The Perfect Religion

[Shyone]

Religions die out for a number of reasons including obvious failure to keep promises (protection fro enemies, crops, disease, etc). They may also fade away because they cease to seem appealing compared with competing religions. I think that internal consistencies that invalidate the core teachings, once they become commonly known, could lead people to question or leave the religion (think Christianity).

 

The ideal religious meme should have several qualities, some of which are mandatory and other which may be considered optional.

 

Mandatory

1. Attractive to new adherents

2. Keeps members in the fold

 

Optional

1. Long tradition (or manufactured long tradition that is unfalsifiable but “reasonable” to both new and old members)

2. Perceived objective benefits (natural or supernatural or both)

3. Perceived punishments (natural or supernatural or both) that will not scare away new members or old members

4. Internal logic and coherent set of beliefs (preferably that make some sense)

5. Hierarchy of advancement versus set hierarchy

6. Literature (perhaps Sacred Writings)

7. Others?

 

I have examined several current religions and some old religions and heresies, and the following have some of these characteristics, and I am sure may others may fit even better:

1. Marcionite heresy (Marcionism)

2. Zoroastrianism

3. Taoism

4. Scientology

5. Mormonism (falsifiable)

6. Unification Church

7. Church of the New Song (CONS)

[The last is interesting: It is a prison religion started by inmates. The acronym says it all. They have a book, rituals during work hours, and dietary requirement of a sacrament of Filet Mignon and sherry on Fridays.)

 

I would personally not be able to swallow any religion that relied heavily on the supernatural, but are thetans natural, or supernatural? (besides being imaginary and unverifiable)

 

Questions:

Has the perfect religion been created, or is it yet to be created?

What do you think it would (should) look like?

If you think the perfect religion has been invented, what is it?

What religion would you be willing to follow (if any) and why?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I wouldn't follow any kind of religion, though I enjoy learning about them and exploring them. But doing something "religiously" always seems to destroy what good there was to begin with. It reminds me of the Dune books, the 'religion' of Muab'dib turned into an evil and dangerous thing though the intent was pure. Or the followers of the Dragon Reborn in The Wheel of Time. Sorry if you haven't read them and don't know what I am talking about. I see it not only in literature, but also in real life. The good things in religion don't need religion to exist and the bad things about religion would exist less without its influence. If that makes any sense... Even a "perfect" religious meme would eventually succumb to the corruption of power. I could be wrong, but by the examples thus far it seems to be the trend.

[Shyone]

I wouldn't follow any kind of religion, though I enjoy learning about them and exploring them. But doing something "religiously" always seems to destroy what good there was to begin with. It reminds me of the Dune books, the 'religion' of Muab'dib turned into an evil and dangerous thing though the intent was pure. Or the followers of the Dragon Reborn in The Wheel of Time. Sorry if you haven't read them and don't know what I am talking about. I see it not only in literature, but also in real life. The good things in religion don't need religion to exist and the bad things about religion would exist less without its influence. If that makes any sense... Even a "perfect" religious meme would eventually succumb to the corruption of power. I could be wrong, but by the examples thus far it seems to be the trend.

I agree, and in fact, some of the religions I listed have already been "corrupted." But that's sort of the point. I am trying to anticipate what the "next big thing" will be, regardless of how harmful it could become.

 

Or, if someone designed a religion to avoid abuses, what would it look like?

 

I'm not much of a joiner myself since leaving the church, but I'm amazed at the things people do join. I wonder if there will be some kind of benevolent religion that has such a meme that everyone will want to join. I wonder if there will be a religion where everyone will have to join (wow, what a meme!).

 

I have read Dune, but not The Wheel of Time.

 

Perhaps the key to Dune is that there is truly power associated with the religion. Demonstrable power that one gets from being in the religion (or is it only the leaders that have power?). I think that's the power of Scientology. They feel they offer something to people they can't have without that religion (other than weird beliefs).

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I suppose I got confused by your term of "perfect" religion. Perfect meaning it couldn't be defeated, right? When religions start mandating that everyone must join, when it becomes political, its usually well past its time of corruption. And I can't think of a religion that everyone would want to join. Enough people are the sort to not do something if it is popular, out of desire to be unique if nothing else. The tendency of religions to divide is too great to overcome, the tendency of those already in one to remain is also too great for a new one to take over. Without say massive bloodshed and then global takeover. Which is also bad.

 

A while ago I had the thought that for there to be world peace, everyone would have to end up being pretty much the same, giving up culture, language, religious differences. I don't know that it would be worth it. A religious force that brought it would seem benevolent, but plenty of people would rather be free than safe. Thus utopia fails and becomes dystopia. I just think human psychology is too complex for a perfect meme to exist this way and affect everyone. But I am of but limited knowledge and very well could be wrong. This is a thought provoking post.

