I can hardly believe that someone could consider believing in something that doesn't and cannot exist once they have realized this. If it does happen, then why (other than the emotional attachment to ones faith)? I suspect (and expect to be slammed for thinking this) that it depends on how and why one became an atheist.

 

Specifically, the gradual accrual of information in multiple fields that mutually reinforce the concept of a naturalistic universe was, for me, irreversible. An emotional revulsion to some aspects of religion might allow easier "return" to religion. For example, I read of a man whose children died in a fire. He said, "I can tell you this: God doesn't exist, or if He does, He doesn't care about us." The "conclusion" that God doesn't exist is not based on lengthy research, careful weighing of multiple arguments, and deliberation in this case, but rather an emotional response to a single event - although absolutely horrible.

 

One kind word might convince someone under similar circumstances that they were mistaken (e.g. "God's ways are mysterious"), and back to church s/he goes asking for God's forgiveness for doubting.

 

I checked and saw that you'd found the thread dealing with this specific issue in Ex-Christian Life. This is a question that comes up fairly regularly around here in various forms.

 

Am I way off track here? I swear I could not believe in Yahweh any more than I could believe in Kukulcan. It was a one way trip for me, and I need to understand. My simplistic assessment is based on practically nothing other than my own imagination, and I need to hear from some who have, or could, go back.

 

I'm not talking about those who left the fold, sinned, didn't think about God, and then returned to the flock (or someone who had a bad event, "hated God", and then regretted their thoughts). That's like someone that doesn't pay taxes. They may act like there is no government, but they still believe it exists.

 

Like you, I've been out for a while, and I've definitely noticed a direct causal relationship between the attitude with which a religious person approaches their religion and the way they deal with their deconversion. Of course, that seems like a, "Duh! No shit!" kind of conclusion, but just because something seems like an obvious correlation, that doesn't make it true. Years of observation, however, has shown it to be true. A shallow, self-serving Christian tends to be the same as an ex. A kind-hearted Christian tends to a kind-hearted ex. And a Christian who took their religion seriously enough to really study it tends to be the kind of person who refuses to varnish the truth of what they found.

 

The more work a person puts in to finding the truth, no matter what the consequences, the more clear it is to them on every level that they made the right decision in leaving the fold. I cant believe Christianity has any grip on truth any more than I'm able to believe that a fire hydrant is actually a ham sandwich. Even with a gun to my head, I couldn't make myself believe it.

 

I know too much, now. I know where the bodies are buried.

 

I don't think you're off track at all, as I'm sure you've noticed by now on that other thread. I just think that you're a true agnostic. You're not simply agnostic in the compartment of religion. You seem to me to be very like me in that you refuse to lie to yourself about knowing something which you know you don't know, no matter in what area of life you may be doing your thinking. It's a matter of wanting to avoid the foolishness of self-delusion in matters which may be extremely important as well as it being a matter of personal honor.

[Shyone]

<snip>

I know too much, now. I know where the bodies are buried.

 

Well put. Like the Easter joke; "Easter has been cancelled this year. They found the body."

 

I don't think you're off track at all, as I'm sure you've noticed by now on that other thread. I just think that you're a true agnostic. You're not simply agnostic in the compartment of religion. You seem to me to be very like me in that you refuse to lie to yourself about knowing something which you know you don't know, no matter in what area of life you may be doing your thinking. It's a matter of wanting to avoid the foolishness of self-delusion in matters which may be extremely important as well as it being a matter of personal honor.

Thank you so much for your kind words and understanding. You hit the nail on the head.

[noob]

Welcome, Shyone! I enjoyed reading your story and I could really relate to the “one day… it just hit me” part. It has not been a year since I had my “ah-ha” moment, and unlike you it was not the result of intensive study. I had always struggled to really believe and once I let my filter drop and saw how ridiculous the bible and the god of the bible were, I was relieved to walk away. I cannot imagine anything that would convince me to return to actually believing.

 

Again, welcome! It’s nice to have you here.

[Shyone]

Welcome, Shyone! I enjoyed reading your story and I could really relate to the “one day… it just hit me” part. It has not been a year since I had my “ah-ha” moment, and unlike you it was not the result of intensive study. I had always struggled to really believe and once I let my filter drop and saw how ridiculous the bible and the god of the bible were, I was relieved to walk away. I cannot imagine anything that would convince me to return to actually believing.

 

Again, welcome! It’s nice to have you here.

Thanks! I still can't believe I took so damned long! I had the facts right before me, and any single line of reasoning lead to the same conclusion - that there could be no God. But I believed anyway.

 

I didn't even want to deconvert. It was the inevitable outcome of all of the work that I had done, and it snuck up on me.

