Purple Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 .. a dangerous past time, I know. At some point in my deconversion from fundamentalist Christianity I had to come to grips with the word liberal, and the word evil not being synonymous. I can't say I was raised to think so, like many people I met while in Fundamental Christianity or many I have met since leaving. No, I was not taught liberals were evil, perse, by my family. My parents are not at all religious, but they were conservatives that believe liberals are at best misguided. So it came as a shock to me when I started hearing people, Christian people, seemingly devout Christian people talking about liberalism as a good thing, or at least benign. The thing is, now, I will say I do not have a problem with people of any faith, creed, religion or personal deity relationship. No, be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Pagan, whatever, just don't be a fundie. "Fundies are the problem" I say, "it's not Christians I don't like, no it's fundamentalists." Thing is I've been thinking about that too. Fanatisim is bad, I really believe it is, but, can I say all fundementalists are bad people? Would it be right to hate "those people" ? I'm not sure. I was one, I knew, and know a lot of people who see themselves as fundies, some, yes are hateful, damaging people. Can I lump all fundementalist in that boat though? Even with fundamentalist I am not in the habit of saying I hate, and I no longer, in any serious manner, use the label evil, I don't really believe in "evil" exactly. I have though, painted fundementalists in some rather unpleasent lights, and I've used a broad brush to do so. Is that just as wrong as when I was a sold out for Christ fundementalist and I called liberalism evil? Is it fair? I don't have any answers, just questions and meanderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 To me, each individual needs to be judged on their own merits. That being said, however, there are some things that will tend to draw people of a certain leaning, and fundies are no exception. In order to be a fundie, a person has to have a certain group of characteristics. Are these evil/bad in and of themselves - no. But there is a good chance that in order for a person to have those group of characteristics, they are likely to have the same ones that make fundies seem so bad. But they are not ALL like that. I think of our chiropractor for example - he's a great guy. Period. He's fun to be around, and is a good person. He is a fundie, although does have some liberal leanings compared to most fundies I know, but overall, he's fundie. He is a great person though, no matter what his religious leanings. That said, if I took a random selection of people from his church (my old church sad to say) a majority wouldn't be "bad people" but close-mindedness and bigotry and hypocrisy would fit the majority. So, I guess in a way, I'd say you're right, but also that you're wrong....it's seldom as black and white as we tend to see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Fundies, by in large, tend to be the most bigoted, the most ignorant, the most narrow-minded, and the most repressive people out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Fundamentalists are not bad. Zealots are bad. It's the people who are willing to do anything in the furtherance of their faith that scare me, not the merely closed-minded. Most fundies won't hurt a fly. They'll pray for Jesus to fry the heathen, but they won't hurt people themselves. But zealots? They'll saw you in half in the service of their "god," and feel good about it afterwords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 The real problem with fundamentalists is they continue to perpetuate a lie. If you cannot see the harm in this lie, I cannot help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 So, I guess in a way, I'd say you're right, but also that you're wrong....it's seldom as black and white as we tend to see it! It's seldom black and white I think is what I've been thinking. It would be easy for me to just lump all fundies in the same ignorant, bigoted, holier than thou package, but as with your chiropractor, that is not always the case. Part of what got me thinking about it to, I was speaking to a friend, a fairly new friend, who did't know me when I was a fundie, or even a xian. When I said I had been she said, "No you weren't, you could never have been a fundie, I HATE those people." But I was you see, and although that time of my life often makes me cringe I don't think I was completely bigoted and hate filled. Ignorant, misguided, stupid, yes, but a hate filled bigot? no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 Fundamentalists are not bad. Zealots are bad. It's the people who are willing to do anything in the furtherance of their faith that scare me, not the merely closed-minded. Most fundies won't hurt a fly. They'll pray for Jesus to fry the heathen, but they won't hurt people themselves. But zealots? They'll saw you in half in the service of their "god," and feel good about it afterwords. I agree, I used the word fanatic, but I kind of hinted at the same thing. A lot of fundies never even think about a lot they are being "fundamental" about. They truly think what they believe is all about love, peace, and heaven. It's annoying as all hell, but by and large they aren't horrible people. Then there are fanatics, or zealots, that know. They know the bible, and embrace even the parts that make most Christians cringe, embarrassed, or running to some apologist or Pastor to explain what it "really means". Zealots, no, they embrace eye for an eye, they