[Shyone]

I suppose I got confused by your term of "perfect" religion. Perfect meaning it couldn't be defeated, right?

Right.

 

When religions start mandating that everyone must join, when it becomes political, its usually well past its time of corruption. And I can't think of a religion that everyone would want to join. Enough people are the sort to not do something if it is popular, out of desire to be unique if nothing else. The tendency of religions to divide is too great to overcome, the tendency of those already in one to remain is also too great for a new one to take over. Without say massive bloodshed and then global takeover. Which is also bad.

 

Excellent points. Islam has some neat meme things. Claims to be a religion of peace, offers social, political and financial opportunities not available to non-muslims in muslim societies, They'll kill you if you ever leave, and the usual religious stuff like "paradise". It has a text that prohibits alteration (necessary, but ultimately self defeating), and it authorizes force against "infidels" - which was great during the physical conquest phase. Islam was smart when they took only a few books from the OT and wrote new stuff.

 

Being bad (massive bloodshed, global takeover), doesn't mean they won't ultimately be successful as a world dominating religion. And that scares the shit out of me.

 

A while ago I had the thought that for there to be world peace, everyone would have to end up being pretty much the same, giving up culture, language, religious differences. I don't know that it would be worth it. A religious force that brought it would seem benevolent, but plenty of people would rather be free than safe. Thus utopia fails and becomes dystopia. I just think human psychology is too complex for a perfect meme to exist this way and affect everyone. But I am of but limited knowledge and very well could be wrong.

 

I think about it because it could happen, and in a way it is happening. But a new religion may yet appear with the necessary ingredients to tranform mankind, especially in this global age.

 

 

This is a thought provoking post.

 

Thank you! I wasn't sure if religious memes would be of interest to anyone, but the Christian meme, as silly and self-contradictory as it is, has essentially taken control over the most powerful country in the world. And yet, I think it is fading, yielding to...something new.

 

Or has the world seen the last of the "Great Religions"? It may not exist yet (I can't imagine everyone wanting to be a Moonie), but I think someone is thinking about it, planning it, writing the texts...

[Guest Davka]

Questions:

Has the perfect religion been created, or is it yet to be created?

It is yet to be created. And if i can tear myself away from playing Unreal Tournament long enough, I will create it.

 

What do you think it would (should) look like?

It should incorporate all existing religions and be based on a tradition of peace and love. It should explain that proper exegesis of all religious scriptures will lead to the same inexorable conclusion: We are all to be tolerant of one another's beliefs, love one another, recycle, eat green, and buy lots and lots of copies of the Divine Book^TM.

[Shyone]

Questions:

Has the perfect religion been created, or is it yet to be created?

It is yet to be created. And if i can tear myself away from playing Unreal Tournament long enough, I will create it.

 

What do you think it would (should) look like?

It should incorporate all existing religions and be based on a tradition of peace and love. It should explain that proper exegesis of all religious scriptures will lead to the same inexorable conclusion: We are all to be tolerant of one another's beliefs, love one another, recycle, eat green, and buy lots and lots of copies of the Divine Book^TM.

Sounds like Bahai sort of. You mean I can't eat my neighbor's sacred cow?

 

Well, if you write it, I'll sign up for it.

 

Uh, what's the catch? Can I get out once I'm in? Just in case...

[NotBlinded]

I just wanted to say that #2 under Mandatory is a killer in itself if it is going to do any good to anyone. I'll have to look at your topic more later, but I think a good religion will lead the people into an understanding, make sure they are happy and understand their role (or whatever good word to use there) in life and society and send them blessedly on their way. Religion isn't supposed to make people dependent, it's supposed to set them free.

[OpheliaGinger]

No religion could be perfect because it is created by humans. It may start off with the best of intent but will soon be corrupted to suit those in power and keep those beneath then subservient.

[Shyone]

I just wanted to say that #2 under Mandatory is a killer in itself if it is going to do any good to anyone. I'll have to look at your topic more later, but I think a good religion will lead the people into an understanding, make sure they are happy and understand their role (or whatever good word to use there) in life and society and send them blessedly on their way. Religion isn't supposed to make people dependent, it's supposed to set them free.

Ah, but good and bad are not the issue. What will it be? What is the "best" (most successful) meme (existent or not). You have to admit the success of Islam, and that religion, regardless of what they say ("There shall be no compulsion in Religion"), is mandatory where Islam is Dominant.

 

Would you voluntarily join such a religion? No, and neither would most people barring some really good stuff you get from the religion, but then if it compels one to join, that's not voluntary.

 

So I would say that a successful religion should avoid the appearance of compulsion (like Islam). People might join if they didn't feel compelled.

 

"Perfection" can be viewed many ways; A nice religion that fails to attract or keep members is perfect by one subjective standard. A nice "appearing" religion that attracts many people and refuses to let them leave (by threat of earthly or supernatural consequences) might be considered perfect - the perfect trap.