 

The one time God goes "poof" and it's to disappear.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I didn't even want to deconvert. It was the inevitable outcome of all of the work that I had done, and it snuck up on me.

 

Same here. The only worldview I ever knew was Christianity, so that was my comfort zone. The more I learned, though, the more I realized it was nonsense. It was depressing for a while, but I got over that, and now that evidence and reasoning has led me away from Christianity, there's no doubt in my mind that it's bunk.

[Aliix]

I didn't even want to deconvert. It was the inevitable outcome of all of the work that I had done, and it snuck up on me.

 

Same here. The only worldview I ever knew was Christianity, so that was my comfort zone. The more I learned, though, the more I realized it was nonsense. It was depressing for a while, but I got over that, and now that evidence and reasoning has led me away from Christianity, there's no doubt in my mind that it's bunk.

 

This sounds remarkably similar to how I felt and, in numerous ways, what I am currently dealing with. Religion, especially if one is extremely involved in it, seems to occupy a space in one's mind where other elements should have taken over; providing a more sound and rational foundation for belief, so when the imaginary world where Jesus(and all the concepts of good and evil which are derivative of the Bible) exists collapses everything is disturbed.

 

Also, I am extremely interested in a good resource which could explain how the Bible borrows from prior myths, legends, religions, etc. Do you know where I could find a reliable source for such information?

[Ouroboros]

Thanks! I still can't believe I took so damned long! I had the facts right before me, and any single line of reasoning lead to the same conclusion - that there could be no God. But I believed anyway.

It took me 30 years.

 

I think the underlying reason why a person continues to believe, is not the evidence, or the arguments, but rather that they want to believe. They want it to be true for whatever reasons (most likely emotional, but perhaps also they want things to make sense in a chaotic world).

 

So when the emotions and the need is gone, then the reason is gone, then the wall falls down. In my case I can say it took about 6 years of slow deterioration, caused by a difficult time in my family's life. I needed God really badly during that time, but I couldn't feel that God was helping me one little bit. He didn't help my family either. And when I realized that I loved my family more than God, then I started to doubt big time. And still I was fighting against losing my faith, but one day, just like you, it was "oh, damn, I don't believe anymore." It was like a cold shower. A sudden burst of icy cold water in my mind. And I remember it so well, standing in front of the mirror in the bathroom, looking at myself, saying, "I don't believe." And to be sure I didn't do something stupid, I prayed, I asked God to give me faith because my faith was gone. But no answer. Still no answer. And I have frequently asked Christians that come here to pray, and they say they do, but still nothing. I have even prayed a couple of times, as a bet with them, and still nothing.

 

I didn't even want to deconvert. It was the inevitable outcome of all of the work that I had done, and it snuck up on me.

Same here, except I didn't do any work to get there. It was just life experiences I couldn't avoid. Problems happening to my family, constantly, repeatedly, insistently, and I couldn't hear God's voice of comfort or see any help. We felt we lived in Hell. I felt like Job. But we were tested for years, and years, and years, not just a few months like Job. And I didn't give up, but it slowly ate away of what was in there. If God wasn't on my side, then why should I be on his?

 

The one time God goes "poof" and it's to disappear.

That's right. I can't make myself believe again, even if I wanted to. God is in the same category as Santa Claus for me. It's a make-belief for grownups.

[Shyone]

Religion, especially if one is extremely involved in it, seems to occupy a space in one's mind where other elements should have taken over; providing a more sound and rational foundation for belief, so when the imaginary world where Jesus(and all the concepts of good and evil which are derivative of the Bible) exists collapses everything is disturbed.

Well put! And the description you give also shows why Christians can't absorb what is necessary to understand; the space where knowledge should go is occupied with absurd beliefs.

 

Also, I am extremely interested in a good resource which could explain how the Bible borrows from prior myths, legends, religions, etc. Do you know where I could find a reliable source for such information?

I was just poking around some old literature and books about archeology and ancient cultures when I found the passages that correspond to biblical passages, and the books were even written by Christians! I'm sure there is something specifically about ancient texts and the Bible, and I'll look for it, but you may be on your own there.

 

The book mentioned (in this thread?) by E.Wallis Budge on Babylonian History and Myths was the best I think. He does note the similarity of passages and correlates them with Bible passages. His attitude, however, was "The monotheism of the Babylonians is less sublime than the Christian monotheism." Ugh! Talk about being blinded.

[Shyone]

 

I think the underlying reason why a person continues to believe, is not the evidence, or the arguments, but rather that they want to believe. They want it to be true for whatever reasons (most likely emotional, but perhaps also they want things to make sense in a chaotic world).