embrace the subjectification of women, they have no problem with disobediant children being stoned to death, now that's just scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 The real problem with fundamentalists is they continue to perpetuate a lie. If you cannot see the harm in this lie, I cannot help you. Hmmm This is the problem I often have with liberal xians. They give a nod, sometimes, to their more fundie brethren and their more fanitical actions and beliefs by perpetuating the bible and other lies. I can see the harm in the lie, I know first hand the harm the fundamentalist church can do to people, and families. Are we doing ourselves a disservice though if we call a person who is misguided, and isn't a hate filled bigot, a hate filled bigot, merely because of an association with others that are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 .. a dangerous past time, I know. The thing is, now, I will say I do not have a problem with people of any faith, creed, religion or personal deity relationship. No, be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Pagan, whatever, just don't be a fundie. "Fundies are the problem" I say, "it's not Christians I don't like, no it's fundamentalists." Thing is I've been thinking about that too. Fanatisim is bad, I really believe it is, but, can I say all fundementalists are bad people? Would it be right to hate "those people" ? I'm not sure. I don't have any answers, just questions and meanderings. I may be in the minority on this (I usually am, whether being atheist or liberal), but I found Sam Harris to be very perceptive with regard to "moderate" religionists. Specifically, the moderates sit back and don't object to fundy rhetoric or actions regardless of religion. "Why don't the moderate Muslims condemn the Ayatollah...?" "Why don't the moderate Christians object to the push for prayer in [enter inappropriate place]?" Moderates see nothing wrong with their religion, with more religion, or with anything that promotes their own brand of religion. It's "Us vs. Them", and the moderates will come down publically on the side of the fundamentalists if their is a confrontation. Moderates are the enablers that passively allow the Taliban to control their lives, vote for "good Christian People" like Bush and the Kansas Board of Education. And it's those, like Michelle Bachman, who are the ones pushing a fundy agenda that, while the voters may not like, they will support because she's religious. Hate is not the approprate emotion. Maybe fear, or at least concern, but only for the encroachment of religion into our political arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Hate should be reserved for your enemies, your personal enemies. Oh and Dick Cheney. It's too much work to hate a whole class of people. If you're serious about it you'll have to join a militia, and tramp around in the woods shouting, "bang bang I got you, you dirty fundie!" It is much nicer to just sit at your computer and drink coffee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 26, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted August 26, 2009 The real problem with fundamentalists is they continue to perpetuate a lie. If you cannot see the harm in this lie, I cannot help you. Bingo! I also appreciate the difference between a fundamentalist and a zealot, but fundamentalism is the breeding ground for zealotry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I agree that you should only approach people individually and not lump them all in one group. I've come across plenty of liberal Christians and even some atheists who can be just as closed minded and judgmental as the most hardcore fundamentalist Christian. On the other hand, although they're not fundamentalists, I know several conservative Christians who are some of the sweetest, most open minded, and non-judgmental people I know and even though we don't agree on everything with religion and politics, we're all still close friends and I enjoy the occasional religious debate with them. It's important to approach people for who they are individually and not automatically make assumptions about them based solely on their religious or political affiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The trouble with fundies is that they maintain a 16th century mindset in 21st century society. "Today's Christians do not burn us because of their love for us. It's because they lack faith." - Friederich Nietzsche. Times have changed, and fundies have had to adapt. There's probably no chance that they're going to kick off another 30 Year War in Europe or in North America. Still, there is that kernel of retrograde piety, zealotry, superstition, and so on. Most Westerners got over it long ago, and even in the days when the Church's grip was unchallenged, there were still plenty of people in the West who lived as they pleased while paying lip service to the church. Of course, you always had those who took that shit really seriously, but as the centuries have progressed their proportion in the West has been dwindling. Most of their descendents have moved on and gotten with the program (look at how secular and liberal New England is, for example). Today's fundies are the hold-outs, the die-hards; they just won't let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 "Today's Christians do not burn us because of their love for us. It's because they lack faith." - Friederich Nietzsche. I must disagree with Nietzsche here. Today's Christians do not burn us because they lack power. That could change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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