 

Is is possible to have a nice religion that everyone would join and stay without some form of compulsion? My cynical mind can't conceieve of how that might be, but then maybe I haven't heard of anything like that. In a sense, even losing one's friends by leaving a religion "hurts", so that is a method of retaining members.

 

Is Facebook a religion? Just asking.

[Deva]

I have an idea what the perfect religion is, but I can't explain it. So I guess if it can't be explained, it wouldn't be perfect though, right?

 

Hey I think the Buddha had that problem. But then he tried to explain it.

[Shyone]

I have an idea what the perfect religion is, but I can't explain it. So I guess if it can't be explained, it wouldn't be perfect though, right?

 

Hey I think the Buddha had that problem. But then he tried to explain it.

Nope, I think you're right. The perfect religion is beyond explanation. That's what makes it perfect.

 

I've never looked too much into Buddhism, but from what I've heard it doesn't sound too bad.

[dagnarus]

What exactly constitutes a religion? Is it the idea, or an idea married to an organization (I.E. is the christian religion the doctrines or the church with it's doctrines used to sustain the organization)?

 

What makes an idea a religious idea? Does the concept of one or more of, God, afterlife, spiritual realm required. Would the somewhat weak idea of god possessed by most who have never really considered religion suffice as a religion?

 

If some organization need also be involved, could nationalism be considered a religion? From memory North Korea has some sort of nationalist religion which to at least some degree deifies Kim Jong Ill. Would this count? If so then would a sort of Orwellian 1984 scenario count as a religion? If you consider religion as a system which idea/system which seeks a continued propagation of itself it should probably fit that description, furthermore from what I know of 1984 (I haven't actually read the book) It seemed to have entrenched itself in a position where it was completely unassailable.

[Shyone]

What exactly constitutes a religion? Is it the idea, or an idea married to an organization (I.E. is the christian religion the doctrines or the church with it's doctrines used to sustain the organization)?

You know, I really don't know. Is nationalism a religion? Politics? I suppose it's a "system of beliefs" that inspires loyalty.

 

What makes an idea a religious idea? Does the concept of one or more of, God, afterlife, spiritual realm required. Would the somewhat weak idea of god possessed by most who have never really considered religion suffice as a religion?

 

I don't know these are required. Buddhism, Confusianism, Taoism, Jainism - some with gods and ghosts, some maybe without, but still religions. "God" could even be a peripheral concept rather than the dominant one.

 

 

If some organization need also be involved, could nationalism be considered a religion?

 

I wrote the above before I realized this sentence was in your reply, so we're on the same page. Literally.

 

 

From memory North Korea has some sort of nationalist religion which to at least some degree deifies Kim Jong Ill. Would this count? If so then would a sort of Orwellian 1984 scenario count as a religion? If you consider religion as a system which idea/system which seeks a continued propagation of itself it should probably fit that description, furthermore from what I know of 1984 (I haven't actually read the book) It seemed to have entrenched itself in a position where it was completely unassailable.

 

You should read the book. It's amazing, and unfortunately prescient.

 

Unassailable. That, and a controlled society, would make for one Hell of a religion. Literally.

[NotBlinded]

I just wanted to say that #2 under Mandatory is a killer in itself if it is going to do any good to anyone. I'll have to look at your topic more later, but I think a good religion will lead the people into an understanding, make sure they are happy and understand their role (or whatever good word to use there) in life and society and send them blessedly on their way. Religion isn't supposed to make people dependent, it's supposed to set them free.

Ah, but good and bad are not the issue. What will it be? What is the "best" (most successful) meme (existent or not). You have to admit the success of Islam, and that religion, regardless of what they say ("There shall be no compulsion in Religion"), is mandatory where Islam is Dominant.

 

Would you voluntarily join such a religion? No, and neither would most people barring some really good stuff you get from the religion, but then if it compels one to join, that's not voluntary.

 

So I would say that a successful religion should avoid the appearance of compulsion (like Islam). People might join if they didn't feel compelled.

 

"Perfection" can be viewed many ways; A nice religion that fails to attract or keep members is perfect by one subjective standard. A nice "appearing" religion that attracts many people and refuses to let them leave (by threat of earthly or supernatural consequences) might be considered perfect - the perfect trap.

 

Is is possible to have a nice religion that everyone would join and stay without some form of compulsion? My cynical mind can't conceieve of how that might be, but then maybe I haven't heard of anything like that. In a sense, even losing one's friends by leaving a religion "hurts", so that is a method of retaining members.

 

Is Facebook a religion? Just asking.

 

Damn...I mistook "perfect" for "good".

 

I don't want anymore "perfect" religions.

 

(Now I can't find the little barfing emoticon)