Well, I would still like to believe. But I can't, so it's not just desire. There is some crucial threshhold that one crosses where the beliefs cannot be maintained. Like when I stopped believing in Santa Claus.

 

<snip>

And still I was fighting against losing my faith, but one day, just like you, it was "oh, damn, I don't believe anymore." It was like a cold shower. A sudden burst of icy cold water in my mind. And I remember it so well, standing in front of the mirror in the bathroom, looking at myself, saying, "I don't believe." And to be sure I didn't do something stupid, I prayed, I asked God to give me faith because my faith was gone. But no answer. Still no answer. And I have frequently asked Christians that come here to pray, and they say they do, but still nothing. I have even prayed a couple of times, as a bet with them, and still nothing.

I know part of my mind was saying, "It Can't be wrong!" Everyone I knew believed. There were bulidings and history; but it was like the story of the emperor's new clothes.

 

I didn't do any work to get there. It was just life experiences I couldn't avoid. Problems happening to my family, constantly, repeatedly, insistently, and I couldn't hear God's voice of comfort or see any help. We felt we lived in Hell. I felt like Job. But we were tested for years, and years, and years, not just a few months like Job. And I didn't give up, but it slowly ate away of what was in there. If God wasn't on my side, then why should I be on his?

 

The one time God goes "poof" and it's to disappear.

That's right. I can't make myself believe again, even if I wanted to. God is in the same category as Santa Claus for me. It's a make-belief for grownups.

The "work" I did wasn't really work. I just read, I was curious, and I put the information into a context, but the context that it produced was the absence of God. So there you go.

[dagnarus]

Thanks! I still can't believe I took so damned long! I had the facts right before me, and any single line of reasoning lead to the same conclusion - that there could be no God. But I believed anyway.

It took me 30 years.

 

I think the underlying reason why a person continues to believe, is not the evidence, or the arguments, but rather that they want to believe. They want it to be true for whatever reasons (most likely emotional, but perhaps also they want things to make sense in a chaotic world).

 

I think another key reason is that Christianity also sets up a situation where certain key things must be absolutely true, and if you don't believe their true you'll go to hell for all eternity. The first leads you to make all your reasoning from the a priori assumption of Christianities truth, the second discourages you from entertaining any doubt, after all if your wrong about other things the worst thing which could happens is that you could die, here it's a lot worse. A nasty trap.

 

So when the emotions and the need is gone, then the reason is gone, then the wall falls down. In my case I can say it took about 6 years of slow deterioration, caused by a difficult time in my family's life. I needed God really badly during that time, but I couldn't feel that God was helping me one little bit. He didn't help my family either. And when I realized that I loved my family more than God, then I started to doubt big time. And still I was fighting against losing my faith, but one day, just like you, it was "oh, damn, I don't believe anymore." It was like a cold shower. A sudden burst of icy cold water in my mind. And I remember it so well, standing in front of the mirror in the bathroom, looking at myself, saying, "I don't believe." And to be sure I didn't do something stupid, I prayed, I asked God to give me faith because my faith was gone. But no answer. Still no answer. And I have frequently asked Christians that come here to pray, and they say they do, but still nothing. I have even prayed a couple of times, as a bet with them, and still nothing.

 

I didn't even want to deconvert. It was the inevitable outcome of all of the work that I had done, and it snuck up on me.

Same here, except I didn't do any work to get there. It was just life experiences I couldn't avoid. Problems happening to my family, constantly, repeatedly, insistently, and I couldn't hear God's voice of comfort or see any help. We felt we lived in Hell. I felt like Job. But we were tested for years, and years, and years, not just a few months like Job. And I didn't give up, but it slowly ate away of what was in there. If God wasn't on my side, then why should I be on his?

 

I remember before leaving being somewhat the same position but to a lesser extent. But more for me it was looking at other people who had been in this position for years without relief. I found that I was more terrified of my eventual fate if I remained than the supposed divine punishment if I left.

 

The one time God goes "poof" and it's to disappear.

That's right. I can't make myself believe again, even if I wanted to. God is in the same category as Santa Claus for me. It's a make-belief for grownups.

Yeah, recently I've come to the same conclusion, short of a brain injury I don't think I could ever truly belief again.

[rocksandstuff]

I have wondered what it would be like to have had the questions I had before the Internet was around. I guess you could say the same thing about the news groups. It would have been so hard to leave fundamentalism before that I think, one would feel so much more alone in the world. Thanks for posting, you offer a unique perspective in that regard.

 

"Specifically, the gradual accrual of information in multiple fields that mutually reinforce the concept of a naturalistic universe was, for me, irreversible."

 

I've thought about that. A worldview is made up of a multitude of interpreted evidences. We look for confirmation of our worldview in the evidences, and either ignore the evidences that don't fit, interpret them differently, or change our worldview in response. Over time, with the accumulation of evidences, our worldview becomes firmer and firmer. For me, as I "matured" as a Christian, the Christianity of my (relative) youth faded, with supernatural explainations for events being replaced by naturalistic ones or a greater "mystery of God" involved. God became more and more detached from my world. It is this body of evidence which makes it difficult to imagine going back.

 

I think of evolution in the same way. What was once a theory is not considered fact in the mainstream because of the accrual of evidence. New evidences that do not fit are much less likely to sway the general theory because it has been established. Biblical archeology is becoming the same way. Where once a new piece of information could change the historical theories dramatically, there are now a much more immovable theories, supported by a much larger body of evidence.

[Shyone]

I have wondered what it would be like to have had the questions I had before the Internet was around. I guess you could say the same thing about the news groups. It would have been so hard to leave fundamentalism before that I think, one would feel so much more alone in the world. Thanks for posting, you offer a unique perspective in that regard.

"Before the internet" we had "books." It was the same, but it took a long time because I didn't have any reason to be looking. Almost everything I learned I learned for reasons unrelated to religion. Curiosity killed the god.

 

"Specifically, the gradual accrual of information in multiple fields that mutually reinforce the concept of a naturalistic universe was, for me, irreversible."

 

I've thought about that. A worldview is made up of a multitude of interpreted evidences. We look for confirmation of our worldview in the evidences, and either ignore the evidences that don't fit, interpret them differently, or change our worldview in response. Over time, with the accumulation of evidences, our worldview becomes firmer and firmer. For me, as I "matured" as a Christian, the Christianity of my (relative) youth faded, with supernatural explainations for events being replaced by naturalistic ones or a greater "mystery of God" involved. God became more and more detached from my world. It is this body of evidence which makes it difficult to imagine going back.

 

Quite true. I was actually looking for "evidence" of God, or some verification of basic religious doctrine such as prophecy, external manipulation of events, etc. Sometimes you think you find it, but then it could be coincidence or something else.

 

I think of evolution in the same way. What was once a theory is not considered fact in the mainstream because of the accrual of evidence. New evidences that do not fit are much less likely to sway the general theory because it has been established. Biblical archeology is becoming the same way. Where once a new piece of information could change the historical theories dramatically, there are now a much more immovable theories, supported by a much larger body of evidence.

Right. The God hypothesis just becomes increasingly unlikely and irrelevant until it vanishes.

[rocksandstuff]

"Before the internet" we had "books." It was the same, but it took a long time because I didn't have any reason to be looking. Almost everything I learned I learned for reasons unrelated to religion."

 

Yes, exactly. I was at that point for a long time myself. When I actually started reading about religion critically it was because I had essentially made up my mind from reading the non-religious material. But the part that would have been lacking for me would have been the ease of obtaining materials. Maybe I would have checked something out of the library at that point, but it would have been hard, I would have been doing it secretly. And also I might have felt like I was crazy, the only one experiencing doubts like I had. It was amazing to go online and see that there were many people who had experienced the exact same thing I did, which was a real consolation when I was feeling so depressed and alone.

[Shyone]

"Before the internet" we had "books." It was the same, but it took a long time because I didn't have any reason to be looking. Almost everything I learned I learned for reasons unrelated to religion."

 

Yes, exactly. I was at that point for a long time myself. When I actually started reading about religion critically it was because I had essentially made up my mind from reading the non-religious material. But the part that would have been lacking for me would have been the ease of obtaining materials. Maybe I would have checked something out of the library at that point, but it would have been hard, I would have been doing it secretly. And also I might have felt like I was crazy, the only one experiencing doubts like I had. It was amazing to go online and see that there were many people who had experienced the exact same thing I did, which was a real consolation when I was feeling so depressed and alone.

Yes, it was a lonely journey. It was like the dark ages, with no guidance, no "atheist books", and just the world and nature as my guide.

 

Ironically, it was the religious books that mainly made me suspicious that something was afoot, but I had no idea how big the lie was.

 

There wasn't much else. Science books. I was fortunate to have grown up before the Creationist movement became so vocal. We were taught evolution and it made sense. It was accepted without hesitation. How could you argue with fossils?

 

The final two straws were the Bible (which I didn't read entirely until I was about 32 or so) and ancient history. I collected ancient coins, and read history, so it wasn't much to extend the process to the study of the Bible.

 

Then the whole scheme collapsed. End of story.